Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 13:34:14 GMT -5
And while I agree she probably stayed married to him in part to stay in politics, that is her right and perogitive. We still live in a world where women are judged more harshly if they are divorced than men are. And so far, I don't think we've had a President who has been divorced, so not surprising she might make that choice.
Ronald Reagan was the first divorced President. Betty Ford was the first divorced First Lady.
Useless trivia for the day...
OK, thanks to those who found those examples. I still understand why she chose to be married if President was one of her goals.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 13:42:02 GMT -5
Slap in the face? I guess BEING a serial adulterer is much better that sticking with one. Trump was a serial philanderer who fathered children out of wedlock while married to somebody else. I'm sorry, I didn't talk about Donald Trump because the thread is about the first woman President. I don't think Donald Trump will be our first woman president. Although it is technically possible, I'm going to just go out on a limb and disregard that theory and stick to the original topic . I'm not comparing Hillary to him because the thread is not about him...I'm comparing Hillary to the millions of women out there who don't stay with an adulterer because it will lead to a powerful position for them in the future, but have achieved success based on their own merits and talents. I know many women who are far more successful than Hillary Clinton because that's who they are...not because they stayed in a marriage to do it. I'm married to one. I'm probably biased a little bit on that example, but I know she wouldn't hang around if I did half the shit he pulled. Let me do a test...I'll go tell her "hey I've been fucking the intern at work...but I'm going to be President someday" and see how well that goes over . Like I said I'm biased on that one. I've worked for women before that are for more ethically "sound" than Hillary. And this isn't about political parties either, because I'm guessing some would lean either way politically. They were confident successful women. They didn't need to marry or stay married to a serial adulterer in order be successful. I think Hillary has no integrity. Zero. If she switched parties today and became the most conservative woman on the planet and moved in next door, I would not invite her over to dinner, because she is not the kind of person my family chooses to socialize with. If I wouldn't have dinner with her then I don't care if she's a woman or a freakin' martian, I'm not going to vote for her. If you want to vote for her because she's a woman, I can understand that. Like I said, if I was black I would have voted for Obama, and I could care less what people think of that decision. If I was a woman, I wouldn't vote for Hillary...she is an example of everything that competent, successful women who have integrity do NOT stand for. Pretty strong views. I don't know the inside of their marriage but it is not only women who stay with cheating spouses. I don't agree with it, but I don't see it as an integrity issue as you do, because I see it as a choice.
Its kind of ironic to read this as let's face it, Melania married a serial adulterer. Do you think her jewelry line or even her modeling would have gone quite as well without her marrying him?
I think Hillary has integrity, its just not your brand. She's a pragmatist who's been beaten up her entire life starting before her own Dad told her that her college must be easy because she got As. Standing for healthcare for all is something women with integrity don't want? Less dependence on foreign oil? Renewable energy?
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 27, 2016 13:43:43 GMT -5
Ronald Reagan was the first divorced President. Betty Ford was the first divorced First Lady.
Useless trivia for the day...
OK, thanks to those who found those examples. I still understand why she chose to be married if President was one of her goals. I agree. Too many people sit in judgment of her marriage. Her willingness to stay in that relationship has no bearing on her ability to serve as president. No-one really knows what goes on in anyone else's marriage.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 27, 2016 13:48:00 GMT -5
Slap in the face? I guess BEING a serial adulterer is much better that sticking with one. Trump was a serial philanderer who fathered children out of wedlock while married to somebody else. I'm sorry, I didn't talk about Donald Trump because the thread is about the first woman President. I don't think Donald Trump will be our first woman president. Although it is technically possible, I'm going to just go out on a limb and disregard that theory and stick to the original topic . I'm not comparing Hillary to him because the thread is not about him...I'm comparing Hillary to the millions of women out there who don't stay with an adulterer because it will lead to a powerful position for them in the future, but have achieved success based on their own merits and talents. I know many women who are far more successful than Hillary Clinton because that's who they are...not because they stayed in a marriage to do it. I'm married to one. I'm probably biased a little bit on that example, but I know she wouldn't hang around if I did half the shit he pulled. Let me do a test...I'll go tell her "hey I've been fucking the intern at work...but I'm going to be President someday" and see how well that goes over . Like I said I'm biased on that one. I've worked for women before that are for more ethically "sound" than Hillary. And this isn't about political parties either, because I'm guessing some would lean either way politically. They were confident successful women. They didn't need to marry or stay married to a serial adulterer in order be successful. I think Hillary has no integrity. Zero. If she switched parties today and became the most conservative woman on the planet and moved in next door, I would not invite her over to dinner, because she is not the kind of person my family chooses to socialize with. If I wouldn't have dinner with her then I don't care if she's a woman or a freakin' martian, I'm not going to vote for her. If you want to vote for her because she's a woman, I can understand that. Like I said, if I was black I would have voted for Obama, and I could care less what people think of that decision. If I was a woman, I wouldn't vote for Hillary...she is an example of everything that competent, successful women who have integrity do NOT stand for. Eh, politicians have done a lot worse than stay with a cheater in order to be successful. I guess I am not comparing her to other women but rather other politicians. Isn't that what we should do? If we want to not base things on gender then shouldn't we be comparing politicians rather than just female to female? If Hillary has no integrity for staying with a cheater then do the politician's that cheat also have no integrity? Personally, I thought she was stupid to stay with the man but I don't feel like a politician's personal life has anything to do with their ability to run the country (this goes for both parties). Some of our greatest presidents have been cheaters but we want to be upset with Hillary and say she has no integrity because she stayed with a cheater? It just doesn't make logical sense to me. In my mind, that is holding her to a different standard.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 13:48:19 GMT -5
Even funnier to think that it would be morally preferably to vote FOR a serial adulterer than one who chooses to stay married to one.
Yep, let's keep electing men who cheat cuz apparently that's OK cuz they are men. But oh hell no, that a woman stays with a cheater, suddenly her whole integrity is at stake!
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jul 27, 2016 13:48:37 GMT -5
That is absolutely her right and perogitive to stay married to him in order to stay (or be) in politics. I don't agree that she is a person women should be looking up to if they are looking for a role model. There are a lot better role models out there and you don't have to go far very to find one. If I've had relatives/bosses/peers/friends who are good female role models than I'm sure you have also. I am a woman. I like and respect Hillary Clinton. I hope she becomes the next President of the United States.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 13:51:52 GMT -5
OK, thanks to those who found those examples. I still understand why she chose to be married if President was one of her goals. I agree. Too many people sit in judgment of her marriage. Her willingness to stay in that relationship has no bearing on her ability to serve as president. No-one really knows what goes on in anyone else's marriage. The stupid thing is, if she had divorced him people would be judging her too. You can't win.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 13:56:59 GMT -5
She is part of the family that got there though. Your assertion she married into a powerful family is utterly incorrect. She stood by him to get the governorship way back when and changed her image so he could be re-elected even though at one time he made about $34K as governor and she brought in $200K as a lawyer. You are naïve if you think she hasn't assisted him to the Presidency.
And while I agree she probably stayed married to him in part to stay in politics, that is her right and perogitive. We still live in a world where women are judged more harshly if they are divorced than men are. And so far, I don't think we've had a President who has been divorced, so not surprising she might make that choice.
Dude...she married the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. She is still married to a former PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. No, he was not the POTUS when they got married...that is correct. You are naïve if you think she would be in the news today if she married Bubba who plucked chickens at the Tyson chicken factory in Arkansas. That is absolutely her right and perogitive to stay married to him in order to stay (or be) in politics. I don't agree that she is a person women should be looking up to if they are looking for a role model. There are a lot better role models out there and you don't have to go far very to find one. If I've had relatives/bosses/peers/friends who are good female role models than I'm sure you have also. I have no idea about the world judging divorced women more harshly than men. It seems like there should be an equal number of divorced women as divorced men in the world...and if there is an equal number of women as men in the world...the math doesn't add up to me. Maybe I'm missing something very important, I don't know. I don't judge divorced women more harshly than men, and can't recall any instance of that happening though, so maybe that's your own feelings but not society. As far as not having a President who is divorced, well that kind of goes back to my original point. I would have a lot more respect for her as the first woman president if she gained it because she was divorced and her merit/talent got her there, than because of her name and political connections. There are plenty of women out there who are leaders in their scientific research, career field, communities, etc and also have integrity, honesty, ethics. Dude? You look at my avatar and call me Dude?
Duh, she was married to the President of the United States when he was elected. So effing what? Why in the heck do we need her to be a role model? She's being elected President not the head of Role Models R Us.
She is gaining it on her own merit. It may not be the way you approve of, but she earned it from her years at the WH as FLOTUS working on Healthcare reform. It took until Obama that something came of it, but she started the groundwork. Why you think she doesn't have connections of her own is really sad and frankly a bit patronizing.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 27, 2016 14:03:02 GMT -5
I'm actually more offended that Ratchets thinks that she's gotten as far as she has just because her husband did so well. did you miss the accomplishments she had before she moved to Arkansas?
wow, dude. not cool. given some posts of yours in the past, not really surprising, though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2016 14:07:38 GMT -5
Dude...she married the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. She is still married to a former PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. No, he was not the POTUS when they got married...that is correct. You are naïve if you think she would be in the news today if she married Bubba who plucked chickens at the Tyson chicken factory in Arkansas. There was an SNL skit about that once. Bill and Hillary pulled into a gas station or something and Hillary saw her old redneck high school boyfriend who was pumping gas. After they left, Bill said, "Boy, I'll bet you're glad you didn't marry him. Where would you be today if you had?". Hillary replied "In the White House".
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 27, 2016 14:19:30 GMT -5
Pretty strong views. I don't know the inside of their marriage but it is not only women who stay with cheating spouses. I don't agree with it, but I don't see it as an integrity issue as you do, because I see it as a choice.
Its kind of ironic to read this as let's face it, Melania married a serial adulterer. Do you think her jewelry line or even her modeling would have gone quite as well without her marrying him?
I think Hillary has integrity, its just not your brand. She's a pragmatist who's been beaten up her entire life starting before her own Dad told her that her college must be easy because she got As. Standing for healthcare for all is something women with integrity don't want? Less dependence on foreign oil? Renewable energy?
That is strong views. I think being POTUS is very important...it's more about leadership and integrity than positions IMO. You are a leader...a leader of a country. There just isn't anything good I can't think of to say about her - professionally or personally. She's avoided jail for shit that would get you or I locked up forever...so she's "crafty" I guess. I dunno if that's a complement but that's the best I can do. I dunno about Melania being a serial adulterer, but she isn't running for POTUS so the thread is not about her. If I knew more about her I might have the same (low) opinion of her that I do of Hillary, if that's any consolation. I don't think voting for Hillary because Melania is also unethical is a good argument though.
I disagree on the integrity part. Hillary has absolutely no integrity. None. She's been beaten up her entire life?? Are you serious?? I know of a lot of women...and men, who did not get such a privileged upbringing. In fact, every person I know. There is not one person in my circle of friends/family/neighbors/acquiantences/peers/etc who were born with as many advantages as she had. That's ok, that doesn't make her a bad person, not by any means. But to say she's been beaten up her entire life, is like a way way stretch of the imagination. This whole "victim" line of debate doesn't work on me...I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's just not a good tactic if you want to debate me, because I'm not going to get all mushy and defensive. "Standing" for healthcare, less dependence on foreign oil, and renewable energy are policies...that's a different matter from integrity and being a role model, being the first woman to run for president. Our discussion has been about being the first woman to run for president, and how we disagree about that being a good thing...I think the policy part of the discussion should probably be more suited to the politics forum. I'll be more than happy to debate that too though (on that forum)...I'm not a big fan of her policies either, especially towards to our rights/freedoms. why are you comparing the character of a candidate to the character of a candidate's spouse?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 27, 2016 14:19:54 GMT -5
? Where did that come from??
TRUMP is the serial adulterer.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 27, 2016 14:23:40 GMT -5
What advantages? Her father owned a small shmata business and her mother was a homemaker. Not exactly "silver spoon" territory.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 14:24:21 GMT -5
Here's the problem, you and many others think being the first female President means that woman needs to be some sort of saint or at least way better than the other person running, just to be elected. Which is blatant sexism. Its saying simply because she is a woman, somehow she has to be held to standards that Trump does not have to meet.
Now its cute, not really, that you want to ignore Donald J. Trump is a proven serial adulterer. A man who has broken his word and has many lawsuits as a result. Yet, because he is a man, he doesn't need to be a role model in your opinion because he's a guy. We can simply elect or vote for him as President based on whether we want him to do the job. Do you not see the extra shit you want to pile on Hillary or whomever the first Madam President is, simply because they ended being born female? Isn't that terribly shitty?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jul 27, 2016 14:31:07 GMT -5
I agree. Too many people sit in judgment of her marriage. Her willingness to stay in that relationship has no bearing on her ability to serve as president. No-one really knows what goes on in anyone else's marriage. The stupid thing is, if she had divorced him people would be judging her too. You She can't win. Fixed. I can't understand why this has anything to do with her nomination --- none of her marital relationship has anything to do with her ability to lead.
The least that can be said in this case is that she does not quit if times get hard, unlike some bad comb-over guy who dumps wives and businesses (bankruptcy anyone) whenever it suits him.
I'm with Her
ETA: she did not marry a president of the US she married someone who had teaching job at University of Arkansas Law School. He did become the POTUS later on but given how few of them there have been that was by no means a given.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 14:31:32 GMT -5
For Ratchets and others who may know little of Hillary's background.
www.usnews.com/news/articles/2007/01/30/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-hillary-Clinton
When she was 12 years old, she wrote to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, asking how she could become an astronaut. She received a reply saying that NASA didn't accept women in the astronaut program. Her mother comforted her by saying that her eyesight was much too bad anyway.
While at Wellesley College in Massachusetts, she became head of the local chapter of the Young Republicans. While there she slowly turned leftward in her politics, campaigning for Eugene McCarthy for president, organizing the school's first teach-ins on the Vietnam War. She wrote her senior thesis on poverty and community development. She graduated in 1969 with a degree in political science.
All accomplished before she ever met Bill BTW.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 27, 2016 14:36:14 GMT -5
You don't know a single person whose father owned a small business and who had a Stay At Home Mother? Did you grow up in a trailer park?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 14:38:53 GMT -5
why are you comparing the character of a candidate to the character of a candidate's spouse? That was exactly my point!! We are moving too fast for you. Every one else seemed to understand I was comparing Hillary(candidate) to Donald(candidate) except you.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 27, 2016 14:39:48 GMT -5
why are you comparing the character of a candidate to the character of a candidate's spouse? That was exactly my point!! what was your point? nobody ever mentioned Melania until you did.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Jul 27, 2016 14:42:06 GMT -5
Are we seriously going to talk about Hillary being born with advantages considering who her opponent is
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 14:46:26 GMT -5
Perhaps I found the problem?
I wrote-
Which was to point out the possible advantages Trump's wife got. I was also calling out Donald for his serial adultery, Ratchets may have read too fast and thought it was Melania?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 14:48:57 GMT -5
Are we seriously going to talk about Hillary being born with advantages considering who her opponent is Hey, apparently in Ratchet world a woman has to be saddled with as many disadvantages as possible simply to be worthy of running for the Presidency.
Anyone hear the 1950s or 1960s calling?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 27, 2016 14:59:32 GMT -5
Ratchets, could you please list the "advantages" Hillary was born with?
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jul 27, 2016 15:00:56 GMT -5
Eh, politicians have done a lot worse than stay with a cheater in order to be successful. I guess I am not comparing her to other women but rather other politicians. Isn't that what we should do? If we want to not base things on gender then shouldn't we be comparing politicians rather than just female to female? If Hillary has no integrity for staying with a cheater then do the politician's that cheat also have no integrity? Personally, I thought she was stupid to stay with the man but I don't feel like a politician's personal life has anything to do with their ability to run the country (this goes for both parties). Some of our greatest presidents have been cheaters but we want to be upset with Hillary and say she has no integrity because she stayed with a cheater? It just doesn't make logical sense to me. In my mind, that is holding her to a different standard. I agree that politicians have done a lot worse than stay with a cheater...but when you add up all the other nefarious shit she has done I'd say she ranks right up there with the worst of them. This thread didn't originally start as comparing her with other politicians, it started as her being (possibly...probably?) the first female POTUS. I don't consider her "not being as bad as other politicians" to really be a good argument in support of her. (I'm paraphrasing the argument obviously) I agree that she was stupid to stay with him, but I think that's her choice on a personal level. I do think a politician's personal life has to do with their ability to run the country though, it actually matters more to me than what their position is on a certain topic - to some degree at least. I'm not saying I would vote for somebody with impeccable ethics but is on the other side of every debate, so let's not get crazy with that LoL. I do believe that your personal ethics/morals are a big part of leadership though. I also agree that some of our greatest presidents have been cheaters (and probably tons of other things too)...that probably depends on what you would consider "great." A lot of people think of FDR as a "great" President but I don't for the fact that the government usurped a lot of power during his reign. I think he also had a mistress (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong). This is all totally my opinion though and not what the history books say...that's a great thing about our forum is being able to disagree with the "status quo." But also, he isn't the first woman running for president, and if the thread was about him I would go into more detail. I personally don't have a double standard on the issue, I'm talking about Hillary because the thread is about her. I think there is a lot more there than just that one topic too...that puts her in a negative light. Like I said, the best thing I can say about her is "she's savvy enough to not be in jail when you or I would." That's not exactly a great endorsement though LoL! What other "nefarious shit" has she done? Because all I see is that she done what most politicians have done, but she gets hammered for it, while many of them get a free pass (e.g., the email stuff isn't anything that Colin Powell didn't do while he was secretary of state).
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 15:01:34 GMT -5
I don't see her as doing all this nefarious shit as you put it. Has she done some stupid things? Yes. Saying there was sniper fire and some of the early comments when Bill's indiscretions came to light. But compared to Trump? She's so much better IMO. She actually wants to make lives better instead of take advantage of people for money and power.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 27, 2016 15:02:49 GMT -5
OK, thanks to those who found those examples. I still understand why she chose to be married if President was one of her goals. I agree about the choosing to stay married...that's the main part of my point. Her marriage was to advance her career. I would argue that most politicians period stay married to advance their careers, so I don't see how that matters. People seem to like a leader with "family values" over a singleton.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jul 27, 2016 15:06:30 GMT -5
I am looking forward to having Adam (first man) in the WH to support the POTUS
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 15:07:28 GMT -5
OK, thanks to those who found those examples. I still understand why she chose to be married if President was one of her goals. I agree about the choosing to stay married...that's the main part of my point. Her marriage was to advance her career. Without being in her head knowing her thoughts, you nor I know all the reasons she chose to stay married. We can agree we believe she stayed married in part to advance her career, but that's merely how *we* see it. We don't actually know the truth of it.
I personally think being a woman, she chose to stay for multiple reasons, not just one.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 27, 2016 15:09:49 GMT -5
I've heard that there is frequently an understanding about straying amongst rich and powerful couples--common among couples much, much farther down the food chain than the Clintons.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 27, 2016 15:11:22 GMT -5
Damn. This is probably part of the nefarious collection, and you are unaware that at least two if not more former Secs. of State also used private email servers?
Yes Colin Powell was one of them.
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