geenamercile
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:40:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,495
|
Post by geenamercile on Feb 15, 2019 19:21:02 GMT -5
MJ is this the job that was suppose to let you know Monday if you had it or not?
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 15, 2019 20:28:54 GMT -5
If you weren't out right lying or they said you were doing something illegal and fled before you got caught I would not think it would be an issue. If you asked three different people at the jobs I've held why I left you'd likely get three different answers and they wouldn't be one I gave. It's not like I sat around discussing with my co-workers why I was looking, you keep that information to yourself. I would not use that person as a reference again though if you can avoid it. Since nobody shares why you didn't get the job it's possible using this person as reference has been unintentionally sabotaging your efforts. I don't just give references out willy nilly - they have to ask for them first. There were two major reasons I left - I just gave one and not the other. He gave the other. But he did confirm other stuff I had told them. He said he'd never been interrogated the way he was by this HR rep today. He said the conversation lasted like 10 minutes! I do think that's a bit excessive, but I feel like some of the people there are a bit extra. so - how many red flags are we up to? What is your sense of what your boss would be like? I hope something that makes this circus seem like it'll pay off!
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 10,972
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 15, 2019 20:57:56 GMT -5
Geena, yes.
Rukh O'Rorke, yeah, I know. This isn't the ideal situation at all. The actual team and who would be my immediate boss seem super cool and like they would be great to work with. The boss's boss (the one asking about my personal life) is a little odd. I'm thinking the interrogation by HR is because the last person in the position I interviewed for burned them pretty badly by outright lying about everything. This position requires the ability to do V-Lookups and Pivot Tables in Excel and apparently she barely knew how to use a mouse. And supposedly she had an abysmal attendance rate in the few months she was there. I don't understand people with the gall to outright lie about their abilities. Embellish a little, sure - but totally lie? You'll be found out immediately so what's the point?
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 15, 2019 21:03:50 GMT -5
Good luck!!
I hope this comes through for you!
|
|
Sharon
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 19, 2010 22:48:11 GMT -5
Posts: 11,182
|
Post by Sharon on Feb 16, 2019 0:05:17 GMT -5
If you weren't out right lying or they said you were doing something illegal and fled before you got caught I would not think it would be an issue. If you asked three different people at the jobs I've held why I left you'd likely get three different answers and they wouldn't be one I gave. It's not like I sat around discussing with my co-workers why I was looking, you keep that information to yourself. I would not use that person as a reference again though if you can avoid it. Since nobody shares why you didn't get the job it's possible using this person as reference has been unintentionally sabotaging your efforts. I don't just give references out willy nilly - they have to ask for them first. There were two major reasons I left - I just gave one and not the other. He gave the other. But he did confirm other stuff I had told them. He said he'd never been interrogated the way he was by this HR rep today. He said the conversation lasted like 10 minutes! I do think that's a bit excessive, but I feel like some of the people there are a bit extra. Both times that I have given oral references for someone I spoke with the HR person for at least 15 minutes and in one instance it was probably closer to 20 minutes. The one time that I had to do an online reference it took almost a half hour of my time to answer all the questions and a lot of the questions where tick a box type of questions. I was amazed at how many questions there were.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 8:38:23 GMT -5
I don't just give references out willy nilly - they have to ask for them first. There were two major reasons I left - I just gave one and not the other. He gave the other. But he did confirm other stuff I had told them. He said he'd never been interrogated the way he was by this HR rep today. He said the conversation lasted like 10 minutes! I do think that's a bit excessive, but I feel like some of the people there are a bit extra. Both times that I have given oral references for someone I spoke with the HR person for at least 15 minutes and in one instance it was probably closer to 20 minutes. The one time that I had to do an online reference it took almost a half hour of my time to answer all the questions and a lot of the questions where tick a box type of questions. I was amazed at how many questions there were. That's downright disrespectful of your time.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 12:10:44 GMT -5
so, I've been living on the other side of the coin the past few weeks as we have been recruiting for 2 positions in my group.
It's been eye opening. I've been involved in the hiring process at the past few positions, but this is my first time as the hiring manager (but part of a panel, not going to hire anyone my boss is not 100% on board with - cuz - I only there 4 months and would not want to push against her recommendation and have my choice be a fail!). We have had a number of internal candidates who you 1 - you know them, 2 - they aren't going to get the job, and 3 - they are trying super hard and you feel like crap. Also, recruiting for two different positions at the same time has been intense. I've certainly conducted more interviews in the past three weeks than I had hitherto. And for positions dissimilar to my own - current and past.
The other thing is the dearth of quality people to choose from. I was thinking I wish I could transfer some of this knowledge to my younger self just to be more confident in interview situation.
It may be that I am getting so far down my personal rabbit hole of niche, but even for these lower level, professional/administrative mix type positions there was no one (no one!) who had it all, not even close. Men felt very confident applying and interviewing with what they had, and women not so much. Our interview panel (3) tended to weigh male applicants as better potential fits due to confidence and presentation, and I have somewhat successfully fought/devil advocated against that.
The other thing I noticed in this is that the male applicants generally felt quite confident applying for a promotion from their former position (internal and external applicants) whereas female applicants seemed more comfortable with a lateral move. And then the males get bonus points for taking that initiative.
To be clear, I had known and seen some of this previous, but with this rather intense recruiting effort over the past month, it really came into focus. So - I do want to encourage all our job seekers who have been in a particular role for about 3 years to very confidently apply to jobs that are a little of a reach, add in a few stretch positions that you can make a good case for your interest and ability to get up to speed quickly, interview with confidence, clearly state what challenges you expect, what you need to learn and how excited you are to take on those new tasks and in the interviews showcase your experience and confidence in being successful in the role.
I wouldn't put a % of meeting requirements on this either. I've heard things like if you meet 80% of what they are looking for then apply. Apply for anything that you really super want, if requested - write an outstanding cover letter for it, address what skills you have and how that would translate to what they specified and what you a excited to learn about. Let the recruiters decide if you are a potential. Of course if that is too time consuming for a long shot don't do it. But if is something you really want and can make a case for it - don't hang back. Others are pushing it out there - and so can you!
|
|
Pants
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 19:26:44 GMT -5
Posts: 7,579
|
Post by Pants on Feb 16, 2019 12:58:41 GMT -5
Both times that I have given oral references for someone I spoke with the HR person for at least 15 minutes and in one instance it was probably closer to 20 minutes. The one time that I had to do an online reference it took almost a half hour of my time to answer all the questions and a lot of the questions where tick a box type of questions. I was amazed at how many questions there were. That's downright disrespectful of your time. What? Why? I’ve checked references myself for my last couple of hires because what HR wants to ask (verifying dates of employment, etc.) is not what I want to ask (How does this person work in teams? How do they handle stress? Was there any bad blood with them leaving?) I can’t have that conversation in five minutes.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 13:19:00 GMT -5
That's downright disrespectful of your time. What? Why? I’ve checked references myself for my last couple of hires because what HR wants to ask (verifying dates of employment, etc.) is not what I want to ask (How does this person work in teams? How do they handle stress? Was there any bad blood with them leaving?) I can’t have that conversation in five minutes. Because they're asking someone with no stake in the outcome to take 1/2 hour clicking buttons on a form. The prospective employer isn't even using up their own time on that. How is that not disrespectful to the person giving the reference? They might actually be busy with their own jobs.
|
|
swasat
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2011 9:34:28 GMT -5
Posts: 3,735
|
Post by swasat on Feb 16, 2019 13:34:36 GMT -5
What? Why? I’ve checked references myself for my last couple of hires because what HR wants to ask (verifying dates of employment, etc.) is not what I want to ask (How does this person work in teams? How do they handle stress? Was there any bad blood with them leaving?) I can’t have that conversation in five minutes. Because they're asking someone with no stake in the outcome to take 1/2 hour clicking buttons on a form. The prospective employer isn't even using up their own time on that. How is that not disrespectful to the person giving the reference? They might actually be busy with their own jobs. Its not disrespectful because the person agreed to to be reference! Its a known fact that being a reference for someone is not a 2 min thing, its requires 15-30 min of time. Just like an interview is expected to be a time consuming thing with no guarantee of positive outcome at the end. Its a networking thing, you extend a favor to someone by being their reference and they may do the same for you in the future. Its a part of being a professional and working in a professional world.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 13:41:42 GMT -5
Because they're asking someone with no stake in the outcome to take 1/2 hour clicking buttons on a form. The prospective employer isn't even using up their own time on that. How is that not disrespectful to the person giving the reference? They might actually be busy with their own jobs. Its not disrespectful because the person agreed to to be reference! Its a known fact that being a reference for someone is not a 2 min thing, its requires 15-30 min of time. Just like an interview is expected to be a time consuming thing with no guarantee of positive outcome at the end. Its a networking thing, you extend a favor to someone by being their reference and they may do the same for you in the future. Its a part of being a professional and working in a professional world. Maybe if it fulfills your own agenda, you don't see it. 15 minutes on the phone with someone is one thing. 30 minutes you can't even bother yourself with is quite another. No wonder why so many places will only confirm dates of employment.
|
|
swasat
Senior Member
Joined: Apr 13, 2011 9:34:28 GMT -5
Posts: 3,735
|
Post by swasat on Feb 16, 2019 13:58:00 GMT -5
Its not disrespectful because the person agreed to to be reference! Its a known fact that being a reference for someone is not a 2 min thing, its requires 15-30 min of time. Just like an interview is expected to be a time consuming thing with no guarantee of positive outcome at the end. Its a networking thing, you extend a favor to someone by being their reference and they may do the same for you in the future. Its a part of being a professional and working in a professional world. Maybe if it fulfills your own agenda, you don't see it. 15 minutes on the phone with someone is one thing. 30 minutes you can't even bother yourself with is quite another. No wonder why so many places will only confirm dates of employment. I have been a reference to people even way before I became a hiring manager myself. I fail to see whats "my own agenda" in something thats a norm in the professional world. You may believe what you believe. But its an accepted norm and networking tends to be huge in getting a job, maintaining a job, progressing in your career and in general being successful professionally.
|
|
geenamercile
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:40:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,495
|
Post by geenamercile on Feb 16, 2019 14:22:34 GMT -5
I agree with not finding it disrespectful in the time aspect. I also agree with not having to check every box to apply. I know if I apply at another school there is going to be an email recommendation form that those I put will have to fill out, and some may even get calls. For those I agree to references I expect to spend about 15 to 30 mins doing so if asked.
MJ- Just my thought but if you were suppose to know Monday and find out they are just not checking your references and you were 1 of 2 my theories are that, 1) they offered it first to the other candidate and got turned down. 2) that means unless something sent flags up with your references you should get a job offer. If you don't I would maybe check with your references a little deeper about what was asked and what they said and if you still want to use them.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 15:14:31 GMT -5
Its not disrespectful because the person agreed to to be reference! Its a known fact that being a reference for someone is not a 2 min thing, its requires 15-30 min of time. Just like an interview is expected to be a time consuming thing with no guarantee of positive outcome at the end. Its a networking thing, you extend a favor to someone by being their reference and they may do the same for you in the future. Its a part of being a professional and working in a professional world. Maybe if it fulfills your own agenda, you don't see it. 15 minutes on the phone with someone is one thing. 30 minutes you can't even bother yourself with is quite another. No wonder why so many places will only confirm dates of employment. I don't think you understand what a reference relationship is. It is a favor to the applicant, not the company.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 15:42:50 GMT -5
Maybe if it fulfills your own agenda, you don't see it. 15 minutes on the phone with someone is one thing. 30 minutes you can't even bother yourself with is quite another. No wonder why so many places will only confirm dates of employment. I don't think you understand what a reference relationship is. It is a favor to the applicant, not the company. It's both, actually. And a 30 minute commitment makes me even more reluctant to ask. No wonder my old supervisor didn't want to do it while he was on vacation! Who would?
|
|
Pants
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 27, 2010 19:26:44 GMT -5
Posts: 7,579
|
Post by Pants on Feb 16, 2019 16:05:16 GMT -5
What? Why? I’ve checked references myself for my last couple of hires because what HR wants to ask (verifying dates of employment, etc.) is not what I want to ask (How does this person work in teams? How do they handle stress? Was there any bad blood with them leaving?) I can’t have that conversation in five minutes. Because they're asking someone with no stake in the outcome to take 1/2 hour clicking buttons on a form. The prospective employer isn't even using up their own time on that. How is that not disrespectful to the person giving the reference? They might actually be busy with their own jobs. Oh gosh, I somehow missed the part about the online form. Sorry, I agree about that part!!
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 16:44:46 GMT -5
I don't think you understand what a reference relationship is. It is a favor to the applicant, not the company. It's both, actually. And a 30 minute commitment makes me even more reluctant to ask. No wonder my old supervisor didn't want to do it while he was on vacation! Who would? how so? I don't really see that. and some may even perfer an online form rather than over the phone. Of course if the online form is too much or not developed well it could be a pain. And I would likely avoid doing so over vacation, it would depend on the applicant. If it was someone I had a closer, mentor role with I would probably do it if I could manage. In that case, online would be preferred as I wouldn't need to schedule it.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 16:56:26 GMT -5
It's both, actually. And a 30 minute commitment makes me even more reluctant to ask. No wonder my old supervisor didn't want to do it while he was on vacation! Who would? how so? I don't really see that. and some may even perfer an online form rather than over the phone. Of course if the online form is too much or not developed well it could be a pain. And I would likely avoid doing so over vacation, it would depend on the applicant. If it was someone I had a closer, mentor role with I would probably do it if I could manage. In that case, online would be preferred as I wouldn't need to schedule it. As a potential employer, do you find them helpful? If not, why do you require them? If so, then they are doing you a favor.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 17:46:37 GMT -5
how so? I don't really see that. and some may even perfer an online form rather than over the phone. Of course if the online form is too much or not developed well it could be a pain. And I would likely avoid doing so over vacation, it would depend on the applicant. If it was someone I had a closer, mentor role with I would probably do it if I could manage. In that case, online would be preferred as I wouldn't need to schedule it. As a potential employer, do you find them helpful? If not, why do you require them? If so, then they are doing you a favor. a favor to me would mean that I contact someone I know where a candidate has worked to get info. Not a candidate-provided reference - which may frequently provided slanted and favorable information on someone who turns out to be not a good hire. Not a favor, and you take what they say with a grain of salt as they are picked by someone and has supposedly pre-agreed to say only good things about them. Unless someone is dumb and doesn't clear them beforehand.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 10,972
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 16, 2019 17:54:09 GMT -5
I agree with not finding it disrespectful in the time aspect. I also agree with not having to check every box to apply. I know if I apply at another school there is going to be an email recommendation form that those I put will have to fill out, and some may even get calls. For those I agree to references I expect to spend about 15 to 30 mins doing so if asked. MJ- Just my thought but if you were suppose to know Monday and find out they are just not checking your references and you were 1 of 2 my theories are that, 1) they offered it first to the other candidate and got turned down. 2) that means unless something sent flags up with your references you should get a job offer. If you don't I would maybe check with your references a little deeper about what was asked and what they said and if you still want to use them. I 100% think this was the case, but I guess it doesn't really matter now.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 19, 2024 3:58:52 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2019 18:03:34 GMT -5
Geena, yes.
Rukh O'Rorke, yeah, I know. This isn't the ideal situation at all. The actual team and who would be my immediate boss seem super cool and like they would be great to work with. The boss's boss (the one asking about my personal life) is a little odd. I'm thinking the interrogation by HR is because the last person in the position I interviewed for burned them pretty badly by outright lying about everything. This position requires the ability to do V-Lookups and Pivot Tables in Excel and apparently she barely knew how to use a mouse. And supposedly she had an abysmal attendance rate in the few months she was there. I don't understand people with the gall to outright lie about their abilities. Embellish a little, sure - but totally lie? You'll be found out immediately so what's the point? Yikes, I would question the competence of the hiring manager and interviewers for not verifying this persons excel skills. I can almost always weed out the systems/computer skills liars in a phone screen.
|
|
Lizard Queen
Senior Associate
103/2024
Joined: Jan 17, 2011 22:19:13 GMT -5
Posts: 14,659
|
Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 16, 2019 18:16:05 GMT -5
As a potential employer, do you find them helpful? If not, why do you require them? If so, then they are doing you a favor. a favor to me would mean that I contact someone I know where a candidate has worked to get info. Not a candidate-provided reference - which may frequently provided slanted and favorable information on someone who turns out to be not a good hire. Not a favor, and you take what they say with a grain of salt as they are picked by someone and has supposedly pre-agreed to say only good things about them. Unless someone is dumb and doesn't clear them beforehand. Again, if its not very useful to you, why even waste everyone's time? Are you looking for the best person, or the one who has the friends with the best abilities at lying?
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 10,972
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 16, 2019 18:22:08 GMT -5
I mean a former colleague posed as someone else's (an associate I used to manage) boss for a reference for a new job. And the associate ended up getting that job. So...
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 18:43:54 GMT -5
I agree with not finding it disrespectful in the time aspect. I also agree with not having to check every box to apply. I know if I apply at another school there is going to be an email recommendation form that those I put will have to fill out, and some may even get calls. For those I agree to references I expect to spend about 15 to 30 mins doing so if asked. MJ- Just my thought but if you were suppose to know Monday and find out they are just not checking your references and you were 1 of 2 my theories are that, 1) they offered it first to the other candidate and got turned down. 2) that means unless something sent flags up with your references you should get a job offer. If you don't I would maybe check with your references a little deeper about what was asked and what they said and if you still want to use them. I 100% think this was the case, but I guess it doesn't really matter now. Why doesn't it matter?
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 18:52:49 GMT -5
I mean a former colleague posed as someone else's (an associate I used to manage) boss for a reference for a new job. And the associate ended up getting that job. So... I know people who have done this too. In this case they actually got caught. Guy asked my coworker to pretend to be his direct supervisor rather than coworker and she did. I think he was dumb enough to let others at work know about it. Someone took it upstairs and he ended up losing both jobs, company gave my friend a talking to about this but she was very well liked, hard worker, and she wasn't terminated. Company called the one looking for the reference to let them know that Jane was not Roger's supervisor but coworker and offer was rescinded.
|
|
geenamercile
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 17, 2010 16:40:28 GMT -5
Posts: 2,495
|
Post by geenamercile on Feb 16, 2019 18:57:42 GMT -5
MJ- I think it matters because you seem to keep getting up to the point of almost there and then something seems to be pushing the other candidate above you. At this point I would start wondering what is it. I don't think it is your resume because you are getting interviews and calls in, I don't think it is your interviewing skills because you keep getting second interviews. So while it might not matter on this job, as you have already given your answer, and reference give theirs, it may matter for the next if you don't get this one. I will still keep my fingers crossed for you.
|
|
MJ2.0
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 24, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -5
Posts: 10,972
|
Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 16, 2019 19:16:07 GMT -5
I'm saying it doesn't really matter because they will either extend an offer or they won't, and I'll never know exactly why I did or did not get a job. There could be a multitude of reasons behind that decision - from my technical expertise, the way I carry myself, how well they see me meshing with the group/workplace culture, to less above-board reasons dealing with my looks, ethnicity, gender, and marital/family status. I've only ever gotten interview feedback from one company. At the time I thought they were pretty high and mighty to think I'd care about their opinion, but it was actually very helpful.
|
|
Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,087
|
Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 16, 2019 19:30:15 GMT -5
Oh ok!
I thought you were resigned to not getting an offer or turning it down.
|
|
chiver78
Administrator
Current Events Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:04:45 GMT -5
Posts: 38,649
|
Post by chiver78 on Feb 16, 2019 19:37:32 GMT -5
The other thing I noticed in this is that the male applicants generally felt quite confident applying for a promotion from their former position (internal and external applicants) whereas female applicants seemed more comfortable with a lateral move. And then the males get bonus points for taking that initiative. To be clear, I had known and seen some of this previous, but with this rather intense recruiting effort over the past month, it really came into focus. So - I do want to encourage all our job seekers who have been in a particular role for about 3 years to very confidently apply to jobs that are a little of a reach, add in a few stretch positions that you can make a good case for your interest and ability to get up to speed quickly, interview with confidence, clearly state what challenges you expect, what you need to learn and how excited you are to take on those new tasks and in the interviews showcase your experience and confidence in being successful in the role. this has actually been studied past anecdotal stories. men will (generally) apply for most jobs they think they could do, where women (generally) won't apply unless they tick off every requirement in the posting. I'm guilty of that, and I'm sure most of the female posters I was commiserating with as I searched could say the same. this is another symptom of the Impostor Syndrome that DQ talked about, that I absolutely know I am poster child for.
|
|
TheOtherMe
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 14:40:52 GMT -5
Posts: 27,281
Mini-Profile Name Color: e619e6
|
Post by TheOtherMe on Feb 16, 2019 19:44:56 GMT -5
I was guilty of Imposter Syndrome for my entire working life and I am retired now.
I don't think I ever thought I was good enough to get the job and I was certain they would figure that out.
I'm guessing I wouldn't be a retiree from the federal government if I was that bad. All except for a summer were with the same agency and I kept getting promotions and I was training new hires.
|
|