The end of 'open carry' or should be

[fishy999]

www.denverpost.com/news/ci_29064963/open-carry-becomes-focus-after-colorado-springs-shooting

So the latest shooter- was open carrying a rifle, the police were called- and did nothing- as some asshat walking around with a rifle is perfectly OK unless they are black


"Minutes before 33-year-old Noah Harpham began a shooting rampage Saturday in Colorado Springs that would leave four dead, his neighbor spotted the tall, lanky man standing outside with a rifle.

Naomi Bettis said she called 911 to report Harpham, but a dispatcher explained that Colorado has an open carry law that allows public handling of firearms. Bettis was perturbed by the call taker's response, which she feels could have prevented catastrophe."

So the point here is that in the NRA universe all people walking down the road with rifles in their hands are the 'good guys'.

So I leave it up to the greater gun geniuses- how are we to determine the 'good guys'?  I know my answer- when I see an asshat open carrying a riflle  in my hood  with a rifle it will be a 911 call over brandishing.  If the police fuck up and shoot the idiot- one less idiot   Doesn't take much for them to shoot dogs that threaten them with licking so some roaming idiot  is for sure worth less than a dog.

[Deleted]

It's easy to determine "good guys"... they are the ones that DON'T point guns at unarmed people.

[Deleted]

If you are going to stop people for what they MIGHT do, based on nothing more than products they have/possess... you could arrest every adult that has a car and owns alcohol, for drunk driving... even though you don't know that they EVER drive drunk.

I carry a 4.5 inch hardened steel Gerber knife on me at all times (one never knows when a box may need to be opened, something pried open, or whatever... so it's nice to be ready to do so)... I guess I should be arrested for stabbing people (even though I've never done that and have no intention of doing so...).

[ken a.k.a OMK]

The only place a person should be carrying a rifle is in the woods. PERIOD.

[Artemis Windsong]

DH said he saw a man walking down the street with a rifle slung over his shoulder and a shotgun in his hands.

All I could think was how many people called the police.

[Artemis Windsong]

Nov 3, 2015 22:13:42 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

The only place a person should be carrying a rifle is in the woods. PERIOD.

Comma, shooting range.

[buystoys]

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

[ken a.k.a OMK]

Nov 3, 2015 22:16:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

Of course not. The rest of my comments aren't about you.

Use some common sense on this. Who carries a rifle in town or into a fast food place? Just the show off NRA paranoid members. No need to show off you own a gun. Don't push the limits. It only supports gun control. If you aren't smart enough to own a gun and not show it off, then maybe you shouldn't own a gun.

[chiver78]

Nov 3, 2015 22:07:20 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's easy to determine "good guys"... they are the ones that DON'T point guns at unarmed people.

an armed "good citizen" is going to have his gun out and judge everyone who passes.

sent from my electronic distraction

[mroped]

Nov 3, 2015 22:16:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

If I were living on a 450 acres with wild hogs and rattle snakes maybe,and I mean MAYBE I'll carry a weapon. It is not necessary. But I understand doing it since you are on private property.
Walking on the road with a rifle cradled...that's asking for trouble of the kind that involves bullets and bracelets.

[buystoys]

Nov 3, 2015 22:25:37 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:16:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

Of course not. The rest of my comments aren't about you.

Use some common sense on this. Who carries a rifle in town or into a fast food place? Just the show off NRA paranoid members. No need to show off you own a gun. Don't push the limits. It only supports gun control. If you aren't smart enough to own a gun and not show it off, then maybe you shouldn't own a gun.

Well, if we stop in town to fuel up before heading out to my cousin's house, then yes.  Anyone can see we have a gun.  It's going to be sitting out in the open on the back seat of my car or hubby's pickup.  We're not going to hide the fact that we are traveling with a gun.  That just makes the cops paranoid! 

My point is that showing a gun really kind of depends on where you live, doesn't it?  I live in a rural community where gun ownership is a way of life.  Too many people have to deal with wild hogs, snakes, 'cats, and other nasty critters on a regular basis.  I don't think open carry is the issue.  Mental stability and intention is, isn't it?

[buystoys]

Nov 3, 2015 22:35:20 GMT -5 mroped said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:16:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

If I were living on a 450 acres with wild hogs and rattle snakes maybe,and I mean MAYBE I'll carry a weapon. It is not necessary. But I understand doing it since you are on private property.
Walking on the road with a rifle cradled...that's asking for trouble of the kind that involves bullets and bracelets.

It would be interesting to see how you'd handle the wild momma hog and her eight babies without weaponry.  I'd be happy to invite you out if you'd like the experience! 

Of course, since the hogs and snakes don't understand boundaries, if we're waiting for my cousin to  give us the current access code to his property and are on public roadside, those hogs and snakes will leave us alone?   

Open carry isn't the issue.  Mental stability of gun owners is.

[grumpyhermit]

Nov 3, 2015 22:43:51 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:25:37 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Of course not. The rest of my comments aren't about you.

Use some common sense on this. Who carries a rifle in town or into a fast food place? Just the show off NRA paranoid members. No need to show off you own a gun. Don't push the limits. It only supports gun control. If you aren't smart enough to own a gun and not show it off, then maybe you shouldn't own a gun.

Well, if we stop in town to fuel up before heading out to my cousin's house, then yes.  Anyone can see we have a gun.  It's going to be sitting out in the open on the back seat of my car or hubby's pickup.  We're not going to hide the fact that we are traveling with a gun.  That just makes the cops paranoid! 

My point is that showing a gun really kind of depends on where you live, doesn't it?  I live in a rural community where gun ownership is a way of life.  Too many people have to deal with wild hogs, snakes, 'cats, and other nasty critters on a regular basis.  I don't think open carry is the issue.  Mental stability and intention is, isn't it?

Except when a guy, walking down the street with a gun is dismissed by the cops because of open carry laws.

I come from a rural area too, and seeing people driving around with guns in plain view on gun racks was totally normal. What wouldn't be normal would be them walking around the middle of town with the same gun. However, with current laws - that's apparently a'okay, even when most rational people realize that walking around with a gun in plain view all the time isn't exactly standard behavior.

[ken a.k.a OMK]

I agree with you. Open carry isn't the issue. It's some of the people who want to carry their semi-automatic rifle into Walmart or McDonald's instead of leaving them in the truck. 

[buystoys]

Nov 3, 2015 22:49:34 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:43:51 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Well, if we stop in town to fuel up before heading out to my cousin's house, then yes.  Anyone can see we have a gun.  It's going to be sitting out in the open on the back seat of my car or hubby's pickup.  We're not going to hide the fact that we are traveling with a gun.  That just makes the cops paranoid! 

My point is that showing a gun really kind of depends on where you live, doesn't it?  I live in a rural community where gun ownership is a way of life.  Too many people have to deal with wild hogs, snakes, 'cats, and other nasty critters on a regular basis.  I don't think open carry is the issue.  Mental stability and intention is, isn't it?

Except when a guy, walking down the street with a gun is dismissed by the cops because of open carry laws.

I come from a rural area too, and seeing people driving around with guns in plain view on gun racks was totally normal. What wouldn't be normal would be them walking around the middle of town with the same gun. However, with current laws - that's apparently a'okay, even when most rational people realize that walking around with a gun in plain view all the time isn't exactly standard behavior.

Again, doesn't that question go more towards the mental stability of the gun owner?  We're not going to hide the fact that we have guns or hid them if we are traveling with them.  That, in my mind, does lead to the question of WHY.  We have no intentions of harming others unless we are physically threatened.  (And we have unlocked the gun safe recently due to an armed escaped convict within ten miles of our home.  Once the police scanner told us he was in custody, the gun safe was locked again.)  People can walk around with knives and no one seems to think that's harmful.  A knife was what killed my good friend and almost killed me.  I'm not as worried about someone walking around with a gun as that's so much harder to hide than a knife.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 3, 2015 22:07:20 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's easy to determine "good guys"... they are the ones that DON'T point guns at unarmed people.

Until they do?

[grumpyhermit]

Nov 3, 2015 23:03:58 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:49:34 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

Except when a guy, walking down the street with a gun is dismissed by the cops because of open carry laws.

I come from a rural area too, and seeing people driving around with guns in plain view on gun racks was totally normal. What wouldn't be normal would be them walking around the middle of town with the same gun. However, with current laws - that's apparently a'okay, even when most rational people realize that walking around with a gun in plain view all the time isn't exactly standard behavior.

Again, doesn't that question go more towards the mental stability of the gun owner?  We're not going to hide the fact that we have guns or hid them if we are traveling with them.  That, in my mind, does lead to the question of WHY.  We have no intentions of harming others unless we are physically threatened.  (And we have unlocked the gun safe recently due to an armed escaped convict within ten miles of our home.  Once the police scanner told us he was in custody, the gun safe was locked again.)  People can walk around with knives and no one seems to think that's harmful.  A knife was what killed my good friend and almost killed me.  I'm not as worried about someone walking around with a gun as that's so much harder to hide than a knife.

Sure it does, but the fact is that its legal in open carry states. So the cops ignore someone that probably isn't all there mentally, all while he totes a deadly weapon, because its legal. You can't police someone's mental state, but you amend open carry laws so that when a dude is walking down the street with a gun out, the cops will actually pay attention and respond to the call.

[buystoys]

Nov 3, 2015 23:27:55 GMT -5 grumpyhermit said:

Nov 3, 2015 23:03:58 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Again, doesn't that question go more towards the mental stability of the gun owner?  We're not going to hide the fact that we have guns or hid them if we are traveling with them.  That, in my mind, does lead to the question of WHY.  We have no intentions of harming others unless we are physically threatened.  (And we have unlocked the gun safe recently due to an armed escaped convict within ten miles of our home.  Once the police scanner told us he was in custody, the gun safe was locked again.)  People can walk around with knives and no one seems to think that's harmful.  A knife was what killed my good friend and almost killed me.  I'm not as worried about someone walking around with a gun as that's so much harder to hide than a knife.

Sure it does, but the fact is that its legal in open carry states. So the cops ignore someone that probably isn't all there mentally, all while he totes a deadly weapon, because its legal. You can't police someone's mental state, but you amend open carry laws so that when a dude is walking down the street with a gun out, the cops will actually pay attention and respond to the call.

So are we once again in a situation where the exception drives policy?

[Deleted]

Nov 3, 2015 23:15:41 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:07:20 GMT -5 @richardintn said:

It's easy to determine "good guys"... they are the ones that DON'T point guns at unarmed people.

Until they do?

It's the same criteria for people with access to cars and alcohol... or adults with access to kids (you know... all those perverts that haven't had sex with 4 years olds... but they have kids... so better safe than sorry Arrest them because they have kids and they MIGHT)

[mroped]

I just said that carrying a gun on private property is not an issue since is on a private property. I said that I wouldn't do it or not necessarily.
Geting between a momma hog and her piglets is a mater of choice or bad luck but trust me, a rifle would do very little if that were to happen. Snakes too. Don't tell me that you can shoot a snake with a rifle! A shotgun yes but not a rifle.
Im walking on the mountain in the summer covering maybe a couple thousand acres with nothing but a knife. And there are bears, mountain lions, rattle snakes and some other creatures that could produce some bodily harm under certain circumstances but they fear us just as much as we fear them. The trick is let them be and they won't mind you!

nonetheles, talking about guns in public- NOT for the mentally unstable! And the police should come when called. And maybe open carry is not the right thing yet? Or maybe most of us are not mentally ready for it since we act like idiots and walk around with weapons looking to settle old scores or create new trouble.

[happyhoix]

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 4, 2015 9:01:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

The guy with penis in hand walking down the street probably shoots blanks. Harmless.

[grumpyhermit]

Nov 4, 2015 9:01:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

Which just means that people in open carry states need to learn what lingo will get someone to respond. "There is a suspicious individual walking around the neighborhood." End it there and make no mention of the gun.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Nov 3, 2015 22:25:37 GMT -5 ken a.k.a OMK said:

Nov 3, 2015 22:16:21 GMT -5 buystoys said:

Ummmm......  I admit that we might carry a pistol or rifle when we go to my cousin's house.  Of course, he lives on 450 acres that has rattlesnakes and wild hogs on it.    DH has an open carry permit.  Guess you would like to arrest us for that?

Of course not. The rest of my comments aren't about you.

Use some common sense on this. Who carries a rifle in town or into a fast food place? Just the show off NRA paranoid members. No need to show off you own a gun. Don't push the limits. It only supports gun control. If you aren't smart enough to own a gun and not show it off, then maybe you shouldn't own a gun.

If you have no place to lock it up?  Our guns get locked in the trunk, but if you are driving an open jeep and you need to leave the vehicle, it is safer to bring your firearm with you.  If your firearm happens to be a long gun, you don't have a lot of choices as to how you carry it, other than open.

[fishy999]

Nov 4, 2015 9:01:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

That is what bothered me- she had to call 911 a second time to tell them the guy she reported earlier was shooting people.  Anyone walking down the street with a rifle is a threat IMO.  Exceptions of course for rural areas, streets around a gun show, etc.  Dispatchers blew this one and people probably died because of it.  And of course the underlying blame goes to the politicians and NRA who thought this was a good idea.  There is just no good reason to carry a rifle around town- and 'because I can' is an even worse one. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

As a Constitutionalist that recognizes "the right of the people to keep and bear arms" and cannot imagine a crazy interpretation like "right of the people" actually means the right of the government (in the "bill of rights" no less) to create a militia when the Constitution already lists raising an army in the enumerated powers found in Article I, Section 8, I don't think the government has any say in how, where, and when any citizen of the United States may carry a firearm.  That being said, as far as the practical arguments go- and again, acknowledging pragmatism has no place in the discussion of rights- I am undecided on open carry.  I like the "free ridership" aspects of concealed carry-- that is, when you're open carrying, you necessarily advertise who does-- and does not-- have a weapon. Seems better that people should have to guess.

[Deleted]

Nov 4, 2015 20:43:50 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Nov 4, 2015 9:01:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

That is what bothered me- she had to call 911 a second time to tell them the guy she reported earlier was shooting people.  Anyone walking down the street with a rifle is a threat IMO.  Exceptions of course for rural areas, streets around a gun show, etc.  Dispatchers blew this one and people probably died because of it.  And of course the underlying blame goes to the politicians and NRA who thought this was a good idea.  There is just no good reason to carry a rifle around town- and 'because I can' is an even worse one. 

Then your definition of "threat" is the problem.

What if a guy is walking to a friend's house (assume they both live in the city)... several blocks... to sell (legally) his rifle (maybe he got a new one and doesn't want or think he needs two) to his friend, hus rifle slung (by the sling) over his shoulder? He's not doing anything but walking... he just is in possession of a rifle while he walks. Is he a threat?

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Nov 4, 2015 20:43:50 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

Nov 4, 2015 9:01:21 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

There is a difference between carrying a gun in it's holster strapped to your waist vs brandishing a weapon, which was apparently what this guy was doing when the neighbor called police the first time, and the dispatcher refused to send anyone to check on it, because the dispatcher believed brandishing a weapon is legal (probably isn't - most states consider 'brandishing a weapon' a form of assault.)

So, the dispatcher refused to send someone until after the shooting started.

I wonder if the dispatcher would have responded differently if the neighbor said "there's a big black guy waving a gun around in the street" or "there's a man walking down the street with his penis in his hand, waving it at people." That might have gotten the cops there faster.

That is what bothered me- she had to call 911 a second time to tell them the guy she reported earlier was shooting people.  Anyone walking down the street with a rifle is a threat IMO.  Exceptions of course for rural areas, streets around a gun show, etc.  Dispatchers blew this one and people probably died because of it.  And of course the underlying blame goes to the politicians and NRA who thought this was a good idea.  There is just no good reason to carry a rifle around town- and 'because I can' is an even worse one.

Would "anyone" include the police?  Why would your fellow citizen be threat, but an armed agent of the government would not be?  

"If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. So it’s not that you are anti-gun. You’ll need the police’s guns to take away other people’s guns. So you’re very Pro-Gun, you just believe that only the Government (which is, of course, so reliable, honest, moral and virtuous…) should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small, political elite and their minions." - Stefan Molyneux

[happyhoix]

Nov 4, 2015 21:54:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Nov 4, 2015 20:43:50 GMT -5 fishy999 said:

That is what bothered me- she had to call 911 a second time to tell them the guy she reported earlier was shooting people.  Anyone walking down the street with a rifle is a threat IMO.  Exceptions of course for rural areas, streets around a gun show, etc.  Dispatchers blew this one and people probably died because of it.  And of course the underlying blame goes to the politicians and NRA who thought this was a good idea.  There is just no good reason to carry a rifle around town- and 'because I can' is an even worse one.

Would "anyone" include the police?  Why would your fellow citizen be threat, but an armed agent of the government would not be?  

"If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. So it’s not that you are anti-gun. You’ll need the police’s guns to take away other people’s guns. So you’re very Pro-Gun, you just believe that only the Government (which is, of course, so reliable, honest, moral and virtuous…) should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small, political elite and their minions." - Stefan Molyneux

I lived in a European country where not even the police routinely carried guns. I only remember seeing one gun there in 11 years, it was after a big bank robbery and they had armed gendarmes on the main streets leaving town looking for the suspected getaway car. The rest of the time, the gendarmes walked around without weapons.

Oh I also do remember seeing some hunters with hunting rifles a few times.

Somehow they managed to be a very tidy, polite and civil society without everyone being armed all the time.

Won't work here, though. We're special. We need to protect ourselves all the time, from everyone else, and especially from the government.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Nov 5, 2015 11:11:47 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Nov 4, 2015 21:54:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Would "anyone" include the police?  Why would your fellow citizen be threat, but an armed agent of the government would not be?  

"If you are for gun control, then you are not against guns, because the guns will be needed to disarm people. So it’s not that you are anti-gun. You’ll need the police’s guns to take away other people’s guns. So you’re very Pro-Gun, you just believe that only the Government (which is, of course, so reliable, honest, moral and virtuous…) should be allowed to have guns. There is no such thing as gun control. There is only centralizing gun ownership in the hands of a small, political elite and their minions." - Stefan Molyneux

I lived in a European country where not even the police routinely carried guns. I only remember seeing one gun there in 11 years, it was after a big bank robbery and they had armed gendarmes on the main streets leaving town looking for the suspected getaway car. The rest of the time, the gendarmes walked around without weapons.

Oh I also do remember seeing some hunters with hunting rifles a few times.

Somehow they managed to be a very tidy, polite and civil society without everyone being armed all the time.

Won't work here, though. We're special. We need to protect ourselves all the time, from everyone else, and especially from the government.

Yeah- I keep hearing these lovely Utopian outposts exist, and I cannot help but wonder why people see the need to change the United States when they could just move to one of these totally gun-free, peaceful countries?  

With No Second Amendment Protections, Europeans Desperate to Arm Themselves Amid Islamist Invasion ... ooops.