Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 15:50:53 GMT -5
I get that, do you get what the rest of us are saying? That it's time to have higher expectations than "boys will be boys" and "she shouldn't be wearing that short skirt". That we need to be saying something about changing the thinking as well as trying to teach them ALL to look out for bad situations? YES.. I get it, I've always gotten it. I've never argued against it. I really don't know how many different ways I can say it. I really did think it was crystal clear that I think the rapists are 100% at fault and responsible for their actions. And I don't know how many different ways to say Yes he was wrong BUT.... does nothing helpful. I'm saying it's not about telling women don't do this or that so you don't get raped, it's about telling all our kids these things are wrong, these other things will help keep you out of many bad situations aside from just the one. And saying it at any time, not just when there's a rape case on the news.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jun 8, 2016 15:55:55 GMT -5
Both me and my brother have been subject to multiple conversations about safe sex, smart drinking, drug use and all those other things that can go into discussing how to prevent rape or any other crime. Not drinking excessively, not drinking and driving, using protection, don't take random drugs you're offered, be aware of your surroundings, etc are valid safety instructions for both genders.
Yet I'm the only one that gets lectures about how I need to watch what I wear and don't "give the milk away for free" because it will give men the wrong impression about me. This is supposedly for MY safety so I don't get raped.
Nobody tells my brother not to wear something because he may get raped. Men DO get raped, how often is hard to report since men are even less likely to come forward than women. But it does happen. So why aren't we having conversations with men about what not to wear to attract predators? Why aren't we telling men to "make sure to save themselves" so predators don't get the wrong impression about them?
If that is all valid advice to keep me from getting raped shouldn't my brother also get this information so he too can be protected?
I'm pretty sure we've hammered home to young girls and women how hard they have to work to keep themselves safe from rapists. It's time we start focusing on getting rid of the "boys will be boys" attitude and teach then you are responsible for your little man no matter how much "temptation" is put in front of you.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Jun 8, 2016 15:57:55 GMT -5
We've been having the "what can women do to prevent rape" conversation for several decades now. Maybe it's time for the other one. So in the meantime while you tell boys not to rape you don't give women anything to arm themselves with. Sorry that just seems like a bad idea to me. I am speaking on a societal level (these message board discussions, media coverage, etc.) versus an individual one. I have a daughter, of course I am going to teach her basic safety 101, just like I would if I had a son. But on a national level, I think there is already plenty of information available for women (or parents of girls) on how to remain safe. And the "what was she wearing? did she lead him on?" conversation has been played out in the press ad nauseum, even though statistical evidence bears out that manner of dress or sexual history has almost zero relevance to whether someone is vulnerable to rape. There is much less information out there about how to talk to your sons (or kids in general) about making sure they have consent, what happens if the person you're with is impaired, etc. And until the national conversation shifts tone, there probably won't be.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 16:00:07 GMT -5
And I don't know how many different ways to say Yes he was wrong BUT.... does nothing helpful. I'm saying it's not about telling women don't do this or that so you don't get raped, it's about telling all our kids these things are wrong, these other things will help keep you out of many bad situations aside from just the one. And saying it at any time, not just when there's a rape case on the news. Nobody has said that the only time to have these conversations is when there's a news story. But guess people talk about when there is a big news story about rape.. why yes, rape. It seems like as good as time as any to have both conversations... Men/boys Don't rape Women/girls... be careful and watch out for yourself. I believe it's been admitted and/or alluded to already that most of the time it does only come up when something like this comes up. Like using the sunburned guy as an example of why you need to put on sunscreen. This conversation, as I've been reading it, is about how this tends to come across as victim blaming even when you don't mean it to and maybe we should be more proactive about these conversations. And also, stop worrying about what she was wearing and how many guys she's slept with.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 8, 2016 16:00:19 GMT -5
BTW, in my earlier statement that rape victims are "always" asked about what they were wearing... I know this because I've read studies about what rape victims were wearing. When I was reading the studies it struck me as odd that they'd have all that raw data to work with. I mean, how would the authors of the studies know what the women were wearing? Sadly, one of the authors explained that by noting that what the victim was wearing was almost always noted in the police report and in the few cases it wasn't listed in the police report, it was asked in the depositions. Oh, and if you're curious what the number one most rape inducing outfit was? Sweatpants. Jeans was a distant second. So most of the rape victims were prancing about in irresistable sweatpants. Think if they'd had the audacity to combine that bewitching fashion choice with the ever alluring cardigan sweater? Attack would be a given... It makes sense. Sweatpants are easy to pull off. Ahh, then there's how we stop rapists: let's all start wearing belts and suspenders.
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 16:01:08 GMT -5
So in the meantime while you tell boys not to rape you don't give women anything to arm themselves with. Sorry that just seems like a bad idea to me. I am speaking on a societal level (these message board discussions, media coverage, etc.) versus an individual one. I have a daughter, of course I am going to teach her basic safety 101, just like I would if I had a son. But on a national level, I think there is already plenty of information available for women (or parents of girls) on how to remain safe. And the "what was she wearing? did she lead him on?" conversation has been played out in the press ad nauseum, even though statistical evidence bears out that manner of dress or sexual history has almost zero relevance to whether someone is vulnerable to rape. There is much less information out there about how to talk to your sons (or kids in general) about making sure they have consent, what happens if the person you're with is impaired, etc. And until the national conversation shifts tone, there probably won't be. Agreed.. I really liked the "yes means yes" campaign that one of the colleges was starting (I forget which one). I think that really promotes the idea that you should be getting an active, positive consent before having sex with someone. I hope that becomes more of a thing.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 16:11:58 GMT -5
I kind of think I'm done here. At no time in this thread or any other have I said throw a sheet over our girls so they don't invite rape or that little tart wearing the sweatpants and cardigan really deserves what she gets. However that seems to be what it keeps coming back to and I think that's where we are really failing everyone right now. We're afraid to tell women/girls "Hey be smart bad things happen" and we don't seem to be able to shake the "boys will be boys" nonsense. I'm beginning to think that any conversation is futile and won't really matter in the long run. I agree with you. I have no idea how any intelligent person (and this board is full of them) can equate"take precautions" with blaming the victim. I have no idea why it is so awful to tell our girls not to get so drunk that you have no idea what you are doing, don't walk by yourself in the middle of the night, don't take drinks deom others, etx. It is like we have gone so far the other way that we can see reason.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 16:15:18 GMT -5
I kind of think I'm done here. At no time in this thread or any other have I said throw a sheet over our girls so they don't invite rape or that little tart wearing the sweatpants and cardigan really deserves what she gets. However that seems to be what it keeps coming back to and I think that's where we are really failing everyone right now. We're afraid to tell women/girls "Hey be smart bad things happen" and we don't seem to be able to shake the "boys will be boys" nonsense. I'm beginning to think that any conversation is futile and won't really matter in the long run. I'm not afraid to tell my DD that bad things happen and here are some things to do to help keep them from happening. I'm also not afraid to tell her that, sometimes, despite our best efforts, bad things happen anyway. And that it's not her fault if something does get by her. Because I want THAT beat into her head just as well as don't go walking in dark alleys. I'm also not afraid to tell my boys to stay out of dark alleys. And they all know to keep their damn hands to themselves unless they have permission. What I'm more afraid of is HOW this message is internalized by my kids. I know I'd feel like it was my fault if I got raped, because I'd been taught to be careful and to dress modestly and.... all the BS the lawyers are asking the poor girl in most cases. I'd rather they be angry at the correct person, the rapist.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 16:20:11 GMT -5
That's like asking if anyone has talked to a murderer and explained it is not a good idea to murder. Why is it so wrong to teach our children to not put themselves in vulnerable positions? What is so wrong with ALSO telling the boys that doing something like that is wrong on so many levels? ETA: It's not wrong to teach the kids to watch out for things that are unsafe, but we shouldn't make it about "you're stupid if you don't do this or that" or JUST about "rape prevention". Most of this stuff applies to more than just rape. There is nothin wrong with talking to the bid also. But a rapist isn't going to care. And we can't control the values of other parents. It's a given that you would kick your kids asses if they raped someone. But look at the attitude of the father of this rapist. Do you really think that douche is going to think the same way that you and I do? I have two girls so I am worried about how to keep them safe. I have always talked to my daughters about different situations and when someone puts themselves in a bad position I use it as a teaching moment. Because like it or not, if the girl wasn't completely shit faced odds are the rapist wouldn't have had his chance to rape her. No different than when I left my windows rolled down. The theft of my stuff is on the thief but I certainly didn't do anything to prevent the theft
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 8, 2016 16:25:25 GMT -5
So how many of you have said something to their sons/daughters along the lines of "I love you and always will, etc. ... but there are a few things in life I might not be able to forgive if you did them. Raping somebody makes that list..."?
Believe it or not, I have been known to make that statement. My sons know that, while I didn't spank them or hit them or beat them during their childhoods, I did reserve that right for certain outrageous, unacceptable, wrong behaviors. Among other wrongdoings that I have clearly identified to them, they will tell you that their mother (me) will most definitely kick their ass if they ever attack a woman verbally, emotionally, physically and/or sexually. Sex is NOT a right. Sex requires TWO consenting partners. If one of the partners does not, or cannot, consent, then it is NOT sex. It is rape. Plain and simple. And no man worthy of being called a man rapes a woman. In my conversations with my sons over the years, I was always crystal clear about my expectations for their behavior towards women and why those expectations were what they were. I have to say, in just my own 56 years on this rock, women have made enormous strides in rights, privileges, and opportunities. We may not be equal to men in all areas (i.e., pay), but kids these days don't see women as being incapable or inappropriate for certain jobs or sports or hobbies. It is rather common around here for girls to play on boys' high school hockey teams (higher level of competition) and high school football teams (there are no counterparts for girls). All that matters is the level of atheltic skill, not the gender. So, my job guiding my sons in their respect for women was relatively easy given how they have always seen women as equals, not chattel or lesser beings. It has also helped immensely that DH respects me and treats me as an equal. While we all screw up from time to time, and I do allow for "free-passes" for some minor, victimless, stupidity, I also insist that my sons "own" their larger misdeeds (just ask ODS about how I handled his getting caught with alcohol in his dorm room during his freshman year ). I'd like to think I would handle a hard crime the same way and never try to excuse or diminish my son's behavior. Nevertheless, I do pray that I have done all that I possibly can to ensure that my sons never, ever, think rape is "20 minutes of activity".
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 16:27:31 GMT -5
What is so wrong with ALSO telling the boys that doing something like that is wrong on so many levels? ETA: It's not wrong to teach the kids to watch out for things that are unsafe, but we shouldn't make it about "you're stupid if you don't do this or that" or JUST about "rape prevention". Most of this stuff applies to more than just rape. There is nothin wrong with talking to the bid also. But a rapist isn't going to care. And we can't control the values of other parents. It's a given that you would kick your kids asses if they raped someone. But look at the attitude of the father of this rapist. Do you really think that douche is going to think the same way that you and I do? I have two girls so I am worried about how to keep them safe. I have always talked to my daughters about different situations and when someone puts themselves in a bad position I use it as a teaching moment. Because like it or not, if the girl wasn't completely shit faced odds are the rapist wouldn't have had his chance to rape her. No different than when I left my windows rolled down. The theft of my stuff is on the thief but I certainly didn't do anything to prevent the theft The only kids I have control of what they are taught are mine. I do teach them to look out for this stuff and to be safe, but not only because of ONE possible crime. I try to not link it to anything other than personal safety. That's my way of doing it. BECAUSE of all the stuff I've been saying. I know other parents suck, and that my kids are going to encounter those that think having drinks at the frat party (or wherever) that are enough to knock a person on their ass in one drink or less is a great idea. I know I can't possibly follow them around and keep them perfectly safe, so yes, I tell them about these things. BUT I try hard to make clear that IF THEY SCREW UP it's still not their fault. Even if they get blackout drunk, I won't blame them for what happened. This is what I'm trying to get across here. That HOW we present these precautions is important because I know what I've internalized even if it wasn't meant that way. I'd like to change the bigger picture attitude but that is something that will take a generation or more, but it has to start somewhere. I'm starting with how I present all of this to my kids. I hope you (general you, not Tequila you) do the same.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 16:28:50 GMT -5
I'm not afraid to tell my DD that bad things happen and here are some things to do to help keep them from happening. I'm also not afraid to tell her that, sometimes, despite our best efforts, bad things happen anyway. And that it's not her fault if something does get by her. Because I want THAT beat into her head just as well as don't go walking in dark alleys. I'm also not afraid to tell my boys to stay out of dark alleys. And they all know to keep their damn hands to themselves unless they have permission. ... I think you should start a campaign that says exactly this. Feel free to share it
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jun 8, 2016 16:30:07 GMT -5
Just an FYI, I'm gone for the evening, not ignoring anyone else that has anything to say.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Jun 8, 2016 16:35:08 GMT -5
There is nothin wrong with talking to the bid also. But a rapist isn't going to care. And we can't control the values of other parents. It's a given that you would kick your kids asses if they raped someone. But look at the attitude of the father of this rapist. Do you really think that douche is going to think the same way that you and I do? I have two girls so I am worried about how to keep them safe. I have always talked to my daughters about different situations and when someone puts themselves in a bad position I use it as a teaching moment. Because like it or not, if the girl wasn't completely shit faced odds are the rapist wouldn't have had his chance to rape her. No different than when I left my windows rolled down. The theft of my stuff is on the thief but I certainly didn't do anything to prevent the theft The only kids I have control of what they are taught are mine. I do teach them to look out for this stuff and to be safe, but not only because of ONE possible crime. I try to not link it to anything other than personal safety. That's my way of doing it. BECAUSE of all the stuff I've been saying. I know other parents suck, and that my kids are going to encounter those that think having drinks at the frat party (or wherever) that are enough to knock a person on their ass in one drink or less is a great idea. I know I can't possibly follow them around and keep them perfectly safe, so yes, I tell them about these things. BUT I try hard to make clear that IF THEY SCREW UP it's still not their fault. Even if they get blackout drunk, I won't blame them for what happened. This is what I'm trying to get across here. That HOW we present these precautions is important because I know what I've internalized even if it wasn't meant that way. I'd like to change the bigger picture attitude but that is something that will take a generation or more, but it has to start somewhere. I'm starting with how I present all of this to my kids. I hope you (general you, not Tequila you) do the same. I agree with what you are saying. I do tell my daughter about drinking too much and becoming prey for a psychopath (she is only 17 but Im not naive enough to think she won't drink or hasn't drank). I give real life examples in all of my teachings...from my niece who chose her college major poorly, my cousin who is a drug addict to people in the news. I think driving home a point is where the lesson is
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 8, 2016 16:42:46 GMT -5
I kind of think I'm done here. At no time in this thread or any other have I said throw a sheet over our girls so they don't invite rape or that little tart wearing the sweatpants and cardigan really deserves what she gets. However that seems to be what it keeps coming back to and I think that's where we are really failing everyone right now. We're afraid to tell women/girls "Hey be smart bad things happen" and we don't seem to be able to shake the "boys will be boys" nonsense. I'm beginning to think that any conversation is futile and won't really matter in the long run. I agree with you. I have no idea how any intelligent person (and this board is full of them) can equate"take precautions" with blaming the victim. I have no idea why it is so awful to tell our girls not to get so drunk that you have no idea what you are doing, don't walk by yourself in the middle of the night, don't take drinks deom others, etx. It is like we have gone so far the other way that we can see reason. From my personal experience - I have heard people in real life phrase their thoughts about rape/rapists and who's responsible with some of the same words as have been bandied about here that are said to NOT place blame on the victim but when spoken out loud THEY WERE BLAMING THE VICTIM. So, basically they would say "well, you know, it's sad that happen. Too bad she didn't take precautions" with the implied "It's her own fault, she was asking for it. If she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have had so many drinks. I WOULDN"T drink that much!"
Maybe that's why there's so much emphasis put on the semantics and/or 'common phrases" that we use to talk about these kinds of things.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 8, 2016 16:52:44 GMT -5
I also find it interesting that girls need to be schooled in the dozens of ways to stay safe (don't drink too much, don't wear flirty clothing, don't go anywhere alone, and on and on...) over and over and over again during their lifetime --- and yet no one sez what they say to boys about this subject - (well, other than GRG aka GoldenRuleGirl). How come she's the only one who explicitly outlined situations and what the required behavior was for BOYS/MEN? Or maybe a parent mentions it once or twice in passing and it's enough?
(it's kinda like how the pregnancy warnings about Zika are ONLY aimed at women... cause you know they have 100% total control over when or if they will become pregnant. Guys don't really need to be concerned about Zika or if their wife/girlfriend will get pregnant... it's not part of their responsibility.)
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Jun 8, 2016 18:02:46 GMT -5
I also find it interesting that girls need to be schooled in the dozens of ways to stay safe (don't drink too much, don't wear flirty clothing, don't go anywhere alone, and on and on...) over and over and over again during their lifetime --- and yet no one sez what they say to boys about this subject - (well, other than GRG aka GoldenRuleGirl). How come she's the only one who explicitly outlined situations and what the required behavior was for BOYS/MEN? Or maybe a parent mentions it once or twice in passing and it's enough? (it's kinda like how the pregnancy warnings about Zika are ONLY aimed at women... cause you know they have 100% total control over when or if they will become pregnant. Guys don't really need to be concerned about Zika or if their wife/girlfriend will get pregnant... it's not part of their responsibility.) There are a ton of similar examples. It was the mom's fault that the boy got in the gorilla enclosure even though the dad was at the zoo too. If the house is a mess its because of my failings even though dh works less than half of what I do, and dh is considered a great dad for spending time with the kids without me. It's the random comments that people don't even think about that show our inner bias with this stuff, and when you point it out they will typically deny it--even though they just freaking said it.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 8, 2016 18:14:25 GMT -5
I also find it interesting that girls need to be schooled in the dozens of ways to stay safe (don't drink too much, don't wear flirty clothing, don't go anywhere alone, and on and on...) over and over and over again during their lifetime --- and yet no one sez what they say to boys about this subject - (well, other than GRG aka GoldenRuleGirl). How come she's the only one who explicitly outlined situations and what the required behavior was for BOYS/MEN? Or maybe a parent mentions it once or twice in passing and it's enough? (it's kinda like how the pregnancy warnings about Zika are ONLY aimed at women... cause you know they have 100% total control over when or if they will become pregnant. Guys don't really need to be concerned about Zika or if their wife/girlfriend will get pregnant... it's not part of their responsibility.) There are a ton of similar examples. It was the mom's fault that the boy got in the gorilla enclosure even though the dad was at the zoo too. If the house is a mess its because of my failings even though dh works less than half of what I do, and dh is considered a great dad for spending time with the kids without me. It's the random comments that people don't even think about that show our inner bias with this stuff, and when you point it out they will typically deny it--even though they just freaking said it. That's why I often disagree with the "I'm tired of politically correct language" people. Language is in fact extremely powerful - and constantly serves to point out inner biases - for good OR for not-so-good.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 18:49:57 GMT -5
I honestly think its possible the boy at some time in his development might have responded to being talked to... because its obvious he never heard at home that this behavior was unacceptable. His father has made that clear. Its quite possible he wasn't a 'born rapist' and would have responded appropriately had he been socialized to realize what rape looks like and how he should have chosen to act.
If you understand what I mean?... Ever time i try to respons to this thread it doesn't come out right...
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jun 8, 2016 19:10:14 GMT -5
I talk to my boys all the time about appropriate behavior, how to treat women, and not to get so drunk that they pass out. We discuss social situation where a couple has sex and he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't. If you put yourself in that situation, you can get in trouble even if you think you did the right thing. If you get into a position of he said, she said you could be in trouble. So don't get girls drunk. Don't have sex with drunk girls. Some girls lie.
Also to the poster who mentioned Zola virus, it is not being sexist to tell women to avoid places where Zola is present. It is a medical issue. Zika is a mild virus for most, but does harm to the fetus, so it is a huge issue for pregnant women. Everyone should be concerned about its spread but any women who are pregnant or could become pregnant need to take special precautions.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jun 8, 2016 19:18:18 GMT -5
Read most of the thread, wanted to comment on a few things:
Rapes are not the only crimes when the "victim" gets grilled. Car accidents is another example. Rapes are not the only crimes where the logic of "should have been more careful" is present. After my car was broken into 3 times at the same location- well, not broken into, I never locked the door, the cops didn't even show up anymore. I am pretty sure I knew exactly what they were thinking.
Rape is very unique (for the lack of a better word) crime. Bc no other crime can go from "I had the best night of my life" to "I was violated to my core" in NY minute. I can't think of any other crime that intent can be questionable. And also there are instances where victims actually lied about the whole thing or part of it. So, yes, I can somewhat see why parties are questioned the way they are.
My boys are way too young to have that conversation, but I treat personal body and space topic quite different to begin with. I have ingrained into them from very early age that no one is allowed to touch anyone else without permission. And I don't think it should gender specific at all.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 19:21:49 GMT -5
People spend too much time teaching girls how to act, how to protect themselves and not enough time teaching boys what isn't acceptable.
I'm sure this girl has even had her parents tell her how to stay safe. But I bet you this father never told his father not to rape a girl and it isn't acceptable considering his response. You can just sense he feels like "sex is granted to men."
And the point is there's no point saying "It wasn't her fault BUT..." because rape happens rather a female has been drinking or not. There's always a BUT. Someone always has a BUT to try to put some fort of blame on the female.
And honestly? I wouldn't be surprised if this wasn't the first time the boys done something like this. Most cases of rape it's found out that it isn't the first encounter...this is just the first time he could be caught.
The thought of raping someone...drunk or not... every man that gets drunk doesn't think to rape someone. There's no saying if this man has thought about doing this before. There's no saying if he's pressured girls to sleep with him. There's no say if he's done it before but I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he had and he's just now getting caught...
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 19:35:28 GMT -5
there is always a contingent that cannot control themselves from continuing past the point of "the rapist is at fault". Is there any way to get from the first part to the second part? Ie. If you wait 10 minutes, between "the rapist is at fault" and going through a list of how to protect oneself is that an acceptable break so that you are not qualifying the first statement? What if you put put a bunch of words in between the two? Does that adequately separate the two? What if you separate them by a night's sleep? ie. one day you say "the rapist is at fault" and then the next day you say, "to protect yourself you should do the following." I guess my questions is, can you get there from here? Or do you just have to stop at "the rapist is at fault" and never mention the list? I don't know if this has been answered like this....But there's no fucking way to "protect yourself". It's utter bullshit built by women who want to believe if they just do X it won't happen to them and men who want to find some reason why the douchebag did what he did other then him being a predatory, asshole, violent, rapist. Women have been raped in any manner of dress - including a burka. They've been raped in an back alley and their own home. They've been raped by strangers and their own fucking fathers. They've been raped passed out drunk and stone cold sober. They've been raped at 3am in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. They've been raped out by themselves and with their with friends (sometimes by the damn "friend"). Sure we can make ourselves feel better by following these "protections". Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't. But it's such utter and total bullshit to perpetuate that if women just do X they can protect themselves from being raped. You want to know how to stop women from being raped? Tell men to only have sex with women when she says yes, to stop if she ever says no, leave intoxicated women alone, and actually put the assholes that do rape in prison.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 19:46:37 GMT -5
So how many of you have said something to their sons/daughters along the lines of "I love you and always will, etc. ... but there are a few things in life I might not be able to forgive if you did them. Raping somebody makes that list..."?
Believe it or not, I have been known to make that statement. Not picking on you, but I think a lot of people say that - but how many explain what all entails rape? Most still think a stranger grabbing a vulnerable our sexist dressed woman when they think rape. When the reality is most are raped by someone they know, often someone they trust. When this topic comes up I always think of the scary ass study that came out not too long ago. When asked if a guy would rape someone if they could, most said no. When they asked the same guys if they would use force to have sex there was a huge up tick to those that said yes to a rather large and scary percent. Why do men think using force to get sex isn't rape?!!!! Boys and men need to be told more than just don't rape - they need to be taught about consent and all the things that actually are rape not just force to get sex or ignoring a no.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 8, 2016 19:57:18 GMT -5
justme believe me I did discuss more than just that one statement. Our discussions were just too long snd happened over such a long period of time, that it was just too much to go into the details here. And by the way, while rape was on my rather short "unforgivable" list it was by no means the only item on there.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 20:00:51 GMT -5
I talk to my boys all the time about appropriate behavior, how to treat women, and not to get so drunk that they pass out. We discuss social situation where a couple has sex and he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't. If you put yourself in that situation, you can get in trouble even if you think you did the right thing. If you get into a position of he said, she said you could be in trouble. So don't get girls drunk. Don't have sex with drunk girls. Some girls lie. Also to the poster who mentioned Zola virus, it is not being sexist to tell women to avoid places where Zola is present. It is a medical issue. Zika is a mild virus for most, but does harm to the fetus, so it is a huge issue for pregnant women. Everyone should be concerned about its spread but any women who are pregnant or could become pregnant need to take special precautions. I think the point is they've found its sexually transmitted and lives in semen long after symptoms subsided. But none of the warnings say for men with pregnant wives or are thinking of getting their wives shouldn't travel to those areas. At least not that I've seen. Though I did hear about an Olympic that's passing on the games for fear of passing it onto his pregnant wife.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 20:07:36 GMT -5
justme believe me I did discuss more than just that one statement. Our discussions were just too long snd happened over such a long period of time, that it was just too much to go into the details here. And by the way, while rape was on my rather short "unforgivable" list it was by no means the only item on there. From your posts on here I totally believe you did. All these months later it's just still rocked me to my core how many times men said yes to whether they would x if they could/presented with opportunity that was rape, the question just didn't use the word rape so to them it wasn't rape and said yes I'd do that. I'm way more scared about how society is failing to teach men how many different aspects besides a stranger in an alley is rape than to walk down an alley in a mini skirt.
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Kolt!
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Post by Kolt! on Jun 8, 2016 21:13:06 GMT -5
What beats me is how this thread originally started with talking about how this man deserves a bigger punishment, can it get more reduced, and can it get a bigger sentence in appeal...
Some how the victim gets brought up into it. People are saying they agree he's 100 percent at fault and then do the "But she could have...."
Why'd anyone feel the need to bring in the victim in a discussion about a man that raped someone and what his punishment should entitle?
When one brought up the victim that did entail starting a discussion about how she was at fault. There could be a discussion about the sexual predator without needing to bring in the victim and how she could have prevented this.
As much as someone wants to say that they 100 percent believe that the predators at fault... to then mention something about the female...you are putting her at fault.
There was no need to bring up the victim which even media tends to like to do to lessen what the man did. When the victim was brought up into this thread the first time it was as if it was saying...
"Well wait a minute! Didn't this girl not take all the precautions she should have? Therefore, maybe his sentence shouldn't be so heavy." at least in my opinion when the first "But" appeared that's how I partook it because why else would one feel the need to bring up the victim in a thread based around what needs to happen to the sicko?
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Jun 8, 2016 21:15:53 GMT -5
Is there any way to get from the first part to the second part? Ie. If you wait 10 minutes, between "the rapist is at fault" and going through a list of how to protect oneself is that an acceptable break so that you are not qualifying the first statement? What if you put put a bunch of words in between the two? Does that adequately separate the two? What if you separate them by a night's sleep? ie. one day you say "the rapist is at fault" and then the next day you say, "to protect yourself you should do the following." I guess my questions is, can you get there from here? Or do you just have to stop at "the rapist is at fault" and never mention the list? I don't know if this has been answered like this....But there's no fucking way to "protect yourself". It's utter bullshit built by women who want to believe if they just do X it won't happen to them and men who want to find some reason why the douchebag did what he did other then him being a predatory, asshole, violent, rapist. Women have been raped in any manner of dress - including a burka. They've been raped in an back alley and their own home. They've been raped by strangers and their own fucking fathers. They've been raped passed out drunk and stone cold sober. They've been raped at 3am in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. They've been raped out by themselves and with their with friends (sometimes by the damn "friend"). Sure we can make ourselves feel better by following these "protections". Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't. But it's such utter and total bullshit to perpetuate that if women just do X they can protect themselves from being raped. You want to know how to stop women from being raped? Tell men to only have sex with women when she says yes, to stop if she ever says no, leave intoxicated women alone, and actually put the assholes that do rape in prison. I agree and I disagree. Just as you say there is no way for a woman to fucking protect herself from rape, there is also no way to tell men to only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not going to stop a man from raping his daughter by telling him to only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not going to stop a man from breaking into a woman's home, putting a knife to her throat and raping her by telling him to only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not gong to stop a group of men from deciding that they are going to gang rape a woman, just because, by telling them to only have sex with women when she says yes. But we can prevent some rapes by continually educating men about what rape is. About yes means yes. About not having sex with intoxicated women, etc. We can prevent some rapes by making sure to prosecute rapists to the full extent of the law. We can prevent some rapes by educating women how protect themselves and take precaution and to report rape so that the rapist does not go out and do it again.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 8, 2016 21:22:35 GMT -5
I don't know if this has been answered like this....But there's no fucking way to "protect yourself". It's utter bullshit built by women who want to believe if they just do X it won't happen to them and men who want to find some reason why the douchebag did what he did other then him being a predatory, asshole, violent, rapist. Women have been raped in any manner of dress - including a burka. They've been raped in an back alley and their own home. They've been raped by strangers and their own fucking fathers. They've been raped passed out drunk and stone cold sober. They've been raped at 3am in the morning and 2 in the afternoon. They've been raped out by themselves and with their with friends (sometimes by the damn "friend"). Sure we can make ourselves feel better by following these "protections". Maybe they'll work and maybe they won't. But it's such utter and total bullshit to perpetuate that if women just do X they can protect themselves from being raped. You want to know how to stop women from being raped? Tell men to only have sex with women when she says yes, to stop if she ever says no, leave intoxicated women alone, and actually put the assholes that do rape in prison. I agree and I disagree. Just as you say there is no way for a woman to fucking protect herself from rape, there is also no way to tell men only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not going to stop a man from raping his daughter by telling him to only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not going to stop a man from breaking into a woman's home, putting a knife to her throat and raping her by telling him to him to only have sex with women when she says yes. You are not gong to stop a group of men from deciding that they are going to gang rape a woman, just because, by telling them to only have sex with women when she says yes. But we can prevent some rapes by continually education men about what rape is. About yes means yes. About not having sex with intoxication women, etc. We can prevent some rapes by making sure to prosecute rapists to the full extent of the law. We can prevent some rapes by educating women how protect themselves and take precaution and to report rape so that the rapist does not go out and do it again. I agree. Your first paragraph falls under my last part of making sure these assholes go to prison. Unfortunately there's going to be horrible people that do horrible things no matter how informed they are or how we appeal to them. But there's unfortunately a number of guys that don't realize where the line is and cross it thinking the line is a stranger grabbing a girl as she walks by an alley. Those we can stop with better education and changing society. Eta: I'm honestly not sure on the split between the two, but considering the number of women raped by someone they know I'm optimistic (and I'm actually 100% a pessimist) that if the finer nuances of rape beyond stranger in an alley are properly taught the horrendous number of rapes will decrease.
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