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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 2:15:10 GMT -5
I completely agree that our politicians on both side of the aisle have helped to create this mess and contributed to the growth and pace of the growth of extremism. Ultimately though I think it is our way of life that they despise and it would have happened eventually anyway. It's not new, just bigger. It is not just America they hate. They hate everyone unlike them and there are lots of us.
For the terrorists, I think you're right. I'm talking about the Europeans hating you. Ahh, probably so. I speed read before rushing off to work and miss stuff. I need to stop that.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 2:26:29 GMT -5
Which has nothing to do with the topic unless there was intention.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 3:12:15 GMT -5
21 years have gone by since another incident like this....are you seriously saying we are at the same risk from another home grown terrorist (and he was a terrorist) as we are from radical muslims? And for us here in the States, it has been almost 15 years since 9/11. We are in greater danger today from home-grown idiots/terrorists with firearms than we are from foreign terrorists. We have had more domestic mass shootings (and far more death deaths) since 9/11 (Newtown, Virginia Tech, movie theaters, political rallies/Gabby Gifford, etc.) than Islamic terrorist shootings/attacks (San Bernadino, Ca.). As a country, we got all crazy=ass nuts over the San Bernardino shootings but accept the Newtowns, the Virginia Techs, the movie theater shooting because gun ownership is a Second Amendment right and that that is the price we pay for freedom in our country. And to be clear, I have no desire to take away anyone's weapons and have accepted the deaths as the price we must pay for the freedom of owning firearms. Be patient. Those homegrowners will look like those toddlers before long.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 25, 2016 7:33:37 GMT -5
Which has nothing to do with the topic unless there was intention. Hm, I thought the idea is to save American lives. Honestly, if you're dead I don't think you really care if the other person intended to kill you or not. The result - dead American - is the same.
From a fairness standpoint it seems like we should be focusing on people with bad intentions, but from an effectiveness standpoint, not sure that's the best use of resources or that it makes sense.
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gregintenn
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Post by gregintenn on Mar 25, 2016 7:59:07 GMT -5
Tell you what. These folks believe you as an infidel are to either submit or die. Well, I'm an infidel, and I have no plans of submitting. Dying doesn't sound real appealing either. So, I've been giving this part of the Islamic jihad some thought. Most, if not all, faiths are centered around the belief that each is the one true religion. Certainly, Islam has this tenet, as does each of the many Christian sects, the Jewish faith, etc. And, most, if not all, true believers of any faith ascribe to the belief that martyrdom for their individual faith leads to an afterlife in heaven (with all its promised glories). With me so far? So, if an Islamic terrorist kills a non-Muslim because the non-Muslim is an infidel, and if that non-Muslim believes in a different faith that subscribes to martyrdom, hasn't the Islamic terrorist just written the non-Muslim an automatic ticket to heaven -- and whether or not the non-Muslim was leading a life which rendered him or her otherwise heaven-bound? Hasn't the terrorist just done the "infidel" the BIGGEST favor ever??!! I mean, get murdered by an Islamic terrorist, and if you believe in heaven and in martyrdom for your faith, SCORE!!!!!!!!!!!!! Better yet -- I can do whatever I want in THIS life as long as I believe that if, and when, I am martyred for my faith beliefs, I will go to heaven. Seven deadly sins, here I come................. Islamic terrorists clearly haven't thought this Jihad thing all the way through... So you believe Islamic terrorism is a good thing? Wow!
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Mar 25, 2016 8:05:52 GMT -5
I think there's some middle ground between welcoming everyone with a big hug hoping they won't blow you up and rounding up people and killing them all. I don't know what the answer is, but it's evident from this thread that nobody else does either. It's indicative of the problem world-wide. We all sure seem to know what isn't the answer, tho!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 25, 2016 8:12:53 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure my wonderbread neighborhood is less likely to harbor a muslim terrorist than a neighborhood full of muslims (I can pretty much assure you that a muslim in my neighborhood would stick out like a sore thumb ...and would be watched much more closely by the cops and the neighbors).
Why would you think that your neighborhood would be less likely to harbor a Muslim terrorist? One of our nicest, most exclusive gated neighborhoods in town "harbored" (meaning they owned a home there) a Saudi family that was tied to and supported first the 9/11 "pilots" and then later an Al Qaeda operative who was charged with a plot to bomb the subway in NY. This Saudi family and their extended family lived in this McMansion for six years, fleeing just before 9/11. They lived on the same street as my friend who is a circuit court judge. The neighborhood is predominantly white and houses usually sell for $600k - $1 million but there's one cheapie for sale at just below $500k right now. It's pretty wonderbread there. Guess the terrorist sympathizers didn't get the memo that they needed to live in the Muslim area.
What Im saying is they would be less able to hide. They would stick out. Unlike some areas, we aren't a "let's not get involved" type of people. A lot of us have no issues profiling because if Im looking for a terrorist Im not looking at the pasty white chick next door. Somewhere along the way, being PC became more important than national security. I have a huge problem with that.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 25, 2016 9:02:08 GMT -5
Which has nothing to do with the topic unless there was intention. Hm, I thought the idea is to save American lives. Honestly, if you're dead I don't think you really care if the other person intended to kill you or not. The result - dead American - is the same.
From a fairness standpoint it seems like we should be focusing on people with bad intentions, but from an effectiveness standpoint, not sure that's the best use of resources or that it makes sense.
To quote Cora Crawley: "Thank you! I was waiting for someone to work that out!"
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 25, 2016 9:04:16 GMT -5
Somewhere along the way, being PC became more important than national security. Hogwash.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 9:49:54 GMT -5
I think there's some middle ground between welcoming everyone with a big hug hoping they won't blow you up and rounding up people and killing them all. I don't know what the answer is, but it's evident from this thread that nobody else does either. It's indicative of the problem world-wide. We all sure seem to know what isn't the answer, tho! I think that's why it takes 18 months to 2 years to screen and approve refugees.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Mar 25, 2016 10:00:28 GMT -5
I think there's some middle ground between welcoming everyone with a big hug hoping they won't blow you up and rounding up people and killing them all. I don't know what the answer is, but it's evident from this thread that nobody else does either. It's indicative of the problem world-wide. We all sure seem to know what isn't the answer, tho! I think that's why it takes 18 months to 2 years to screen and approve refugees. ....assuming there are proper records, etc., to screen them with. I don't assume that because I know better.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2016 10:15:53 GMT -5
I posted a couple of pages back the requirements to get approved for refugee status. It takes an insanely long time and the paperwork trail is immense.
Sure it's possible mistakes are made or documents are forged but there are WAAAAAY easier ways to get terrorists into the states than to try to apply for refugee status.
We only accept so many per year (I didn't get deep enough to find out the exact number) so you'd have to hope that you were one of the lucky ones picked that year.
You have to stay wherever you are at currently until you get approved. You are not allowed to cross into the United States until you are approved.
The issue with Europe is that all the countries are interconnected and its easy to walk from one country to the next. If Germany doesn't accept you it's very easy to proceed to walk to France instead. It's a lot harder for them to control the massive influx of people and keep every intersection secure.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 25, 2016 10:18:06 GMT -5
I think there's some middle ground between welcoming everyone with a big hug hoping they won't blow you up and rounding up people and killing them all. I don't know what the answer is, but it's evident from this thread that nobody else does either. It's indicative of the problem world-wide. We all sure seem to know what isn't the answer, tho! I think that's why it takes 18 months to 2 years to screen and approve refugees. Suppose it takes a decade. That doesn't mean it's an effective screening process. We went through this ad nauseum in the refugees thread from last November (the thread in which a dozen posters insisted Syrian refugees would be effectively vetted, but not one could justify that position with anything besides some permutation of "I'm sure the government knows what it's doing"). In the Paris bombing thread, I dumped in the vaunted six-tier screening process that's supposedly going to keep everybody safe, trusting it wouldn't be lost on the readership that only one of the six tiers does any actual screening for terrorism--and that based on terrorists having real IDs and being known to the FBI or DHS. There is no reasonable basis on which to rest the claim that the "Syrian" refugees (many of which aren't Syrian) will be well vetted. One can claim that terrorists probably won't try to exploit this avenue to come to the US, or that the humanitarian rewards are worth the risks, but the "well-vetted Syrian" is a myth. All this reminds me: djAdvocate, how goes your pledge to adopt one of the Syrian refugees? What's the status of your campaign? What have you done since December?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2016 10:19:02 GMT -5
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 25, 2016 10:47:37 GMT -5
White terrorists kill more than muslim terrorists....if you don't count the 3,000 killed on 9/11. How is that an apples to apples comparison? basically let's start from 9/12 to make it look like white people kill more....
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2016 11:30:40 GMT -5
White terrorists kill more than muslim terrorists....if you don't count the 3,000 killed on 9/11. How is that an apples to apples comparison? basically let's start from 9/12 to make it look like white people kill more.... Since 9/11, we've done a pretty good job interrupting the terror network so they don't have the funding to pull off large scale attacks like 9/11. The signs were there, they were ignored.
Both muslim terrorists and the angry white dude scare me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 13:15:17 GMT -5
Which has nothing to do with the topic unless there was intention. Hm, I thought the idea is to save American lives. Honestly, if you're dead I don't think you really care if the other person intended to kill you or not. The result - dead American - is the same.
From a fairness standpoint it seems like we should be focusing on people with bad intentions, but from an effectiveness standpoint, not sure that's the best use of resources or that it makes sense.
Well I think the thoughts about saving American lives is a great topic but because the first post of this thread is about a terror attack in Brussels I am addressing that topic in particular. I don't think accidental deaths equate to this op at all and are typically used to derail the thread.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 25, 2016 13:28:34 GMT -5
Hm, I thought the idea is to save American lives. Honestly, if you're dead I don't think you really care if the other person intended to kill you or not. The result - dead American - is the same.
From a fairness standpoint it seems like we should be focusing on people with bad intentions, but from an effectiveness standpoint, not sure that's the best use of resources or that it makes sense.
Well I think the thoughts about saving American lives is a great topic but because the first post of this thread is about a terror attack in Brussels I am addressing that topic in particular. I don't think accidental deaths equate to this op at all and is typically used to derail the thread.
We can agree to disagree.
The OP simply states that suicide bombers - no religion mentioned - attacked Brussels. Then it goes on to ask for help from "all Gods" and nondenominational sources. OP then concludes with the statement "We are our own worst enemies, at times."
The responses to the OP were the ones that condemned Muslims and called for bans on Muslims, changes to immigration laws and outright targeting of all Muslims. In my opinion, those responses are the ones that derail the thread and are the types of response that "are our own worst enemies." So my points are to refute the people calling for steps - like discrimination based on the straw man that it's necessary to save American lives - that will actually make the terror problem worse.
Let's go ahead and call a spade a spade here - instead of focusing on how to address the issue, people are using the issue as an excuse to discriminate and practice racism. I'm calling that out and also pointing out that even if we did as they recommend, the discrimination and racism would result in greater problems. To the claims that discrimination and racism is necessary to save American lives, it's also important to point out if saving lives is the primary purpose, there are plenty of other issues we should be tackling first.
If the people who want to unleash the racists and discriminate keep setting up straw men, it's totally on point to destroy those straw men.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 13:41:35 GMT -5
I will agree to disagree. I think condemning all Muslims is as silly as equating car accidents to terror attacks.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 25, 2016 13:42:56 GMT -5
White terrorists kill more than muslim terrorists....if you don't count the 3,000 killed on 9/11. How is that an apples to apples comparison? basically let's start from 9/12 to make it look like white people kill more.... Since 9/11, we've done a pretty good job interrupting the terror network so they don't have the funding to pull off large scale attacks like 9/11. The signs were there, they were ignored.
Both muslim terrorists and the angry white dude scare me.
Fair enough...but the fact that the only thing stopping a large scale attack like 9/11 is intelligence proves that the white terrorists are not the ones wanting to absolutely destroy American and American lives. I know that isn't politically correct to say that but it's true And I also know that it is a very small percentage of Muslims that have these beliefs but that's enough to scare the shit out of me and enough for me yo want to do something
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 25, 2016 13:44:13 GMT -5
This is "the" thread about the Brussels attacks--the only one on YMAM, as far as I can tell. It's going to be a catch-all for discussion relating to the topic. Personally I prefer that over a scattering of more topic-restrictive threads.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2016 13:50:39 GMT -5
Since 9/11, we've done a pretty good job interrupting the terror network so they don't have the funding to pull off large scale attacks like 9/11. The signs were there, they were ignored.
Both muslim terrorists and the angry white dude scare me.
Fair enough...but the fact that the only thing stopping a large scale attack like 9/11 is intelligence proves that the white terrorists are not the ones wanting to absolutely destroy American and American lives. I know that isn't politically correct to say that but it's true And I also know that it is a very small percentage of Muslims that have these beliefs but that's enough to scare the shit out of me and enough for me yo want to do something I do agree that the terrorism network is a threat, and it's a threat in that it is somewhat coordinated, networked, and known. However, there is more of a chance that terror attacks can be thwarted based on tips, intelligence, and police work.
What I find scarier about the angry white dude shootings (Newton, etc.) is that they are lone wolves and very hard to stop. They don't have a network to infiltrate with a narc.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2016 13:52:48 GMT -5
So what exactly does a Muslim terrorist look like? They obviously aren't going to be driving white Chevys while wearing black chanting "Death to America!" if they are already here.
How do you tell someone from Pakistan from someone from India?
How do you tell someone from Saudi Arabia from someone from Turkey?
How do you tell someone from Iran from someone from Egypt?
I want to make sure I am targeting the right people. As a thought experiment I tried to figure out where each person who got on the elevator was from based solely on looking at them. I'm not talented enough to figure it out, so maybe those that say they'd know if a terrorist lived next door could help me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 25, 2016 14:05:38 GMT -5
So what exactly does a Muslim terrorist look like? They obviously aren't going to be driving white Chevys while wearing black chanting "Death to America!" if they are already here. How do you tell someone from Pakistan from someone from India? How do you tell someone from Saudi Arabia from someone from Turkey? How do you tell someone from Iran from someone from Egypt? I want to make sure I am targeting the right people. As a thought experiment I tried to figure out where each person who got on the elevator was from based solely on looking at them. I'm not talented enough to figure it out, so maybe those that say they'd know if a terrorist lived next door could help me. The generic yellow flags are: reclusive, unfriendly, having company at odd hours, non-assimilating (e.g. appearance, dress, speech, culture indistinguishable from that of their country of origin, without any meaningful effort to adapt or conform), unwilling to be seen in the company of non-Muslims. I agree it's not much to go on.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 25, 2016 14:16:49 GMT -5
So what exactly does a Muslim terrorist look like? They obviously aren't going to be driving white Chevys while wearing black chanting "Death to America!" if they are already here. How do you tell someone from Pakistan from someone from India? How do you tell someone from Saudi Arabia from someone from Turkey? How do you tell someone from Iran from someone from Egypt? I want to make sure I am targeting the right people. As a thought experiment I tried to figure out where each person who got on the elevator was from based solely on looking at them. I'm not talented enough to figure it out, so maybe those that say they'd know if a terrorist lived next door could help me. The generic yellow flags are: reclusive, unfriendly, having company at odd hours, non-assimilating (e.g. appearance, dress, speech, culture indistinguishable from that of their country of origin, without any meaningful effort to adapt or conform), unwilling to be seen in the company of [people other than their background]. Oh, you mean like my German great-grandma? Or my sister's grandmother-in-law who's New York Jewish? Or my sister's white and raised Jewish brother in law and wife who became fringe Evangelicals who created their own church in their basement, idolize people who bomb abortion clinics, preach to strangers in the grocery store and openly condemn their Jewish family at family reunions for not believing in Jesus Christ? Or the really, really rich WASPY people at my yacht club who only want to socialize there with other rich WASPS and prevent any minorities from joining?
Gotcha. I will start to keep a very close eye on these potential terrorists. I'm on the job.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2016 15:06:09 GMT -5
So what exactly does a Muslim terrorist look like? They obviously aren't going to be driving white Chevys while wearing black chanting "Death to America!" if they are already here. How do you tell someone from Pakistan from someone from India? How do you tell someone from Saudi Arabia from someone from Turkey? How do you tell someone from Iran from someone from Egypt? I want to make sure I am targeting the right people. As a thought experiment I tried to figure out where each person who got on the elevator was from based solely on looking at them. I'm not talented enough to figure it out, so maybe those that say they'd know if a terrorist lived next door could help me. The generic yellow flags are: reclusive, unfriendly, having company at odd hours, non-assimilating (e.g. appearance, dress, speech, culture indistinguishable from that of their country of origin, without any meaningful effort to adapt or conform), unwilling to be seen in the company of non-Muslims. I agree it's not much to go on. Reportedly the San Bernardino guy was very friendly. A few of the 9/11 bombers spent the night before the attacks at a strip club.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2016 15:07:35 GMT -5
The generic yellow flags are: reclusive, unfriendly, having company at odd hours, non-assimilating (e.g. appearance, dress, speech, culture indistinguishable from that of their country of origin, without any meaningful effort to adapt or conform), unwilling to be seen in the company of [people other than their background]. Oh, you mean like my German great-grandma? Or my sister's grandmother-in-law who's New York Jewish? Or my sister's white and raised Jewish brother in law and wife who are fringe Evangelicals who created their own church in their basement, idolize people who bomb abortion clinics, preach to strangers in the grocery store and openly condemn their Jewish family at family reunions for not believing in Jesus Christ? Or the really, really rich WASPY people at my yacht club who only want to socialize there with other rich WASPS and prevent any minorities from joining?
Gotcha. I will start to keep a very close eye on these potential terrorists. I'm on the job.
Im willing to take one for the team and hang at the yacht club to keep tabs on the terrorists.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2016 15:10:33 GMT -5
My Ronanian husband has been taken for Iranian before lol.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 25, 2016 15:25:00 GMT -5
Fair enough...but the fact that the only thing stopping a large scale attack like 9/11 is intelligence proves that the white terrorists are not the ones wanting to absolutely destroy American and American lives. I know that isn't politically correct to say that but it's true And I also know that it is a very small percentage of Muslims that have these beliefs but that's enough to scare the shit out of me and enough for me yo want to do something I do agree that the terrorism network is a threat, and it's a threat in that it is somewhat coordinated, networked, and known. However, there is more of a chance that terror attacks can be thwarted based on tips, intelligence, and police work.
What I find scarier about the angry white dude shootings (Newton, etc.) is that they are lone wolves and very hard to stop. They don't have a network to infiltrate with a narc.
With all of our intelligence preventing a lot of Muslim terrorists, the amount of people killed by Muslim attacks are almost dead on with those killed by white line wolf crazies. You said it yourself. There is no intelligence to stop the lone Wolfe crazies yet the numbers are almost dead in with the Muslim terrorists, which we spend a shit ton of money in intelligence to stop. That tells me that I don't really need to fear the white crazies.
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ken a.k.a OMK
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Post by ken a.k.a OMK on Mar 25, 2016 15:37:09 GMT -5
So what exactly does a Muslim terrorist look like? They obviously aren't going to be driving white Chevys while wearing black chanting "Death to America!" if they are already here. How do you tell someone from Pakistan from someone from India? How do you tell someone from Saudi Arabia from someone from Turkey? How do you tell someone from Iran from someone from Egypt? I want to make sure I am targeting the right people. As a thought experiment I tried to figure out where each person who got on the elevator was from based solely on looking at them. I'm not talented enough to figure it out, so maybe those that say they'd know if a terrorist lived next door could help me. BTW some people from those countries are Christian. Physically they will look just like a Muslim or a terrorist. I can't define how a terrorist looks until I see his/her gun/bomb/vest.
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