I did not cheat.....

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

aka:  You cannot prove a negative.  You'd think an engineer would understand this concept.

Last week, I had an assignment due that I had completed the week before.  As I was already working on the one due today, I could not answer questions immediately as to how I drew the figure (the room was noisy, my brain was in another place and I'm sure I could have figured it out if the instructor was not hanging over my head asking questions).  It's not a requirement to be able to answer questions as to how I draw the figure.  My bad - perhaps I should have but this has never been an issue before.

I got a big fat goose egg on the assignment and it didn't dawn on me until about 3 am the next morning that he thought I cheated.  I spoke to him in his office last Thursday and assured him that I drew the figure myself.  Apparently he didn't believe me, because my score remained 0.  I called him on it again today and he asked me to meet him again after class.  I did and asked him why he thought I cheated - especially since answering questions is not in the rubric as to how he grades.  His office mate immediately stuck her nose in, and I told her that this is not her problem and to mind her own business (yes, she was quite insulted).  The instructor insisted that I *should* draw the figure right then and there.  Uh, no.  I don't have to prove that didn't cheat, YOU have to prove that I cheated.  Me drawing the figure again doesn't prove that I didn't cheat.  If I cheated, prove it (he can't).

Ironically enough, he has the means to do so.  He has a copy of my submitted figure and all he has to do is compare the order that I drew to others (all lines/features fall into a tree in a particular order).  No one draws in the same order, or from the same place.   However, it would require some work on his part - work that he does not seem inclined to do as he does not even teach the class.  The whole flipping class is being taught by videos that we had to buy on top of paying for the class.  He has not taught anything that isn't in the videos.

So tomorrow I have a meeting with the dean of Engineering.  Up until today, I was ready to let this slide but him not even bothering to look at my figure and see that I drew it pisses me off to no end.  In the back of my head, I keep thinking it's only 2 months, I can handle 2 months of this shit.  However, I do not think I will get a fair break with him.  The only reason why I would not drop the class would be so I can be a thorn in his side.....and to be honest, that would not prove my point.  I'd be learning despite him (via videos) and that's not why he is getting paid.  At the very least, I want him to get off his ass and do his freaking job!

I'm pissed beyond belief.  My brain is warring like crazy right now and I need to have some sort of game plan tomorrow am when I see the dean.  What am I missing?

[suesinfl]

Hugs Mich, it sucks and I hope that you get this resolved, I hate being told I did something that I did not do that has a negative impact on my life.

[CCL]

I would not let a 0 slide. Screw that! I had a professor who gave me a B instead of the A I earned. When I questioned him on it I got no response. I contacted his department head and no response from him either. After that, I contacted the provost and within a couple of hours, I had my A. If you can substantiate your side of the story, I say keep pursuing it.

[wmpeon]

I would suggest that you be prepared to go to the dean with evidence, even if that means redrawing the figure.  I understand you're angry, but it's unlikely you will get anywhere with the dean if your argument is about feeling insulted and angry, when the dean will be looking for proof of wrongdoing.  Having examples to show how your drawing could easily be proven as valid may also be helpful.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I'd be prepared to draw it also, but after I explained why I was annoyed. 
Plan wise: 
1) Have the rubric
2) Have the question
3) Have how you answered the question
4) Have the outline of the conversation with the dean

Part of the problem may stem from the fact that you are a fully functional, already fully educated adult on your second career. The professor may not be used to dealing with non-traditional students and isn't used to being questioned.

[Deleted]

Oh man, I would be so pissed!   I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. 

[msventoux]

I would review the student code of conduct and see what the process is for students suspected of cheating.  At my school I think the teacher was required to initiate a formal disciplinary process if cheating was suspected, not just give a student a 0.  The instructor may not be following the institution's policies, which could be just as much or more of a problem than a student potentially cheating. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

What you don't seem to understand that if I redraw the figure, THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT I DID NOT CHEAT.  You cannot prove a negative, and that is what he is asking me to do.  Could I redraw it?  Yes, but it would probably take me a few hours.  It took me about 6 hours the first time.  

He has the ability to PROVE that I cheated.  All he has to do us compare my drawing to others and show that my 30 different figures, dimensions, planes and constraints are identical to someone else's.  Each are numbered, so if I delete one type of constraint and replace it with another, the number changes.  I delete and redraw a lot.

I offered to answer the question when the chaos died down, but he doesn't care now.

I cannot prove my drawing is like no other as I do not have access to the rest of the class's drawings.  Only the instructor does.  Besides, if he is claiming I cheated, he needs to be able to defend his allegations.  His only defense that I cheated is that I couldn't answer the question.

Finally, the guy that sits next to me says he is willing to go to the dean and back me up. So are about 4 other people in the class.  In fact, it is a running joke in class that I'm working when people arrive and after they leave.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I do understand. What is your goal: to have the zero replaced with your legitimate grade or to get the guy to say you didn't cheat. 

I'm sitting back here without emotional attachment to this situation. If I were you, I'd be livid. You asked what to do tomorrow with the dean. I gave an unbiased plan based on the goal to have the zero replaced. If you want an apology from the guy and an "I don't think you cheated statement", I don't think you'll get it. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

At this point, I don't think I'll get a fair break from him the rest of the semester if I force him to prove I cheated, but I want him to put up, or shut up.  It is easier for him to say this with no proof and because he is the instructor, get away with it.  I'm not the only person he has done this to, but I'm the wrong person to tangle with.

I checked the cheating policy, and what is written is really sketchy.  There is no formal process.

[Wisconsin Beth]

How'd the meeting go?

[Apple]

I'd be pissed too, sorry you have to deal with this!

[Tiny]

May 2, 2016 22:31:36 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

What you don't seem to understand that if I redraw the figure, THAT DOES NOT PROVE THAT I DID NOT CHEAT.  You cannot prove a negative, and that is what he is asking me to do.  Could I redraw it?  Yes, but it would probably take me a few hours.  It took me about 6 hours the first time.  

The thing is - this probably isn't about proving you 'cheated'. You are hung up on the semantics and placing blame.

I agree you need to resolve the issue of the 0 grade... but it sounds like you are going after a "strawman" and not spending the time/energy on the actual issue.

FWIW: could it be that the instructor thinks you had someone else do your work?  (it's not a copy of someone else's work - someone else actually DID your work?)  So that the order, date, time, revisions of the original drawing wouldn't actually prove that YOU did the work?   My guess is that's why he asked you to recreate the drawing - if someone else did the work for you (using your logon, etc) you might not be able to reproduce the work.   

 

I did most of the coding work/lab assignments for a class for my brother when he was in night school.   The coding/lab work was pretty much a one time thing for his course of study - so he wasn't missing out on much... I'm sure he pulled a B or an A in the class... without actually doing any of the  'busy work'.  

ADDED: I sold a lot of 'one of a kind' code at the Community College - I liked to program and to do the same assignments different ways - you know - put in alittle flair here and there or just go minimalist. The buyers didn't do the work - but they also didn't get a copy of code (atleast not from me...).

[tloonya]

I know someone who is teaching older students in University. She is the one who willing to work with older students when no one else would. I don't understand why does it make difference what age student is. NOW I am thinking maybe professors ARE having dislike of older students for...being mature and standing up for themselves IF things are happening.

So I am positive about you must resolve the issue. You have not cheated so you are deserve your A.

Don't let it slide. And good luck!

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

The thing is - this probably isn't about proving you 'cheated'. You are hung up on the semantics and placing blame.

No I am not.  If you are going to make allegations about someone cheating, you better have proof.  The program that we are working with has unique features that MY work comes from MY program.  No one else can sign into my account.

FWIW: could it be that the instructor thinks you had someone else do your work? (it's not a copy of someone else's work - someone else actually DID your work?) So that the order, date, time, revisions of the original drawing wouldn't actually prove that YOU did the work? My guess is that's why he asked you to recreate the drawing - if someone else did the work for you (using your logon, etc) you might not be able to reproduce the work.

If you consider that I spent way more time in the computer lab than most AND he has seen me working on various assignments, this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  I sit at my computer, with my logon, doing my work.  No one else clicks my mouse other than me while I am logged on.  Impossible with the way it's set up.

I did most of the coding work/lab assignments for a class for my brother when he was in night school. The coding/lab work was pretty much a one time thing for his course of study - so he wasn't missing out on much... I'm sure he pulled a B or an A in the class... without actually doing any of the 'busy work'.

So you cheated for your brother.  Nice of you, but I don't cheat.  I don't do anyone else's work, and I don't expect anyone to do my work.  I need to know this program in order to make myself marketable so me cheating only cheats me, it doesn't cheat the system.  Me not learning how to work this program is not in my best interest.

ADDED: I sold a lot of 'one of a kind' code at the Community College - I liked to program and to do the same assignments different ways - you know - put in alittle flair here and there or just go minimalist. The buyers didn't do the work - but they also didn't get a copy of code (atleast not from me...).

Thanks for contributing to the problem.  I don't think that this is anything to be proud of, as you are as guilty of cheating as the person who is searching out your services.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 17:12:38 GMT -5 tloonya said:

I know someone who is teaching older students in University. She is the one who willing to work with older students when no one else would. I don't understand why does it make difference what age student is. NOW I am thinking maybe professors ARE having dislike of older students for...being mature and standing up for themselves IF things are happening.

So I am positive about you must resolve the issue. You have not cheated so you are deserve your A.

Don't let it slide. And good luck!

Thanks, Looney.  I seriously doubt that anything will get resolved with this.  The instructor cannot bring formal charges against me, as there is no way he can do so with the way things are set up.  He has no proof.  I think he doesn't realize that I understand very clearly how the tracking is done (because it is similar to another program that I work with by the same company) and now he realizes he can't intimidate me.  

[Miss Tequila]

Other than being angry, why can't you just show him how you drew it?

Im also one that would let a cop search my car because I know I have nothing to hide. I figure why make a stink when Im right because it isn't worth the hassle

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 20:04:10 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Other than being angry, why can't you just show him how you drew it?

Im also one that would let a cop search my car because I know I have nothing to hide. I figure why make a stink when Im right because it isn't worth the hassle

Because it took me about 6 hours to draw it the first time.  The second time, I imagine it will take about 2 hours.  If my ass is going to be sitting in front of the program, it's going to be working on the 10,000 things I have yet to do, not repeating something I have already done.

[Deleted]

You say it can't be done. But if you had the intention to cheat, somebody else could be using your login, your programto draw on your behalf unless the program records your face or fingerprint, which i highly doubt. I understand you did not cheat and you are offended because you consider cheating completrly unacceptable... But the teacher doesn't know you as well as you know yourself. You did the work but you couldn't even begin to explain so i can see why he thinks you may have cheated. Don't get me wrong but most of the time older people are not the greatest with learning new programs. Maybe his possible biase against an older student combined with your zero explanation made him conclude that you must have cheated.

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

May 3, 2016 20:07:49 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 3, 2016 20:04:10 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

Other than being angry, why can't you just show him how you drew it?

Im also one that would let a cop search my car because I know I have nothing to hide. I figure why make a stink when Im right because it isn't worth the hassle

Because it took me about 6 hours to draw it the first time.  The second time, I imagine it will take about 2 hours.  If my ass is going to be sitting in front of the program, it's going to be working on the 10,000 things I have yet to do, not repeating something I have already done.

Again, I completely understand why you're upset. 

If it comes down to passing this class or not, isn't it worth the two hours? 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 20:15:26 GMT -5 Knee Deep in Water Chloe said:

May 3, 2016 20:07:49 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Because it took me about 6 hours to draw it the first time.  The second time, I imagine it will take about 2 hours.  If my ass is going to be sitting in front of the program, it's going to be working on the 10,000 things I have yet to do, not repeating something I have already done.

Again, I completely understand why you're upset. 

If it comes down to passing this class or not, isn't it worth the two hours? 

No.  He is not teaching the class.  If the instructor was teaching the program, I'd make the effort.  Right now, I'm teaching myself through online videos and help from my classmates and it truly sucks because we all spin our wheels spending a lot of time trying to figure out idiosyncrasies of the program that he was hired to teach us.  The one good thing that has come with regards to this class is that we have all gotten to know each other better because when we finally figure something out, everyone shares as to how they do it.  But that does not mean that we do each other's work.

 But at this point, I am spending from 7 am until 4-5 pm at the college already.  If I am not on the computer working on another assignment, I am in class.  I simply do not have the time to reiterate something that I have already done, and quite frankly....by the time I complete what I need to complete, I'm wiped.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 20:13:18 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

You say it can't be done. But if you had the intention to cheat, somebody else could be using your login, your programto draw on your behalf unless the program records your face or fingerprint, which i highly doubt. I understand you did not cheat and you are offended because you consider cheating completrly unacceptable... But the teacher doesn't know you as well as you know yourself. You did the work but you couldn't even begin to explain so i can see why he thinks you may have cheated. Don't get me wrong but most of the time older people are not the greatest with learning new programs. Maybe his possible biase against an older student combined with your zero explanation made him conclude that you must have cheated.

I cannot prove I did not cheat.  You cannot prove a negative.  However, he can prove that I did cheat and he can't do that.  So any speculation on this is moot.

I know that I am not the fastest in learning this, I don't need to be reminded.

Finally, I offered to explain what I did when the chaos of the class was over but he didn't want to hear it.  

[toomuchreality]

I wouldn't go to the meeting with the Dean and offer to redraw it. But I would go in prepared to, if that is what the Dean insists on.  Otherwise be prepared for nothing to change.

Hopefully you be able to explain all of this and get the outcome you're looking for, without redoing the work. I just think you need to be prepared, either way.  Not happy, either way. Just prepared for either outcome.

Good luck!

[Deleted]

May 3, 2016 20:37:05 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 3, 2016 20:13:18 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

You say it can't be done. But if you had the intention to cheat, somebody else could be using your login, your programto draw on your behalf unless the program records your face or fingerprint, which i highly doubt. I understand you did not cheat and you are offended because you consider cheating completrly unacceptable... But the teacher doesn't know you as well as you know yourself. You did the work but you couldn't even begin to explain so i can see why he thinks you may have cheated. Don't get me wrong but most of the time older people are not the greatest with learning new programs. Maybe his possible biase against an older student combined with your zero explanation made him conclude that you must have cheated.

I cannot prove I did not cheat.  You cannot prove a negative.  However, he can prove that I did cheat and he can't do that.  So any speculation on this is moot.

I know that I am not the fastest in learning this, I don't need to be reminded.

Finally, I offered to explain what I did when the chaos of the class was over but he didn't want to hear it.  

Actually he cannot necessarily prove you cheated either. The person supposedly helping you cheat could be someone outside of class making their work unique. You can't go back and prove you didn't cheat but you can prove you are capable of doing the work and that is really what you should concentrate on.

I didn't mean i think you are slow or anything. I was just talking about a general idea that the teacher probably has with older students.

[Deleted]

You keep saying this person is a lousy teacher.  That has ZERO to do with the cheating issue.Quit bringing it up because it makes you sound defensive.  

I would attempt to raise the question of reasonable doubt with the Dean.  Your suggestion that he CAN prove it is unreasonable.  That would take an enormous amount of time to compare 30 points to 30 points of however many people are in the class.  That also assumes that if you did copy (I know you didn't), that you copied a class member.  You could have copied someone who took the course last year.  

If I accuse a student of cheating, they are nailed to the wall.  I have printed out the original source and attached it to the paper.  But I am also incredibly ANGRY.  It takes so much time and energy to catch someone cheating.  But if you don't at least try, you send the message that it is ok . . . 

Good luck.  You aren't going to win this no matter what.  I'd be raising reasonable doubt and looking for a way to mitigate my losses here.  

I'm sorry you have to go through this.  Sometimes life is so unfair.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 21:31:29 GMT -5 @bamafan1954 said:

You keep saying this person is a lousy teacher.  That has ZERO to do with the cheating issue.Quit bringing it up because it makes you sound defensive.  

I would attempt to raise the question of reasonable doubt with the Dean.  Your suggestion that he CAN prove it is unreasonable.  That would take an enormous amount of time to compare 30 points to 30 points of however many people are in the class.  That also assumes that if you did copy (I know you didn't), that you copied a class member.  You could have copied someone who took the course last year.  

If I accuse a student of cheating, they are nailed to the wall.  I have printed out the original source and attached it to the paper.  But I am also incredibly ANGRY.  It takes so much time and energy to catch someone cheating.  But if you don't at least try, you send the message that it is ok . . . 

Good luck.  You aren't going to win this no matter what.  I'd be raising reasonable doubt and looking for a way to mitigate my losses here.  

I'm sorry you have to go through this.  Sometimes life is so unfair.

1.  The reason I have to put so much of an effort in this class is that he is not teaching it....period.  He lectures maybe 10 minutes of a 90 minute class.  This is relevant because so many of us are scrambling.

2.  My request is not unreasonable.  He has to open 30 files, leaving my file up on half the screen.  You can see almost immediately the order the figure is drawn in.  If it is close, one click will expand a particular feature and the numbered constraints will pop up.  It would take him less than 30 minutes and if he is going to make this claim, 30 minutes is not unreasonable.

3.  You have proof.  He has none and it is merely speculation.  He won't find proof unless he manufactures it and I have my original file with all the time stamps on it when I worked on it.  He would have to be pretty stupid to do this.  He has access to my directory on the school's network drives but I save everything to my jump drive. (This is mainly because accessing the servers from home is sketchy at best so the first year I started working only from my jump drive and back it up at home).

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

May 3, 2016 21:16:49 GMT -5 @bunnysmom said:

May 3, 2016 20:37:05 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I cannot prove I did not cheat.  You cannot prove a negative.  However, he can prove that I did cheat and he can't do that.  So any speculation on this is moot.

I know that I am not the fastest in learning this, I don't need to be reminded.

Finally, I offered to explain what I did when the chaos of the class was over but he didn't want to hear it.  

Actually he cannot necessarily prove you cheated either. The person supposedly helping you cheat could be someone outside of class making their work unique. You can't go back and prove you didn't cheat but you can prove you are capable of doing the work and that is really what you should concentrate on.

I didn't mean i think you are slow or anything. I was just talking about a general idea that the teacher probably has with older students.

New to program, first year.  In fact, I can't work from home because my 2015 version is not compatable with the school's 2012 version, you can't even open the file.  It sucks because I need to spend 8-10 hours/day on campus and I do not have weekend access.

Not many people know this software package, but it is increasingly being used by Boeing and their suppliers.  But this software comprises 1% of this particular software market.  The only reason it is being taught is due to Boeing being about 70 miles away.

[tloonya]

May 3, 2016 19:18:00 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

May 3, 2016 17:12:38 GMT -5 tloonya said:

I know someone who is teaching older students in University. She is the one who willing to work with older students when no one else would. I don't understand why does it make difference what age student is. NOW I am thinking maybe professors ARE having dislike of older students for...being mature and standing up for themselves IF things are happening.

So I am positive about you must resolve the issue. You have not cheated so you are deserve your A.

Don't let it slide. And good luck!

Thanks, Looney.  I seriously doubt that anything will get resolved with this.  The instructor cannot bring formal charges against me, as there is no way he can do so with the way things are set up.  He has no proof.  I think he doesn't realize that I understand very clearly how the tracking is done (because it is similar to another program that I work with by the same company) and now he realizes he can't intimidate me.  

He can't intimidate you but you still have nothing
For your hard work! It's not right.
I always say if I can't benefit from my fight for
One reason or another - at least they will
Know not to to do it for others!
Silence is crime! It lets bad guy win!
It lets them think they are invincible just
Because they have a title or status. No way!
Good luck with whatever you decide but u
You deserve a grade!!! And it's not 0!

[toomuchreality]

The Walk of the Penguin Mich

Seems to me like you have this / things pretty well figured out.

That's one thing (among many) this board is good for- coming up with just about every reason / argument for, or against a subject. So even if you disagree, it helps you prepare.


You'll do well.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

I get that he is a crappy teacher and you and your classmates are essentially teaching yourselves. Have you been vocal about that? Could he have heard you sharing your frustration and dissatisfaction with his teaching (or did someone rat you out to him) and he's getting even?