GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 9, 2016 10:43:58 GMT -5
And, while I am old school and still don't agree with casual hook ups, and at the risk of being creepy while genuinely not intending to be, I believe that teaching our sons the difference between sex and rape will ultimately only make them better prepared, more thoughtful, sexual partners. Unless you're into the caveman thing.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 10:47:42 GMT -5
I know someone here posted that she had this specific conversation with her son - i.e "do not rape", but I have to wonder - how many people really tell their children that? Not bc they would condone it or think it's not a big deal, but simply bc it is not in the realm of the possibility for them - their child commuting such horrible crime. Who really explicitly tells their children not to murder? Or not to rob a bank? I know I will word this poorly and not get my point across properly, but here goes: This is NOT an excuse or a defense. However, the frontal lobes (decision making and judgement) of male brains do not fully mature until a guy is in his late 20s. I wanted my sons to have a continual loop playing in their heads about what is sex and what is rape, because we can all agree that there are situations that are very clearly one and not the other. But, I also wanted to discuss certain situations where it might not be clear to my sons (given their own lack of worldly experience) that "yes" really means "NO" (alcohol and/or drug use, underage girlfriend, expressed reluctance but not an actual refusal, etc.). There are a lot of nuances in a sexually-charged situation that can easily turn it -- especially between two inexperienced partners -- into rape or something more along the lines of rape than sex. It's sometimes easy as adults to correctly interpret a situation that teenagers don't have the experience and/or the knowledge to do so for themselves (sexually-explicit music videos and movies and relaxed social attitudes do not educate, they mis-educate and titillate). I just wanted to have a broader conversation with my sons than "here's a condom, use it so I don't become a grandmother" because it was the right thing to do for them, and for the women they will meet in their lives. This has made me think back to instances where I had to tell guys several times no and sometimes kick them off me because they weren't listening to me. I don't think they were trying to hurt me, just caught up, focused on their target, whatever and it took a bit for my no to sync in. Which is a huge problem in itself. But, thinking back I wonder if it would have gotten through quicker if instead after the first stop instead of repeating stop I said "don't rape me". I really don't think those guys realized that if they hadn't come back to the present and stopped they would have raped me.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 9, 2016 10:49:17 GMT -5
I know someone here posted that she had this specific conversation with her son - i.e "do not rape", but I have to wonder - how many people really tell their children that? Not bc they would condone it or think it's not a big deal, but simply bc it is not in the realm of the possibility for them - their child commuting such horrible crime. Who really explicitly tells their children not to murder? Or not to rob a bank? I know I will word this poorly and not get my point across properly, but here goes: This is NOT an excuse or a defense. However, the frontal lobes (decision making and judgement) of male brains do not fully mature until a guy is in his late 20s. I wanted my sons to have a continual loop playing in their heads about what is sex and what is rape, because we can all agree that there are situations that are very clearly one and not the other. But, I also wanted to discuss certain situations where it might not be clear to my sons (given their own lack of worldly experience) that "yes" really means "NO" (alcohol and/or drug use, underage girlfriend, expressed reluctance but not an actual refusal, etc.). There are a lot of nuances in a sexually-charged situation that can easily turn it -- especially between two inexperienced partners -- into rape or something more along the lines of rape than sex. It's sometimes easy as adults to correctly interpret a situation that teenagers don't have the experience and/or the knowledge to do so for themselves (sexually-explicit music videos and movies and relaxed social attitudes do not educate, they mis-educate and titillate). I just wanted to have a broader conversation with my sons than "here's a condom, use it so I don't become a grandmother" because it was the right thing to do for them, and for the women they will meet in their lives. I completely get what you are saying. I do the same thing. They are way too young to use the word "rape", but I brainwash them as much as I can about general idea that their body = their right and same goes for everyone else. I am hoping that it gets so ingrained in them that it's never even a question. We shall see.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 9, 2016 10:49:55 GMT -5
I think part of the issue is saying to PREVENT rape. In reality if someone really wants to do us harm then they are going to do us harm no matter how many precautions we take. Putting all these requirements on how a woman conducts herself in public in order to "prevent" rape implies that if you do all these things then nothing bad will happen to you. If it DOES happen you clearly must have violated one of the sacred safety rules. The onus is on the victim to do everything correctly in order to prevent herself from getting harmed. All you can do is minimize risk you cannot eliminate it. I can do my best to try to keep myself safe but I cannot PREVENT it from ever happening. Instead of focusing on everything a woman must do right in order to prevent herself from being raped the conversation should be about overall public safety with the added fact that at the end of the day it can still happen to you. You can do everything "right" and still become a victim. You still teach your kids to be safe but it takes away the impression that if you do get harmed it must be because you didn't follow the rules correctly. Men don't get taught anything about not getting raped as far as I can tell. It's even less reported by men because there are victim blaming stigmas for them too. The big one, which also ties into the issues with rape of women is the continually perpetuated myth that men "always want sex". Well if you always have sex on the brain and will take it any time you can get it .. can a man REALLY be raped? If it's male on male rape there are often whispers about closet homosexuality. He wasn't really raped he just doesn't want to admit that he is gay. Then there is the stereotype of the big strong macho male. He'd NEVER allow someone to attack him. So if you are attacked you either secretly wanted it or are a giant p*ssy. I don't see anyone telling men not to go to a bar alone, don't wear sexy clothes, don't sleep around in case other women (or men) get the wrong impression about you. If these are vital safety tips that can prevent rape as a whole then WHY aren't men being given this advice too? There was only one time when I was in college that a girl took advantage of me. I was passed out drunk and I woke up to her taking care of business. I guess that could technically be called rape because I was not in a position to consent. But men almost always want sex, so it wasn't an issue.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 9, 2016 10:53:15 GMT -5
So you didn't actually read what she wrote then? I did and I disagree. We cant prevent ALL rape but I believe this rape could have been prevented. This is a guy praying on a vulnerable person. How could this rape have been prevented? oooo ooooo oooo I have some answers!!! Maybe if the woman involved had opted to stay home, or maybe leave the party earlier, or maybe if she had hung out with a different group of people (so her over the top drunkenness wouldn't have been a problem) at the party, maybe if she had just passed out at the party, Maybe if she had spent more time talking unintelligible to her boyfriend on the phone, maybe if after she and the guy weren't a part of the party what if she had puked continuously all over herself and him? maybe if she had been less ambulatory (more drunk sooner) the guy wouldn't have gotten her away from the party...
Maybe she avoided a DIFFERENT encounter - maybe some other girl was really drunk and some other guy opted for her (could get her someplace private at the party without leaving) and took advantage of that opportunity...which left our girl to cross paths with the guy who DID take advantage of her.
From the guy's point of view maybe HE could have gotten to the other really drunk girl and gotten her into the back room for a little noogie... and maybe the other frat boy on the prowl wouldn't have cross paths with our girl.
Maybe the guy could have stayed home, left early, had less to drink/had MORE to drink, hung with a different group of people... (leaving the other guy to the other really drunk drunk girl in the back room thus sparing our girl from getting raped).
* sorry for switching back and forth between woman and girl...
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 9, 2016 10:57:57 GMT -5
See when someone says which it hasn't been only the person above saying it "It could be prevented," that IS putting the blame on the victim.
We don't know if she was drugged. We don't know if he kept handing her drinks saying they're more full then they are. We don't know if he pushed her down...there were bruises. We don't know if he'd do it to another girl. He was walking her out, they were walking together before she passed out...I highly doubt he suddenly thought to himself "Oh, she's passed out now i'll have sex with her." I highly believe he was going to try to have "sex" with her rather she was passed out or not.
Men that rape woman generally are ALWAYS going to find a way to rape someone.
Saying it could be prevented is putting the blame on the victim.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 9, 2016 11:05:15 GMT -5
Oh, and for some reason girls are aggressive means it gives the idea that she wants to have sex with him?
No. It doesn't matter if she's been flirting up a storm or not...flirting every day all day long doesn't mean it should warrant sex.
Me and my girlfriend flirt every day and she's pretty "aggressive" in letting me know how much I mean to her and how much she likes me. When she's drunk it's even more so. But do I think her flirting with me means she's ready to hop in the bed with me? Does her loving me mean I think I'm granted permission to sleep with her? No. It doesn't. Even when I'm drunk I don't force myself onto her and it's certainly not because I don't want that it's because I have respect for her, and even drunk I know it's wrong to do.
I've had girls in bars drunk that flirt with me before I had a girlfriend it happened quite often, actually. I was known to go to parties because I had a bit of a "wild streak" but I never forced myself upon a girl. Ever. It never crossed my mind. I've had guy friends that are just as drunk as the enforcer that have stopped guys from trying to force themselves on girls as well before.
It doesn't matter how much she was flirting it should never be an indication "Oh she wants me sexually."
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 9, 2016 11:08:28 GMT -5
additionally, someone who was roofied seems to get blamed for drinking too. Even if they were drinking responsibly.
In order to prevent rape, I need to watch my drink, not drink too much, dress appropriately, travel with a buddy, not walk anywhere at night, not go to parties, not hang out with men. Some of the advice is good non genderspecific advice. Some is horseshit, but that's a lot of restrictions on MY behavior to attempt to control what someone else does.
How about we start reframing the conversation as to what is expected from the people who take advantage of people?
So what is stopping you? Why wasn't there a thread started that said... "What should we tell our boys to get them to stop raping?" They typical conversation starter is " How do we prevent this from happening" well like it or not the actions of the victim is part of that discussion. See how this is different.
So if the victim changed her actions, she wouldn't have been raped - but no one here is engaging in blaming the victim?
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 9, 2016 11:24:40 GMT -5
So if the victim changed her actions, she wouldn't have been raped - but no one here is engaging in blaming the victim?
I'm actually done explaining the same thing. But feel free to look back through any and all of my posts for clarification on what I mean. I see clarification for what you think you mean. But saying that if the victim only behaved differently she would not have been raped IS putting the responsibility on her. Regardless of whether you think it is or want it to be. Those are the words, in black and white. That is why so many people are saying the discussion needs to be reframed. It's because so many people truly believe they are not engaging in victim blaming while the words that come out of their mouth completely contradict them.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jun 9, 2016 11:38:16 GMT -5
Ok, if that's what you think, me explaining it for the umpteenth time is not going to change that. yes, I clearly understand that.
If I said to someone "I'm not blaming you for how your kid turned out, but maybe if you had parented differently, they wouldn't still be living in your basement at the age of 30", I think we can all agree that I am in fact blaming them. It is evident, despite the fact that I helpfully started off with "I'm not blaming you". Saying "I don't blame you" does not alter the meaning of the words that follow.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 12:27:59 GMT -5
Except Im not a moron and I don't think dressing a certain way puts you at risk for rape. Certain behaviors DO make you vulnerable to a rapist. You aren't a stupid person. Do you really think being fall down drunk doesn't put you at higher risk? Knowing all we know about college campuses and rape culture, can you honestly tell me that getting shut faced doesn't make you more vulnerable? It doesn't mean you are to blame...but be honest, does it out a person at more risk? It also puts a person more at risk of having their stuff stolen at the party, of ending up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning, of possible long lasting health issues, of getting into fights that cause physical injury or end with getting arrested, of falling and breaking a bone, of drowning in your own vomit, of getting robbed on your wobble home, of a million different things. The issue is not cautioning your children against the dangers of drinking. The issue is saying that not getting drink prevents rape. Because tying drinking too much to not preventing rape leads to people blaming the victim. I know you don't think that, but you're wrong www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11409210/Drunk-or-flirty-rape-victims-often-to-blame-says-survey.htmlwww.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1251040/Rape-Its-fault-victims-say-50-women.htmlYou didn't answer my question...do you honestly believe if the victim wasn't completely intoxicated that she would have been this vulnerable? Because here is the victims own words:
My boyfriend did not know what happened, but called that day and said, “I was really worried about you last night, you scared me, did you make it home okay?” I was horrified. That’s when I learned I had called him that night in my blackout, left an incomprehensible voicemail, that we had also spoken on the phone, but I was slurring so heavily he was scared for me, that he repeatedly told me to go find my sister.
He admitted to wanting to hook up with someone. I was the wounded antelope of the herd, completely alone and vulnerable, physically unable to fend for myself, and he chose me
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stanford-rape-case-hero-swedish-students-who-stopped-brock-turners-attack-describe-what-they-saw-a7070226.html
Again, he is a rapist. But even her words state that she was alone and vulnerable. THAT's what I'm teaching my daughter. We can't prevent all rapes but we need to do all we can to prevent our own rapes (or murder, or burglary or whatever else). To state that women can't do anything to protect themselves is a bunch of feminist bullshit. No woman deserves to be raped but there are things we can do to lessen the likelihood of getting raped, attacked, murdered, etc.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 12:30:15 GMT -5
I think part of the issue is saying to PREVENT rape. In reality if someone really wants to do us harm then they are going to do us harm no matter how many precautions we take.Putting all these requirements on how a woman conducts herself in public in order to "prevent" rape implies that if you do all these things then nothing bad will happen to you. If it DOES happen you clearly must have violated one of the sacred safety rules. The onus is on the victim to do everything correctly in order to prevent herself from getting harmed. All you can do is minimize risk you cannot eliminate it. I can do my best to try to keep myself safe but I cannot PREVENT it from ever happening. Instead of focusing on everything a woman must do right in order to prevent herself from being raped the conversation should be about overall public safety with the added fact that at the end of the day it can still happen to you. You can do everything "right" and still become a victim. You still teach your kids to be safe but it takes away the impression that if you do get harmed it must be because you didn't follow the rules correctly. Men don't get taught anything about not getting raped as far as I can tell. It's even less reported by men because there are victim blaming stigmas for them too. The big one, which also ties into the issues with rape of women is the continually perpetuated myth that men "always want sex". Well if you always have sex on the brain and will take it any time you can get it .. can a man REALLY be raped? If it's male on male rape there are often whispers about closet homosexuality. He wasn't really raped he just doesn't want to admit that he is gay. Then there is the stereotype of the big strong macho male. He'd NEVER allow someone to attack him. So if you are attacked you either secretly wanted it or are a giant p*ssy. I don't see anyone telling men not to go to a bar alone, don't wear sexy clothes, don't sleep around in case other women (or men) get the wrong impression about you. If these are vital safety tips that can prevent rape as a whole then WHY aren't men being given this advice too? Read the link that I just posted to justme. The own victim said that someone was most likely getting raped that night...and that's probably true. She said she became the victim because she was vulnerable...I'm not sure why you and a few others are having such a hissy fit over saying that we should do everything we can to not put ourselves in a vulnerable position.
As far as men getting raped, I think the % of men getting raped is probably VERY small. It happens but not to the extent that women get raped.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 12:32:21 GMT -5
See when someone says which it hasn't been only the person above saying it "It could be prevented," that IS putting the blame on the victim. We don't know if she was drugged. We don't know if he kept handing her drinks saying they're more full then they are. We don't know if he pushed her down...there were bruises. We don't know if he'd do it to another girl. He was walking her out, they were walking together before she passed out...I highly doubt he suddenly thought to himself "Oh, she's passed out now i'll have sex with her." I highly believe he was going to try to have "sex" with her rather she was passed out or not. Men that rape woman generally are ALWAYS going to find a way to rape someone. Saying it could be prevented is putting the blame on the victim. That is where you and I agree...where we disagree is that I want to teach my daughter to take all of the precautions she can to not be the one that gets raped. Sadly we can't stop rape. But I don't want my daughter to put herself in vulnerable positions where she is seen as weak and vulnerable and easy prey
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 12:35:15 GMT -5
So you didn't actually read what she wrote then? I did and I disagree. We cant prevent ALL rape but I believe this rape could have been prevented. This is a guy praying on a vulnerable person. The funny thing is that I agree with you that this rape could have been prevented. But where we diverge is that you seem to think the person who should have done the preventing is the woman who drank too much. As much of an ass as this kid and his father appear to be, I think there is a chance that the kid wouldn't have committed this rape if we focused more on education and culture change at the high school and college level. Let's focus on that instead. Some things I think might have made a difference in this case: - Direct, repeat education starting in high school regarding consent and discussing the issues surrounding consent and alcohol. - Direct, repeat education starting in college regarding consent and discussing the issues surrounding consent and alcohol. - Campaigns to either change or shut down frat culture. One of the things to examine are the agreements that only allow frats to serve alcohol; by default that makes frats the go-to party place and a really dangerous place for women.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 12:39:37 GMT -5
Ok, if that's what you think, me explaining it for the umpteenth time is not going to change that. I agree. I feel like we are all ...which is a complete waste of my energy
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 13:07:22 GMT -5
Ok, if that's what you think, me explaining it for the umpteenth time is not going to change that. I agree. I feel like we are all ...which is a complete waste of my energy Nope. Just like the rapists, people who blame rape on the women fall into two categories - those who will do it even when they know it's wrong because in their hearts they truly believe they are justified and those who are doing it because they lack some sort of understanding on part of the issue. We can't change those in category #1, but by educating those in category #2, we can make a difference. You fall into category #1 so we're not trying to change you anyway. But the more the message gets out, there will be readers who are in category #2 (or parents who start educating their children on category #2) and things will eventually get better. So it's all good.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 9, 2016 13:07:53 GMT -5
I know I will word this poorly and not get my point across properly, but here goes: This is NOT an excuse or a defense. However, the frontal lobes (decision making and judgement) of male brains do not fully mature until a guy is in his late 20s. Getting off subject a little, but I have heard this many times before, yet at the same time we (as a society) condone this: www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/opinions/holloway-charging-juveniles-as-adults/
I can't reconcile this at all, but maybe someone will be able to explain this to me?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 13:08:35 GMT -5
The funny thing is that I agree with you that this rape could have been prevented. But where we diverge is that you seem to think the person who should have done the preventing is the woman who drank too much. As much of an ass as this kid and his father appear to be, I think there is a chance that the kid wouldn't have committed this rape if we focused more on education and culture change at the high school and college level. Let's focus on that instead. Some things I think might have made a difference in this case: - Direct, repeat education starting in high school regarding consent and discussing the issues surrounding consent and alcohol. - Direct, repeat education starting in college regarding consent and discussing the issues surrounding consent and alcohol. - Campaigns to either change or shut down frat culture. One of the things to examine are the agreements that only allow frats to serve alcohol; by default that makes frats the go-to party place and a really dangerous place for women.How about changing this to sports, thug, gamer, random person on the street. I used to go to parties at the fraternity parties because they were safer than the bars or the non-affiliated house parties. Let's hold the specific people responsible and not a group at large. OK, reasonable. Different colleges have different issues and threats. Best to identify the issue for that particular area rather than generalize.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 9, 2016 13:09:47 GMT -5
I don't know why but I'll try again.
Stranger danger was hammered into my head as a child of the 1980's. Don't get into strange vans with strangers, don't take candy from strangers you know the routine.
Researchers decided to put it to the test to see how effective it was. They sent in an actor in a car with the parents/researcher watching behind the scenes on a hidden camera.
To their horror the majority of kids got into the car!
What they discovered was in the child's mind the person in the car was no longer a stranger once he had introduced himself. To a child once you introduce yourself to them and they have your name they consider you to be someone they know and therefore no longer a stranger.
Talk about an "oh shit" moment.
It was just one teeny tiny word that made a huge difference in the outcome. As an adult I understand you are still a stranger if we've just met. A CHILD does not. I cannot apply my logic as an adult to a situation where a child needs to make the decision.
Just because I do not use the words "stranger danger" anymore it does not mean that I tell my daughters they are free to take candy from anyone and get into any car that pulls up along the side of the road.
It's now I am aware I have to change my wording so the actual message I want to convey gets across. Since she's five it's currently very simple: no rides from anyone other than us, grandparents, aunt/uncles or on the school bus for a field trip.
Rape is the same way. By turning every discussion into a "Well I know she's not to blame BUT" debate that sends the message that if you don't do whatever comes after the "but" you are to blame for whatever happens to you. It makes victims not report it because they fear they won't be believed.
That doesn't mean you don't teach someone how to be safe or use common sense. What it means is you change your semantics so you're not sending the wrong message either on purpose or by accident. We need to encourage women to come forward so more assholes are taken off the streets. Hammering home "well you shouldn't have gotten shit faced" isn't going to get them to come forward. They already know that too late to do anything about it now.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:20:58 GMT -5
I agree. I feel like we are all ...which is a complete waste of my energy Nope. Just like the rapists, people who blame rape on the women fall into two categories - those who will do it even when they know it's wrong because in their hearts they truly believe they are justified and those who are doing it because they lack some sort of understanding on part of the issue. We can't change those in category #1, but by educating those in category #2, we can make a difference. You fall into category #1 so we're not trying to change you anyway. But the more the message gets out, there will be readers who are in category #2 (or parents who start educating their children on category #2) and things will eventually get better. So it's all good. lol! Got it. If I don't agree with you I'm stupid.
Just out of curiosity. If you had a daughter, would you tell her not to take any precautions or she shouldn't have to because no one has the right to hurt her? Because you all are focusing on rape but there are plenty of dangers out there that we need to teach our children to protect themselves against. Lord knows I would tell my daughter to avoid walking in the ghetto regardless of what time of day it is. If something happens (like getting mugged, attacked or what not) she is still a victim but she certainly put herself in a situation where something bad can happen. but I guess teaching our children to be smart to try to avoid becoming a victim is bad...not sure how but Queen milee said I'm too stupid to understand
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:23:34 GMT -5
I don't know why but I'll try again. Stranger danger was hammered into my head as a child of the 1980's. Don't get into strange vans with strangers, don't take candy from strangers you know the routine. Researchers decided to put it to the test to see how effective it was. They sent in an actor in a car with the parents/researcher watching behind the scenes on a hidden camera. To their horror the majority of kids got into the car! What they discovered was in the child's mind the person in the car was no longer a stranger once he had introduced himself. To a child once you introduce yourself to them and they have your name they consider you to be someone they know and therefore no longer a stranger. Talk about an "oh shit" moment. It was just one teeny tiny word that made a huge difference in the outcome. As an adult I understand you are still a stranger if we've just met. A CHILD does not. I cannot apply my logic as an adult to a situation where a child needs to make the decision. Just because I do not use the words "stranger danger" anymore it does not mean that I tell my daughters they are free to take candy from anyone and get into any car that pulls up along the side of the road. It's now I am aware I have to change my wording so the actual message I want to convey gets across. Since she's five it's currently very simple: no rides from anyone other than us, grandparents, aunt/uncles or on the school bus for a field trip. Rape is the same way. By turning every discussion into a "Well I know she's not to blame BUT" debate that sends the message that if you don't do whatever comes after the "but" you are to blame for whatever happens to you. It makes victims not report it because they fear they won't be believed. That doesn't mean you don't teach someone how to be safe or use common sense. What it means is you change your semantics so you're not sending the wrong message either on purpose or by accident. We need to encourage women to come forward so more assholes are taken off the streets. Hammering home "well you shouldn't have gotten shit faced" isn't going to get them to come forward. They already know that too late to do anything about it now. I don't understand...all of you "woman shouldn't have to take care of themselves because no one should rape them" are saying there is no way that a woman can do anything to avoid putting herself in a situation where she can be raped (I can quote justme's post to me as an example). So why waste time teaching a child or young woman anything? All I'm getting out of this thread is we need to tell bad people not to rape, murder, steal, etc. Just think, if only parents told psychopaths not to be bad we wouldn't need prisons!
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 9, 2016 13:26:43 GMT -5
The difference is you tell a kid that fire can burn and then he chooses to ignore you and gets burnt. His actions directly led to his getting burnt and the fire is not a sentient being so the fire couldn't choose to burn the kid. So yes, he internalizes if I touch fire I get burnt. Which is true! The fire isn't going to decide to burn him on its own. The issue is all the "preventing" rape discussions is that there's another sentient being out there choosing whether or not to rape. There's a difference between teaching kids to prevent something that their own actions will directly cause or not and teaching people to try and prevent something that their own actions will never cause and will always be the result of someone else's actions. Ok then change my statement from this: If we follow that logic than we shouldn't tell kids that fire can burn, because they might feel bad if they stick their hand in the fire and burn themselves? To this: If we follow that logic than we shouldn't tell kids that fire can burn, because they might feel bad if they get injured in a house fire started by a lightening strike? I see your point, but "feeling bad" isn't what I'm worried about. I'm more concerned with the internalization of the whole idea that they had to have done something wrong, something to invite it, that it really is their fault. If they had only done everything perfectly, it wouldn't have happened to them. I've internalized the "if something bad happens to you, it's because you did something stupid" idea very well and felt it in terms of other, much less traumatic things. It's pretty much what we tell people on this very board about money. If you don't have enough, it's because YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. Very rarely do we say, I see how outside forces contributed to that. My struggle is how do I advise my kids on ways to stay safe WITHOUT implying that if they don't do these things they're horrible people and they deserve it? How do I give them this information and still help them understand that sometimes you get dealt a crappy hand and it is NOT your fault? Maybe I can't, because we're all human and fallible and stupid and so preprogrammed to think this way, but I can and WANT to try. Aside from wanting them to understand it's general safety that all these precautions help, not just "rape prevention".
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:28:45 GMT -5
Anyone who says that not getting drunk prevents rape. Because the converse of that is getting drunk encourages/leads to rape which goes right into blaming the person for getting drunk in the first place...which is a big problem if you read the articles I posted with studies. additionally, someone who was roofied seems to get blamed for drinking too. Even if they were drinking responsibly.
In order to prevent rape, I need to watch my drink, not drink too much, dress appropriately, travel with a buddy, not walk anywhere at night, not go to parties, not hang out with men. Some of the advice is good non genderspecific advice. Some is horseshit, but that's a lot of restrictions on MY behavior to attempt to control what someone else does.
How about we start reframing the conversation as to what is expected from the people who take advantage of people?
Serious question because I know you are very logical and not prone to dramatics. You are a defense attorney and have witnessed lots of bad stuff in your career. Based on your experience with the criminal element do you think that people who go on to rape, murder, abuse children, beat their spouses, etc all just needed to be talked to about why they shouldn't do that? Will people stop raping, stop killing, stop selling drugs, stop stealing, etc. if their parents tell them this is bad and they shouldn't do it?
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milee
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Post by milee on Jun 9, 2016 13:29:09 GMT -5
Nope. Just like the rapists, people who blame rape on the women fall into two categories - those who will do it even when they know it's wrong because in their hearts they truly believe they are justified and those who are doing it because they lack some sort of understanding on part of the issue. We can't change those in category #1, but by educating those in category #2, we can make a difference. You fall into category #1 so we're not trying to change you anyway. But the more the message gets out, there will be readers who are in category #2 (or parents who start educating their children on category #2) and things will eventually get better. So it's all good. lol! Got it. If I don't agree with you I'm stupid.
Just out of curiosity. If you had a daughter, would you tell her not to take any precautions or she shouldn't have to because no one has the right to hurt her? Because you all are focusing on rape but there are plenty of dangers out there that we need to teach our children to protect themselves against. Lord knows I would tell my daughter to avoid walking in the ghetto regardless of what time of day it is. If something happens (like getting mugged, attacked or what not) she is still a victim but she certainly put herself in a situation where something bad can happen. but I guess teaching our children to be smart to try to avoid becoming a victim is bad...not sure how but Queen milee said I'm too stupid to understand
As others have mentioned, if I had a daughter, I'd be teaching her the same thing about safety that I teach my sons. General safety tips - not drinking too much, not walking or driving in certain areas, not leaving valuables unlocked/unattended - are important and good to teach both boys and girls. And I'd do it the same way I do now, by incorporating the safety tips into everyday life.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 9, 2016 13:31:33 GMT -5
I don't know why but I'll try again. Stranger danger was hammered into my head as a child of the 1980's. Don't get into strange vans with strangers, don't take candy from strangers you know the routine. Researchers decided to put it to the test to see how effective it was. They sent in an actor in a car with the parents/researcher watching behind the scenes on a hidden camera. To their horror the majority of kids got into the car! What they discovered was in the child's mind the person in the car was no longer a stranger once he had introduced himself. To a child once you introduce yourself to them and they have your name they consider you to be someone they know and therefore no longer a stranger. Talk about an "oh shit" moment. It was just one teeny tiny word that made a huge difference in the outcome. As an adult I understand you are still a stranger if we've just met. A CHILD does not. I cannot apply my logic as an adult to a situation where a child needs to make the decision. Just because I do not use the words "stranger danger" anymore it does not mean that I tell my daughters they are free to take candy from anyone and get into any car that pulls up along the side of the road. It's now I am aware I have to change my wording so the actual message I want to convey gets across. Since she's five it's currently very simple: no rides from anyone other than us, grandparents, aunt/uncles or on the school bus for a field trip. Rape is the same way. By turning every discussion into a "Well I know she's not to blame BUT" debate that sends the message that if you don't do whatever comes after the "but" you are to blame for whatever happens to you. It makes victims not report it because they fear they won't be believed. That doesn't mean you don't teach someone how to be safe or use common sense. What it means is you change your semantics so you're not sending the wrong message either on purpose or by accident. We need to encourage women to come forward so more assholes are taken off the streets. Hammering home "well you shouldn't have gotten shit faced" isn't going to get them to come forward. They already know that too late to do anything about it now. I don't understand...all of you "woman shouldn't have to take care of themselves because no one should rape them" are saying there is no way that a woman can do anything to avoid putting herself in a situation where she can be raped (I can quote justme's post to me as an example). So why waste time teaching a child or young woman anything? All I'm getting out of this thread is we need to tell bad people not to rape, murder, steal, etc. Just think, if only parents told psychopaths not to be bad we wouldn't need prisons! Please, I'd love to see where I said women shouldn't have to take care of themselves because no one should rape them. Absolutely love to see where I said that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:35:19 GMT -5
Ok then change my statement from this: If we follow that logic than we shouldn't tell kids that fire can burn, because they might feel bad if they stick their hand in the fire and burn themselves? To this: If we follow that logic than we shouldn't tell kids that fire can burn, because they might feel bad if they get injured in a house fire started by a lightening strike? I see your point, but "feeling bad" isn't what I'm worried about. I'm more concerned with the internalization of the whole idea that they had to have done something wrong, something to invite it, that it really is their fault. If they had only done everything perfectly, it wouldn't have happened to them. I've internalized the "if something bad happens to you, it's because you did something stupid" idea very well and felt it in terms of other, much less traumatic things. It's pretty much what we tell people on this very board about money. If you don't have enough, it's because YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. Very rarely do we say, I see how outside forces contributed to that. My struggle is how do I advise my kids on ways to stay safe WITHOUT implying that if they don't do these things they're horrible people and they deserve it? How do I give them this information and still help them understand that sometimes you get dealt a crappy hand and it is NOT your fault? Maybe I can't, because we're all human and fallible and stupid and so preprogrammed to think this way, but I can and WANT to try. Aside from wanting them to understand it's general safety that all these precautions help, not just "rape prevention". I do understand what you are saying. And I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Sometimes bad shit happens no matter what you do. Someone can break into my house tonight and murder me in my sleep. I've taken all of the precautions I can but something can still happen. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to walk into a very bad area at 3 am all by myself because I know I'm at much higher risk of something bad happening. I still don't deserve it but my risk has gone up quite a bit venturing into the ghetto versus sleeping in suburbia. It just is. That's what I'm trying to get through to my daughter. There are bad people out there and we can't stop everything but by not leaving ourselves vulnerable we at least lessen the risk. I honestly have NO idea why anyone in this thread thinks that's a bad thing to teach kids....but to each their own
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2016 13:37:08 GMT -5
That is exactly what we have been saying! YOU are the one focusing it on rape. My point has been that there is a difference between saying "Do X and Y so that you won't get raped" and "Do X and Y so that you'll be safe." The first sentence is not completely true (since there are people who take every precaution and still get raped) and is usually directed only at women. The second sentence applies to everyone.
And no one called you stupid, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what many of us are posting and what you are reading.
Also, and I hope I'm the one misreading this, but the attitude that "someone's going to get raped regardless, as long as it's not my kid" is a little disturbing. I don't want anyone's kid to have to go through that.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:45:55 GMT -5
That is exactly what we have been saying! YOU are the one focusing it on rape. My point has been that there is a difference between saying "Do X and Y so that you won't get raped" and "Do X and Y so that you'll be safe." The first sentence is not completely true (since there are people who take every precaution and still get raped) and is usually directed only at women. The second sentence applies to everyone. And no one called you stupid, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what many of us are posting and what you are reading. Also, and I hope I'm the one misreading this, but the attitude that "someone's going to get raped regardless, as long as it's not my kid" is a little disturbing. I don't want anyone's kid to have to go through that. Of course I don't want anyone's child murdered, raped, etc. But at the end of the day, my job as a parent is to protect MY child. You are a mother to a little girl, if you know a predator is on the loose are you just going to leave your little girl unattended because that sick bastard has no right to steal your kid? Or will you do everything you can to protect her? Unfortunately a child predator is going to get someone's kid but I'm guessing you will do everything in your power to make sure it isn't YOUR kid that gets stolen and killed. I wish we lived in a world when kids weren't murdered, treated as sex slaves, molested, and so on. But our world is full of sick bastards who want to harm someone. I am doing all I can to teach my kid to not be the someone that is snatched. That certainly doesn't mean I want anyone snatched...but until you can get rid of the crazies out there, everyday people are raped, murdered, held captive and all kinds of things that my mind can't even comprehend.
I don't only focus on rape with my daughter but I dont' avoid it either. I have had serious talks with her since she was young about all kinds of bad things. But I am not going to avoid talking about taking precautions against rape because it is ludicrous that as a woman, we aren't supposed to think about protecting ourselves from predators. I have had many of talks about how men can drug her drinks. Or getting too drunk to be able to make a conscious decision or even fight someone off. I've also talked about the dangers of going to bad areas, mouthing off to the kind of people that don't retaliate with words but with knives. The list goes on.
I will never understand where you are coming from so it is a waste of energy to even continue to discuss this. You and a few others in here think telling our daughters about rape dangers is the same as blaming a victim. Yet you have no problem discussing other dangers. As a woman I think that is crazy but that's just me.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 9, 2016 13:48:01 GMT -5
That is exactly what we have been saying! YOU are the one focusing it on rape. My point has been that there is a difference between saying "Do X and Y so that you won't get raped" and "Do X and Y so that you'll be safe." The first sentence is not completely true (since there are people who take every precaution and still get raped) and is usually directed only at women. The second sentence applies to everyone. And no one called you stupid, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what many of us are posting and what you are reading. Also, and I hope I'm the one misreading this, but the attitude that "someone's going to get raped regardless, as long as it's not my kid" is a little disturbing. I don't want anyone's kid to have to go through that. Oh FFS now you are implying that Miss T is advocating that other people get victimized instead of her daughter(s). Are you serious? lol!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 9, 2016 13:59:39 GMT -5
That is exactly what we have been saying! YOU are the one focusing it on rape. My point has been that there is a difference between saying "Do X and Y so that you won't get raped" and "Do X and Y so that you'll be safe." The first sentence is not completely true (since there are people who take every precaution and still get raped) and is usually directed only at women. The second sentence applies to everyone. And no one called you stupid, but there does seem to be a disconnect between what many of us are posting and what you are reading. Also, and I hope I'm the one misreading this, but the attitude that "someone's going to get raped regardless, as long as it's not my kid" is a little disturbing. I don't want anyone's kid to have to go through that. Oh FFS now you are implying that Miss T is advocating that other people get victimized instead of her daughter(s). Are you serious? I wasn't implying anything. That is why I prefaced it with "I hope I'm misreading this," inviting correction if I was. It certainly wouldn't be the first time in this thread that someone read something into a comment that wasn't there (or implied that someone who disagreed with them didn't care about their kid's safety). But that was not my intention. That was how I interpreted this comment: Which implied to me that rape is basically seen as a really bad game of musical chairs where the person who takes the fewest precautions is the one who gets raped. Miss T is free to correct me if this is not what was meant.
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