Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 29, 2016 9:01:40 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons.
Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end?
And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 29, 2016 9:05:00 GMT -5
I don't give money to stupid stuff.
I dont' understand how giving money to this will fix anything for race relations. I do think white privilege exists, but I don't feel guilty about it. I address it by recognizing my own biases, working on them, and talking about it in a manner that I hope makes people think about the issue.
For example, think about the FB meme going around about Trump being introduced by his 5 children by 3 different women. He's seen as a powerful businessman who is desirable to women. If Obama did that, he's just one of those useless sperm donors.
Also, I see a lot of people post pictures of themselves on FB with their guns. They are hunters and rabid supporters of the 2nd amendment. They are all white. If a black guy posts a picture of himself with his gun, he's a thug.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:09:22 GMT -5
Lizard Queen pretty much nailed it. My problem isn't that I want reparations. In fact, I made it clear in my post that I didn't. What w e NEED is to acknowledge that we still have work to do regarding racial disparity and to put an honest effort toward doing away with it. All of us. This isn't a "black folks" problem - it is EVERYONE'S problem. THAT was my point. I agree. But your first post didn't get that point across, at least to me. It sounded like you think that people ignore it bc it doesn't effect them. I disagree. I think many people take it very seriously even if it doesn't directly effect them. And may be you personally don't want reparations, but evidently there are plenty of people who do. I feel that a lot of people do ignore it because it doesn't affect them. I guess you're not one of them. I apologize if sounded like I said all the people here didn't care. But it's obvious that some here do fall into that category of "it doesn't affect me directly so I don't care" or "I've never seen any racist stuff happen so it is not really that big of an issue". I do take issue with that. But I guess I am biased. The people seeking reparations are looking for physical gratification for an emotional loss... Something tangible to fill a void that stuff can never fill. A lot of them are probably fine and are trying to get free stuff through white guilt. Stuff won't help. Being able to get stopped for a routine traffic violation and not fearing for your life might help though.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 29, 2016 9:09:40 GMT -5
I think this is a common misconception about the definition of white privilege.
It doesn't mean you are "privileged" or that you don't have to work for what you have. It only means that if you had been born into the exact same circumstances but your skin was black, you likely would have dealt with very different treatment throughout your life.
ETA:
I wouldn't call taking issue with that "bias." When you relate your own experiences and are basically told they're invalid because someone of a different race or gender or set of circumstances hasn't noticed or experienced the same things (or hasn't personally oppressed anyone), it is incredibly frustrating.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 29, 2016 9:09:53 GMT -5
I believe in reparations. I think that people of color in this country have a much tougher road, and a lot of that is a result of this country's history of oppressing an entire group of people.
However, I wouldn't give to a website where I'm giving massages and gift certificates to an individual. To me reparations means investing heavily in inner city public schools, it means affirmative action, providing free childcare, etc. It also means really acknowledging and trying to address that there is still racial inequality.
The black lives matter movement didn't make sense to me at first. I thought that it was silly to place one set of lives as being more important than another. And then it dawned on me, when you have spent decades and centuries being treated as if you life was less than a white person's that you needed to articulate that your life matters as well. It's just as important. I do think that we need to address that more fully. Addressing social, economic, and racial injustice is critical IMO.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:19:56 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. You're right. America has never apologized or paid any restitution for the atrocities that they have committed against anyone, why should they start now? Well for one thing, slavery was a huge boon to the American economy. Free unrestricted labor allowed plantations to produce a bounty of crops. All they had to provide was basic food and shelter. It could be argued that we wouldn't be where we are now had it not happened - for better or worse. So as thanks for all those years of free labor, after they were emancipated black people had to fight to vote, own property, use the same schools and restrooms as whites, etc. Is a museum or memorial to recognize the people who - against their will - built this country up really so much to ask?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 29, 2016 9:20:23 GMT -5
Virgil you knew what the answer was before you even posted this ridiculousness. Of course everyone would say no. It fits nicely with the "if it doesn't directly affect ME, so I don't care" mentality that is prevalent these days. Oh what? More violent crimes are done by blacks? Well "those people" better get themselves in line then, you know, even though everyone is affected by that. No one wants to be part of the village. We are outraged by atrocities and discrimination (or vehemently deny their existence), yet sit comfortably behind our keyboards knowing that it's not going to happen to us so we're safe. I'm sorry, I guess I'm not really safe from it. But that's MY problem to deal with apparently. The system is fine, so I must be doing something wrong if I face problems. As a black woman, I don't want reparations because that would just create more white anger...and it's pointless. What I do want is: 1) for black peoole to be on equal footing with white people without having to go way above and beyond to prove themselves. 2) some type of slavey museum for ALL slaves in America. We need one repository of all this knowledge. Would also be nice to have all the records there so maybe people can find some very distant relatives and what boat they came on. Or when their famiky bought their first slave. I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix, oped, Opti, and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 29, 2016 9:22:36 GMT -5
Virgil you knew what the answer was before you even posted this ridiculousness. Of course everyone would say no. It fits nicely with the "if it doesn't directly affect ME, so I don't care" mentality that is prevalent these days. Oh what? More violent crimes are done by blacks? Well "those people" better get themselves in line then, you know, even though everyone is affected by that. No one wants to be part of the village. We are outraged by atrocities and discrimination (or vehemently deny their existence), yet sit comfortably behind our keyboards knowing that it's not going to happen to us so we're safe. I'm sorry, I guess I'm not really safe from it. But that's MY problem to deal with apparently. The system is fine, so I must be doing something wrong if I face problems. As a black woman, I don't want reparations because that would just create more white anger...and it's pointless. What I do want is: 1) for black peoole to be on equal footing with white people without having to go way above and beyond to prove themselves. 2) some type of slavey museum for ALL slaves in America. We need one repository of all this knowledge. Would also be nice to have all the records there so maybe people can find some very distant relatives and what boat they came on. Or when their famiky bought their first slave. I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix , oped , Opti , and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful. I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:29:58 GMT -5
I think this is a common misconception about the definition of white privilege. It doesn't mean you are "privileged" or that you don't have to work for what you have. It only means that if you had been born into the exact same circumstances but your skin was black, you likely would have dealt with very different treatment throughout your life.ETA: I wouldn't call taking issue with that "bias." When you relate your own experiences and are basically told they're invalid because someone of a different race or gender or set of circumstances hasn't noticed or experienced the same things (or hasn't personally oppressed anyone), it is incredibly frustrating. You have no idea what I would have went through if I had been born black. I do think there is a difference if you are born black in my area versus being born black in an inner-city. I went to school with two black kids they were poor like me and they are all successful now. But they weren't raised with the mentality of "woe is me, I can't change my life around". It isn't easy to fight your way out of poverty but it can be done. But that has to come from within. You have to want to get out. And to me, if you feel that you are a victim and everyone is out to hold you down, you have much less of a shot at it then if you have an attitude of "I'm smart, I'm driven and I will succeed". Jen herself has talked about what other black people put her through because she cared about making something of herself. That is not something that me as a white person can change for the black community.
And I'm sure most of you will totally disagree with me on this. I'm used to it on this board
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:29:59 GMT -5
Virgil you knew what the answer was before you even posted this ridiculousness. Of course everyone would say no. It fits nicely with the "if it doesn't directly affect ME, so I don't care" mentality that is prevalent these days. Oh what? More violent crimes are done by blacks? Well "those people" better get themselves in line then, you know, even though everyone is affected by that. No one wants to be part of the village. We are outraged by atrocities and discrimination (or vehemently deny their existence), yet sit comfortably behind our keyboards knowing that it's not going to happen to us so we're safe. I'm sorry, I guess I'm not really safe from it. But that's MY problem to deal with apparently. The system is fine, so I must be doing something wrong if I face problems. As a black woman, I don't want reparations because that would just create more white anger...and it's pointless. What I do want is: 1) for black peoole to be on equal footing with white people without having to go way above and beyond to prove themselves. 2) some type of slavey museum for ALL slaves in America. We need one repository of all this knowledge. Would also be nice to have all the records there so maybe people can find some very distant relatives and what boat they came on. Or when their famiky bought their first slave. I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix, oped, Opti, and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful. Honestly I think it does more harm than good. It's just adding to the stereotype that we want a hand out instead of a hand up. We (black people) need to change the narrative. How we carry ourselves is how the world will see us. On FB I saw a petition to get the World Star website shut down. I'm all for it. If you've never heard of it, it shows SOME news but most of it is videos of fights, half naked women twerking, and other such coonery (i know you'll probably need to edit that word out, but I really don't know how else to describe it). If that's how we present ourselves, we can't wonder why we aren't taken more seriously.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:32:19 GMT -5
I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix , oped , Opti , and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful. I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
I'm Irish, too...I want in on this free massage! And I want more than you get because I also suffered through poverty through no fault of my own!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 29, 2016 9:32:26 GMT -5
I don't think you can possibly do reparations generations removed, when all the wronged and wrong-doers and their children are dead and buried. What you can do, is address the wrongs occurring right now--innocent citizens being gunned down by police who never receive any consequences for their mistakes. Police officers choose their profession with full knowledge and acceptance of the risks involved, while innocent civilians who happen to have darker skin have no choice in the matter. There needs to be a complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing. The founders of this country were apparently very concerned with those in powerful positions misusing and oppressing the less powerful. They made it easier for criminals to get away for the sake of not harming any innocent people. The recent shift has been to the complete opposite side of this divide. We're supposed to just accept some collateral damage for the purpose of law and order. I think the problem here is that people like you and me can't effectively change police conduct. I believe the idea that we can is a myth. We've discussed the subject ad nauseum in P/CE and the general consensus is that there's a "cycle of mistrust" between black Americans especially and the police, and that this cycle can't be broken externally. Hence even if there was a "complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing", it wouldn't do any good. The cycle would still be there in full force. People have to take steps above and beyond simply adjusting their attitude. I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action, but many people here are, and it seems to me that this site is like a voluntary, from-the-heart kind of Affirmative Action. It's a way of acknowledging that a problem exists, and, over and above this, demonstrating a willingness to do something to "balance the scales". In short, I don't see why anybody who supports AA wouldn't support this.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:33:11 GMT -5
I think this is a common misconception about the definition of white privilege. It doesn't mean you are "privileged" or that you don't have to work for what you have. It only means that if you had been born into the exact same circumstances but your skin was black, you likely would have dealt with very different treatment throughout your life.ETA: I wouldn't call taking issue with that "bias." When you relate your own experiences and are basically told they're invalid because someone of a different race or gender or set of circumstances hasn't noticed or experienced the same things (or hasn't personally oppressed anyone), it is incredibly frustrating. You have no idea what I would have went through if I had been born black. I do think there is a difference if you are born black in my area versus being born black in an inner-city. I went to school with two black kids they were poor like me and they are all successful now. But they weren't raised with the mentality of "woe is me, I can't change my life around". It isn't easy to fight your way out of poverty but it can be done. But that has to come from within. You have to want to get out. And to me, if you feel that you are a victim and everyone is out to hold you down, you have much less of a shot at it then if you have an attitude of "I'm smart, I'm driven and I will succeed". Jen herself has talked about what other black people put her through because she cared about making something of herself. That is not something that me as a white person can change for the black community.
And I'm sure most of you will totally disagree with me on this. I'm used to it on this board
Yes I have shared those stories. I'm doing alright but I am destined for better things. And I do believe in working hard to get where you want to be. What I don't like is the assumption (not by you specifically but by others) that I got where I did because of affirmative action or something - not because I worked hard.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:34:45 GMT -5
I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix , oped , Opti , and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful. Honestly I think it does more harm than good. It's just adding to the stereotype that we want a hand out instead of a hand up. We (black people) need to change the narrative. How we carry ourselves is how the world will see us. On FB I saw a petition to get the World Star website shut down. I'm all for it. If you've never heard of it, it shows SOME news but most of it is videos of fights, half naked women twerking, and other such coonery (i know you'll probably need to edit that word out, but I really don't know how else to describe it). If that's how we present ourselves, we can't wonder why we aren't taken more seriously. I can totally understand what you are saying. But I also don't think that the Honey Boo Boos of the world show the world what white people are all about. I look at Carl, you and the few black people I know in real life (well, I know you in real life but you know what I mean!) and you are nothing like the people on those videos. Much like I'm not like the Honey Boo Boos
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:34:57 GMT -5
I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
I'm Irish, too...I want in on this free massage! And I want more than you get because I also suffered through poverty through no fault of my own! I'm sure I have some kind of Irish in me, so I want 2 massages.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jul 29, 2016 9:36:07 GMT -5
I knew there was going to be skepticism of the idea, but I figured most of it would come from conservatives. My expectation is that posters who've been outspoken about systemic racism and white privilege, such as happyhoix , oped , Opti , and several more besides will countenance the idea. The site isn't forcing anybody to donate. It's trying to get people who need help together with people who want to "do something" about white privilege and systemic racism. Over and over again I've asked people in P/CE what BLM hopes to accomplish and what white people can do to heal the rift between the races in America. Nobody has ever come up with anything actionable. This site and others like it are the first example I've seen of something actionable. For those who don't believe in the concept, I'm equally interested in whether they think the idea is silly or if they think it goes beyond this to being harmful. I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
The difference would be that the Irish aren't getting the sharp end of a biased system up to and including today. Plus you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody who'll claim persecution of the Irish was in any wise comparable to persecution of blacks (non-whites, more generally).
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:40:26 GMT -5
I'm Irish, too...I want in on this free massage! And I want more than you get because I also suffered through poverty through no fault of my own! I'm sure I have some kind of Irish in me, so I want 2 massages. Sounds like we need to get a girls trip scheduled before the free massages are booked!lol
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:42:49 GMT -5
I don't think you can possibly do reparations generations removed, when all the wronged and wrong-doers and their children are dead and buried. What you can do, is address the wrongs occurring right now--innocent citizens being gunned down by police who never receive any consequences for their mistakes. Police officers choose their profession with full knowledge and acceptance of the risks involved, while innocent civilians who happen to have darker skin have no choice in the matter. There needs to be a complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing. The founders of this country were apparently very concerned with those in powerful positions misusing and oppressing the less powerful. They made it easier for criminals to get away for the sake of not harming any innocent people. The recent shift has been to the complete opposite side of this divide. We're supposed to just accept some collateral damage for the purpose of law and order. I think the problem here is that people like you and me can't effectively change police conduct. I believe the idea that we can is a myth. We've discussed the subject ad nauseum in P/CE and the general consensus is that there's a "cycle of mistrust" between black Americans especially and the police, and that this cycle can't be broken externally. Hence even if there was a "complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing", it wouldn't do any good. The cycle would still be there in full force. People have to take steps above and beyond simply adjusting their attitude. I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action, but many people here are, and it seems to me that this site is like a voluntary, from-the-heart kind of Affirmative Action. It's a way of acknowledging that a problem exists, and, over and above this, demonstrating a willingness to do something to "balance the scales". In short, I don't see why anybody who supports AA wouldn't support this. All these years I assumed that the story of the government introducing crack into poor black neighborhoods was crazy conspiracy theory, but I may have to actually do some research.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 29, 2016 9:44:08 GMT -5
I think this is a common misconception about the definition of white privilege. It doesn't mean you are "privileged" or that you don't have to work for what you have. It only means that if you had been born into the exact same circumstances but your skin was black, you likely would have dealt with very different treatment throughout your life.ETA: I wouldn't call taking issue with that "bias." When you relate your own experiences and are basically told they're invalid because someone of a different race or gender or set of circumstances hasn't noticed or experienced the same things (or hasn't personally oppressed anyone), it is incredibly frustrating. You have no idea what I would have went through if I had been born black. I do think there is a difference if you are born black in my area versus being born black in an inner-city. I went to school with two black kids they were poor like me and they are all successful now. But they weren't raised with the mentality of "woe is me, I can't change my life around". It isn't easy to fight your way out of poverty but it can be done. But that has to come from within. You have to want to get out. And to me, if you feel that you are a victim and everyone is out to hold you down, you have much less of a shot at it then if you have an attitude of "I'm smart, I'm driven and I will succeed". Jen herself has talked about what other black people put her through because she cared about making something of herself. That is not something that me as a white person can change for the black community.
And I'm sure most of you will totally disagree with me on this. I'm used to it on this board I agree with this post, I am sure you are surprised! (Although I think for many, just wanting to get out of their situation isn't enough without some outside help, a mentor, etc.) My post was just to clarify that white privilege can exist even if some white people don't feel privileged.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:47:19 GMT -5
I don't think you can possibly do reparations generations removed, when all the wronged and wrong-doers and their children are dead and buried. What you can do, is address the wrongs occurring right now--innocent citizens being gunned down by police who never receive any consequences for their mistakes. Police officers choose their profession with full knowledge and acceptance of the risks involved, while innocent civilians who happen to have darker skin have no choice in the matter. There needs to be a complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing. The founders of this country were apparently very concerned with those in powerful positions misusing and oppressing the less powerful. They made it easier for criminals to get away for the sake of not harming any innocent people. The recent shift has been to the complete opposite side of this divide. We're supposed to just accept some collateral damage for the purpose of law and order. I think the problem here is that people like you and me can't effectively change police conduct. I believe the idea that we can is a myth. We've discussed the subject ad nauseum in P/CE and the general consensus is that there's a "cycle of mistrust" between black Americans especially and the police, and that this cycle can't be broken externally. Hence even if there was a "complete attitude shift in this country in regards to the purpose of policing", it wouldn't do any good. The cycle would still be there in full force. People have to take steps above and beyond simply adjusting their attitude. I'm not a fan of Affirmative Action, but many people here are, and it seems to me that this site is like a voluntary, from-the-heart kind of Affirmative Action. It's a way of acknowledging that a problem exists, and, over and above this, demonstrating a willingness to do something to "balance the scales". In short, I don't see why anybody who supports AA wouldn't support this. I don't support AA so I guess that explains why I don't support this. I'm a female and females benefit from quotas, too (remember that long battle over the military lessening their qualifications for females??). This is jmho, but to me lessening any requirements to let me or anyone like me into a position, a school or anything else says that I'm not good enough to make it on my own. I find that highly freaking offensive. If there is a GPA needed to get into a school and I don't have it, then I don't belong there. If there are physical standards for military and I dont' meet them, then I don't belong there.
jmho....and I am sure most of you don't agree with me (considering the backlash I got on the military thread, I know most of you dont' agree with me...good thing I know less liberal people in real life or I would get a complex!)
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:48:30 GMT -5
You have no idea what I would have went through if I had been born black. I do think there is a difference if you are born black in my area versus being born black in an inner-city. I went to school with two black kids they were poor like me and they are all successful now. But they weren't raised with the mentality of "woe is me, I can't change my life around". It isn't easy to fight your way out of poverty but it can be done. But that has to come from within. You have to want to get out. And to me, if you feel that you are a victim and everyone is out to hold you down, you have much less of a shot at it then if you have an attitude of "I'm smart, I'm driven and I will succeed". Jen herself has talked about what other black people put her through because she cared about making something of herself. That is not something that me as a white person can change for the black community.
And I'm sure most of you will totally disagree with me on this. I'm used to it on this board I agree with this post, I am sure you are surprised! (Although I think for many, just wanting to get out of their situation isn't enough without some outside help, a mentor, etc.) My post was just to clarify that white privilege can exist even if some white people don't feel privileged. I do believe that hell just froze over
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jul 29, 2016 9:49:52 GMT -5
Hey now, I think we have agreed at least twice before over the past, oh, seven years...
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 29, 2016 9:49:53 GMT -5
I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
I'm Irish, too...I want in on this free massage! And I want more than you get because I also suffered through poverty through no fault of my own! I'm also part native American. I deserve it more because my ancestor's land was taken away, and some white guy probably raped the native woman who have birth to my ancestor.
So there.
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Miss Tequila
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Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:51:01 GMT -5
I'm Irish, too...I want in on this free massage! And I want more than you get because I also suffered through poverty through no fault of my own! I'm also part native American. I deserve it more because my ancestor's land was taken away, and some white guy probably raped the native woman who have birth to my ancestor.
So there.
Damn you with your one-upping!
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Miss Tequila
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Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:51:25 GMT -5
Hey now, I think we have agreed at least twice before over the past, oh, seven years... lol!
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 29, 2016 9:51:27 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. You are thinking "locally".. If we expect restitution from Japan for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march then we should expect the Japanese to need restitution for bombings and deaths of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Japan's gonna have a tough time with China. And then there's Vietnam....
And on a different level (eugenics/religious) what about the reparations the UK will need to be making? Or the white folks in Australia (They had quite the eugenics program going to help solve the problem with the Aboriginal population).
And just to muddy the subject of slavery it isn't really done with. Well, the form it use to take before the late 1800's that we traditionally think of. Today women, children, and men are still held in slavery. It's just not an institution condoned by the local governing authorities (well, depends on what country you are in) but it's there.
The thing is... restitution/reparations don't always equal justice. And I think what is needed is justice - and we need to figure out what form it should take. I think recognizing that white privilege exists (it might be economic privilege or some other adjective) and then working on some way to make things fair and just.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 29, 2016 9:53:06 GMT -5
I'm Irish. We were treated like crap by the English. Buy me a massage to make me feel better.
Sounds stupid? Yes, because it is.
The difference would be that the Irish aren't getting the sharp end of a biased system up to and including today. Plus you'd be hard-pressed to find anybody who'll claim persecution of the Irish was in any wise comparable to persecution of blacks (non-whites, more generally). Oh I dunno, the starvation of millions of Irish during the potato famine while Great Britain was exporting food to other countries was pretty shitty.
And we are only about 70 years removed from the "No Irish need apply" signs.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 29, 2016 9:53:46 GMT -5
Honestly I think it does more harm than good. It's just adding to the stereotype that we want a hand out instead of a hand up. We (black people) need to change the narrative. How we carry ourselves is how the world will see us. On FB I saw a petition to get the World Star website shut down. I'm all for it. If you've never heard of it, it shows SOME news but most of it is videos of fights, half naked women twerking, and other such coonery (i know you'll probably need to edit that word out, but I really don't know how else to describe it). If that's how we present ourselves, we can't wonder why we aren't taken more seriously. I can totally understand what you are saying. But I also don't think that the Honey Boo Boos of the world show the world what white people are all about. I look at Carl, you and the few black people I know in real life (well, I know you in real life but you know what I mean!) and you are nothing like the people on those videos. Much like I'm not like the Honey Boo Boos come on, we've seen your FB page!!!
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Miss Tequila
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Joined: Dec 19, 2010 10:13:45 GMT -5
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jul 29, 2016 9:53:48 GMT -5
I never understood this idea of generational/racial/ethnic guilt. I think most people agree that the sins of the pathetic don't pass to his sons. Furthermore, if we acknowledge slavery, why don't we expect Japaneese people to pay us restitution for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march? Or Muslims to payouts for 9/11? Where does it end? And slavery is done with, and it's never coming back. There's no one in America alive today that's even seen a slave. It was awful and horrible and I'm glad it's gone. You are thinking "locally".. If we expect restitution from Japan for Pearl Harbor or the Bataan death march then we should expect the Japanese to need restitution for bombings and deaths of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
And just to cloud the subject slavery isn't done with. Well, the kind we traditionally think of...women, children, and men are held in slavery today. It's just not an institution condoned by the local governing authorities but it's there.
The thing is... restitution/reparations isn't always justice. For some things justice needs to be something else. That may be what the issue is. Justice is required - it probably isn't in the form of dollars.
This is the part I find ludicrous. The slaves and the slave owners are long dead. That would be like me going after the great-great grandson of the man who murdered my great-great-grandfather. Makes no sense
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 29, 2016 9:54:31 GMT -5
Honestly I think it does more harm than good. It's just adding to the stereotype that we want a hand out instead of a hand up. We (black people) need to change the narrative. How we carry ourselves is how the world will see us. On FB I saw a petition to get the World Star website shut down. I'm all for it. If you've never heard of it, it shows SOME news but most of it is videos of fights, half naked women twerking, and other such coonery (i know you'll probably need to edit that word out, but I really don't know how else to describe it). If that's how we present ourselves, we can't wonder why we aren't taken more seriously. I can totally understand what you are saying. But I also don't think that the Honey Boo Boos of the world show the world what white people are all about. I look at Carl, you and the few black people I know in real life (well, I know you in real life but you know what I mean!) and you are nothing like the people on those videos. Much like I'm not like the Honey Boo Boos Yeah, but there seem to be more focus on black people in the media making a fool of themselves than the rest of us being normal or good. Sounds like we need to bring back Tosh.0.
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