chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 14, 2019 14:39:30 GMT -5
Every thing Shane said! This is how guard breeds get bad raps. Nothing obviously bad, just a slow progression. And, as great as they are, they ARE fundamentally a guarding breed. I love mine dearly but I train and handle mine always keeping in mind that I keep alpha and strengthen thier bond of where they belong in the pecking order. As in, we play tug of war and always end with a win for me. And never even play it if someone is being a bully. I had one dog that I couldn't play tug of war with as he was so dominant. you posted as I took my time writing mine, so I'm just seeing yours now. I have to laugh, because my pulling "problem child" is a 95lb female golden retriever. the great danebull is the angel. 🤣
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on May 14, 2019 14:39:32 GMT -5
Every thing Shane said! This is how guard breeds get bad raps. Nothing obviously bad, just a slow progression. And, as great as they are, they ARE fundamentally a guarding breed. I love mine dearly but I train and handle mine always keeping in mind that I keep alpha and strengthen thier bond of where they belong in the pecking order. As in, we play tug of war and always end with a win for me. And never even play it if someone is being a bully. I had one dog that I couldn't play tug of war with as he was so dominant. Yep. When I rescued pit bulls, I always did things like making sure they saw me eat first, before they ate (even if I had to pretend to eat). You HAVE to show them you're the alpha dog.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 14, 2019 14:51:35 GMT -5
andi9899 - Macy is resource guarding you. This is almost certainly caused by the social instability in the house - Thing 1 coming in, then Bear coming in, Bear sometimes going to Thing 1's H/H's parents, coming back. Then they moved out, and moved back in again. This can easily cause anxiety in dogs, and likely what has Macy deciding she needs to resource guard you. A search on "dog resource guarding me" will give you a lot to read, but in addition to the down stay, the other thing that has to happen is that she has to understand that resource guarding you does NOT work. When she behaves that way, she loses you - as in you go to another room or she goes to another room, away from you. It does NOT mean you should then pay extra attention to the other dog (that can actually exacerbate the situation.). You may also try doing dedicated time with each of the dogs, one on one. Do not do this in response to a bad behavior incident, but build something into your schedule. One day each week, for maybe 30 minutes, Macy gets one on one time cuddling with you. On another day, for those same 30 minutes, Jackson gets one on one time cuddling with you. But Macy does need to learn she's not in control of you. And in the meantime, Thing 1 needs to make sure that she's not depending on you for human interaction with Bear. That is her job. This isn't to say that you can't interact with Bear (or that she can't interact with Macy and Jackson), just that Bear's care needs to rest on her. And yes, that might mean Bear gets fed on a different schedule, and such, but it should help Macy understand that you aren't Bear's resource, so she doesn't necessarily have to guard you from him.
The good news (and honestly, there is good news) is that she didn't hurt Bear, and that Bear didn't fight back. Bear yelped - which is part of what puppies do to help each other learn that play is too rough. So Bear's response wasn't aggressive at all, and was completely socially appropriate. That may also help Macy (because it's clear Bear doesn't value you enough to fight for you). It might be more of a problem with Jackson, if her behavior towards him worsens.
If that happens, I honestly think your best bet will be a professional trainer/behaviorist. Thanks! This makes lots of sense! Macy is a very high strung dog and she gets anxious rather quickly. She had also been fine with Bear before he lived with us. She does also not let Bear eat. We leave food out for them all to eat whenever they're hungry. Jackson can eat it most of the time. Bear however cannot. He will eat while she's outside and if she comes back in while he's eating, she will bump him out of the way and he knows better than to challenge her. I'm always telling Thing 1 that she needs to spend more time with her dog instead of dumping him on me since I'm usually home. She doesn't listen. I like the idea of scheduling one on one time with them. Should I be doing that with Bear also, or just the twins? I'm going to buy another baby gate this weekend. Jackson broke one of the ones I had. That way they can eat in separate rooms.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 14, 2019 14:54:18 GMT -5
Every thing Shane said! This is how guard breeds get bad raps. Nothing obviously bad, just a slow progression. And, as great as they are, they ARE fundamentally a guarding breed. I love mine dearly but I train and handle mine always keeping in mind that I keep alpha and strengthen thier bond of where they belong in the pecking order. As in, we play tug of war and always end with a win for me. And never even play it if someone is being a bully. I had one dog that I couldn't play tug of war with as he was so dominant. you posted as I took my time writing mine, so I'm just seeing yours now. I have to laugh, because my pulling "problem child" is a 95lb female golden retriever. the great danebull is the angel. 🤣 Same with the twins. Not pulling, just behavior in general. Jackson does basically what Macy says and will whine rather than challenge her on something.
|
|
tractor
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 15:19:30 GMT -5
Posts: 3,457
|
Post by tractor on May 14, 2019 15:14:45 GMT -5
yeah, I can't work on this with her, she's my midday relief while I'm at work. I wish I could, if I knew it was something we could accomplish in a week, I might be able to WFH for a week, but that's highly unlikely to work so quickly. I'll definitely mention the direction change thing. I kind of remember that from puppy training way back the the golden. thank you! Another thing she can do is wrap the leash around her waste then up (hard to describe, maybe I can find a picture). What this does is result in the leash tightening around her abdomen when she starts to pull. Dogs hate this and quickly learn to walk slow and steady. It’s the same trick most professional dog handlers use. I tried it on Ted and he became very easy to control. Similar to using a harness instead of a neck collar.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 14, 2019 15:29:30 GMT -5
yeah, I can't work on this with her, she's my midday relief while I'm at work. I wish I could, if I knew it was something we could accomplish in a week, I might be able to WFH for a week, but that's highly unlikely to work so quickly. I'll definitely mention the direction change thing. I kind of remember that from puppy training way back the the golden. thank you! Another thing she can do is wrap the leash around her waste then up (hard to describe, maybe I can find a picture). What this does is result in the leash tightening around her abdomen when she starts to pull. Dogs hate this and quickly learn to walk slow and steady. It’s the same trick most professional dog handlers use. I tried it on Ted and he became very easy to control. Similar to using a harness instead of a neck collar. Someone showed me this with Jackson one day and it was a miracle before my very eyes.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 14, 2019 15:46:14 GMT -5
yeah, I can't work on this with her, she's my midday relief while I'm at work. I wish I could, if I knew it was something we could accomplish in a week, I might be able to WFH for a week, but that's highly unlikely to work so quickly. I'll definitely mention the direction change thing. I kind of remember that from puppy training way back the the golden. thank you! Another thing she can do is wrap the leash around her waste then up (hard to describe, maybe I can find a picture). What this does is result in the leash tightening around her abdomen when she starts to pull. Dogs hate this and quickly learn to walk slow and steady. It’s the same trick most professional dog handlers use. I tried it on Ted and he became very easy to control. Similar to using a harness instead of a neck collar. I know exactly what you're describing. we actually used to have Martingale collars (they have a big loop to facilitate running the leash as you describe) until the big scare when the golden caught LD's collar on her lower jaw and was choking him out. I'll mention this to her as well. thank you!
|
|
stillmovingforward
Senior Member
Hanging on by a thread
Joined: Jan 1, 2014 21:52:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,066
Today's Mood: Don't Mess with Me!
Location: Not Sure Yet
|
Post by stillmovingforward on May 14, 2019 20:39:49 GMT -5
Funny thing.... DH's dog is starting this tonight. And he's doing everything wrong..... he's terrible with training dogs. Is a good thing she's an ankle biter. He leaves for vacation soon, I'll whip her into shape before he gets back! Meanwhile, my pibble is being so patient!
|
|
stillmovingforward
Senior Member
Hanging on by a thread
Joined: Jan 1, 2014 21:52:58 GMT -5
Posts: 3,066
Today's Mood: Don't Mess with Me!
Location: Not Sure Yet
|
Post by stillmovingforward on May 14, 2019 20:40:40 GMT -5
They make a harness with a clip in front on the chest to stop pulling. I love mine for the pit!
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on May 15, 2019 9:59:08 GMT -5
andi9899 - I want to start by saying something I should have said yesterday. While I know you feel Macy's reaction to Bear isn't necessarily out of character for her, you were surprised by her reaction to you kicking Thing 1's foot the other night. The number one cause of new/added aggression is dogs is pain and illness. If Macy has any more incidents where her aggression is a surprise to you, please take her to the vet. We ignored this warning sign in Smokey (wrote it off as he was protecting Junebug, his new puppy) and missed a chance to get early treatment for his hemangiosarcoma. I feel bad for saying this, but no, I don't think you should be scheduling 1:1 time with Bear, unless you are committed to Bear becoming your dog. Thing 1 needs to commit 1:1 time with Bear. And I know managing adults (even if they are your kids) living in the house is difficult, buy maybe you make her dedicating a certain number of hours to Bear a week a requirement for the two of them staying with you. If she cannot commit to his care, she needs to commit to finding him a home that can. I've done this. I felt awful about it, but I had to be honest that I could not care for three dogs on my own. As much as I adored my roommate's dog, my roommate was prepping to leave on an around the world bike trip, and her plan could not be to simply leave the dog with me, or to try and guilt her ex (who had kept their three other pets, plus had added two new ones with her new partner) into taking the dog. My roommate had to be the one to find a home for her dog, or choose which shelter to surrender her to. I hated every second of those conversations, but they were necessary. And, her dog ended up in a great home that has a ton of time and love for her. I would also suggest taking the dogs off of free feeding at this time, at least while Bear is in the house. Set up a feeding schedule (we do twice a day). I highly suggest feeding them in different areas, out of sight of one another, because it sounds like Macy is also resource guarding food. This will serve multiple. 1) It takes away the food as a resource to guard. 2) It reinforces your position as the boss in the house, because food now specifically comes from you, on your schedule. 3) It makes it so much easier to control their weight - because the resource guarding dog isn't eating food just to keep the others from getting it, and the other dogs aren't overeating in the moments they get to eat, in anticipation of going a long time without being able to eat. 4) By feeding them in different spaces, they each learn that their food is their food. There is no need for Macy to guard food, because she's the only one in the room where her food is. And Jackson and Bear are then also free to eat because they don't have to be worried about Macy coming to take their food. I have done this switch, from free feeding to scheduled feeding, and it really only took a day for the dogs to get it.
chiver78 - There are a lot of different harnesses and head leads that can help with dogs who pull. The Gentle Leader is a very popular head lead, and I see it a LOT on Goldens, actually. It works on the same theory as halters/reins on horses, in that it controls their head. If the dog starts pulling, it pulls their head down and back, which, given that dogs lead with their head, stops the pulling. However, on really smart, really motivated dogs, it does not end up working. Despite Gentle Leader's claim that dogs can't take it off, dogs can. Our Aussie pulled, a lot. We tried a Gentle Leader. He HATED having things on his face. And he could honestly remove the part that went over his nose, while on a walk, in less than 30 seconds of me being distracted. We learned not to put his on first in the house, because not on the walk/leash, it took him less than 10 seconds. By the time the leash was clipped to Smokey, Moree would have the nose piece of the Gentle Leader off. So, we moved to the Easy Walker harness, which has an O ring in the center of the chest to attach the leash to, and when the dog pulls, this provides pressure against the chest and helps reduce pulling. These work really well for most dogs. They do not work well for dogs whose legs are quite short compared to the breadth of their chest. So on our Beagle, who has the build that makes you go - oh, that's right, Bulldogs were a foundation breed for Beagles - the way the Easy Walker gaps against the chest when she pulls means that her front legs can easily slip through the gap, rendering the harness useless. So for the "squat" dog breeds - Bulldogs, Bassetts, some Beagles, etc, the Easy Walker isn't the best option. But again, they are incredibly popular here, and I know a lot of people with big dogs who swear by them. So either of those might be a helpful solution to easing the burden of the pulling dog while working on the overall training. (I say this having not trained either of my current dogs not to pull, so I know, sometimes the "mechanical" solution is the only solution you have time for.)Edited for spelling and punctuation.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 15, 2019 10:51:00 GMT -5
Thanks, Shane! I also was thinking that if the growling continues that I would take her to the vet. I have to take them soon to get their nails clipped, so I was going to ask about it anyway. I was just going to move it up if she did it again.
I think the feeding thing is a good idea. I'm going to have to tell Thing 1 about it and figure out a schedule that works for everyone. Macy is a tad overweight lately and this is probably why. I've free fed them since I got them and she was never overweight until recently.
I do need to get Thing 1 onboard with some of the new things that will have to happen to show Macy that her behavior is not ok. This is going to have to be a team effort or she's going to have to figure something else out for her and Bear because I'm not willing for anyone to get hurt.
|
|
tractor
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 15:19:30 GMT -5
Posts: 3,457
|
Post by tractor on May 16, 2019 8:37:44 GMT -5
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 21, 2019 11:31:26 GMT -5
My babies turn 3 today! Yay twins!
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 22, 2019 7:44:47 GMT -5
anyone do doggy daycare? I just found a well-recommended place near one of the commuter rail stops I could be using starting in a couple weeks. they don't breed restrict, either, which is huge. LD is part pittie. (yes, people suck)
it would be more expensive than the current dog walker, but it would be all day vs 45-60min. I wouldn't do it every day, either. just curious if any of you have done it, and would you recommend it?
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 22, 2019 8:09:12 GMT -5
Absolutely do daycare. I take the twins occasionally and I love it! I'm actually looking for one closer to home now. It keeps them active and social. And when you come home, you have an exhausted puppy. Win win!
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 22, 2019 9:00:15 GMT -5
I submitted a request for a "temperament trial" so I guess we'll see what they say. I just pulled the place up on a map, it's about 10min past the commuter rail station. oops. that's fine, though, to know they are set for a whole day? no brainer.
currently I'm paying $27/day for the woman from Rover.com. a full day for two dogs at the daycare is $50. I can swap one day of walker for one day at daycare, and then WFH another day, and it will be a wash.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 22, 2019 9:25:39 GMT -5
I think they'll love it and you will too.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 22, 2019 15:42:20 GMT -5
Just ordered 2 Gentle Leader head collars for the twins. Let's see if it works. Jackson is a special kind of stubborn and will still pull even with the prong collar. I'll report back.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 22, 2019 17:30:19 GMT -5
the dog walker used the gentle leader on my golden for the first time today. we had been having her wear it to play in the backyard to adjust to it. I guess it went well. we didn't go for a walk tonight, so I haven't seen it in action yet. but R said she didn't need a prong on LD, since neither of them was pulling. that confirms what I had always thought - he was pulling because she was, she always has. so I guess we will see how this keeps working.
"temperament trial" at doggy daycare is set for Monday, 6/3. I was already planning to WFH after bringing my friend back to the airport for a 6am flight <shudder> so I will just find somewhere near the daycare to hang out. it's apparently a 4h trial.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on May 28, 2019 9:53:39 GMT -5
andi9899 & chiver78 - how are the Gentle Leaders working out?
We went to the dog park yesterday.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 28, 2019 10:13:37 GMT -5
it seems to be working well so far. I haven't had a chance to try it out myself, but have been getting rave reviews from the dog walker. hopefully today is more of the same.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 28, 2019 10:59:50 GMT -5
I haven't tried it on Jackson yet, but Macy is not having it. I put it on her and instead of walking she's thrashing around trying to get it off her. I'm going to try it with Jackson and maybe if he's calm it will make her a little more cooperative. I only tried it for a little bit yesterday since she was not happy. I'll report back.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on May 28, 2019 11:48:51 GMT -5
chiver78 - Yay!
andi9899 - That's how our Aussie reacted. Some dogs just really hate having things on their face/head. (Interestingly enough, one of the ways they used to use to rate a dog's intelligence was to put something over it's head and see how long it took the dog to get it off. That means that dogs that were not particularly bothered by that always rated lower on intelligence.) Because of that, the Gentle Leader just did not end up working for us. He spent all the time it was on trying to get it off - and succeeded getting the bit on his nose off. Because of that, we switched to the Easy Walker harness, and had pretty good results with that.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 28, 2019 12:41:31 GMT -5
Maybe I need tat instead. I'm going to try with Jackson and see what happens. Since they are always together I'm hoping she sees that he's ok with it and lets me try with her. Fingers crossed.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2019 14:38:46 GMT -5
it seems to be working well so far. I haven't had a chance to try it out myself, but have been getting rave reviews from the dog walker. hopefully today is more of the same. Will it fit you?
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,583
|
Post by chiver78 on May 28, 2019 14:51:33 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to try out walking her with that collar on.
|
|
weltschmerz
Community Leader
Joined: Jul 25, 2011 13:37:39 GMT -5
Posts: 38,962
|
Post by weltschmerz on May 28, 2019 17:01:26 GMT -5
I haven't had a chance to try out walking her with that collar on. I should have put a after that post.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on May 29, 2019 9:42:19 GMT -5
Maybe I need tat instead. I'm going to try with Jackson and see what happens. Since they are always together I'm hoping she sees that he's ok with it and lets me try with her. Fingers crossed. With any luck, that will happen. But in my experience, it is the dominant dog's feelings that get passed to the other dog. So in our case, Smokey could not have cared less about the Gentle Leader (but on his own, he didn't need one, anyway). But because Moree was so agitated, and Moree was the dominant dog, Moree's agitation passed to Smokey, and he ended up not doing well with the Gentle Leader, either.
After Moree passed, we got Junebug as a puppy, and Smokey became the dominant dog, his calmness about situations often would calm Junebug down.
|
|
andi9899
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 6, 2011 10:22:29 GMT -5
Posts: 30,428
|
Post by andi9899 on May 29, 2019 12:20:20 GMT -5
Thing 2 came over with her dog, Astro last night. He's 8 months old and a vall of energy. He also leads with his teeth. Bear was not having any of it and growlsed and nipped at him. In his defense, Astro was all over the place. But I've never seen that from him before. Macy, yes. Not Bear. Don't get me wrong, Macy snatched him up at one point. He'll learn. He's just got so much puppy left in there.
|
|
shanendoah
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 19:44:48 GMT -5
Posts: 10,096
Mini-Profile Name Color: 0c3563
|
Post by shanendoah on May 29, 2019 15:27:18 GMT -5
andi9899 - even patient/gentle dogs can reach their limit with puppies. Junebug actually destroyed one of Smokey's collars, because he was her favorite chew toy. She even liked to try and drag him around by the collar. (Her - 30lb Beagle puppy. Him - 65lb Lab/Pit mix.) Finally, one morning, he reached his limit. One paw and she was down. He put his mouth completely over her head. And then he looked at us like - Do you think this will make her stop?
|
|