Illinois District Violated Transgender Student’s Rights, U.S

[Deleted]

CHICAGO — Federal education authorities, staking out their firmest position yet on an increasingly contentious issue, found Monday that an Illinois school district violated anti-discrimination laws when it did not allow a transgender student who identifies as a girl and participates on a girls’ sports team to change and shower in the girls’ locker room without restrictions.

In a letter sent Monday, the Office for Civil Rights of the Department of Education told the Palatine district that requiring a transgender student to use private changing and showering facilities was a violation of that student’s rights under Title IX, a federal law that bans sex discrimination. The student, who identifies as female but was born male, should be given unfettered access to girls’ facilities, the letter said.

Officials in the Palatine district, which serves more than 12,000 students, have framed their position as a middle ground. The transgender student in question plays on a girls’ sports team, is called “she” by school staff and is referred to by a female name. But the district, citing privacy concerns, had required her to change clothes and shower separately.

www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/us/illinois-district-violated-transgender-students-rights-us-says.html?smid=pl-share&_r=0

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Wow...all I can say is this is a completely ridiculous ruling, and since when did Title IX start including gender identity over biology when determining gender discrimination issues?  Something that few people seem to be addressing on this issue is also that a biological male who identifies as female does still have male genitals.  So if people don't think men should expose themselves to women without permission, how is this any different?

Once a person has the surgery, then they can use whatever facility matches their body parts...but until the surgery, that person's perception does not trump the reality of the situation.  

[billisonboard]

I understand that it can be difficult on the individuals involved but we need to slow down a little on what is being thrown at people as far as acceptance of those who fall outside the mainstream of most people's existence.  I would hate to see a backlash against progress that is being made.

[mroped]

Did anybody(meaning the judges!) ask the girls that use the showers and changing rooms how would they feel abut it?
Maybe those judges should go and take a human anatomy class so they would have the understanding of what's going on. Based on their decision they failed it in school so maybe is time for a refresher.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Nov 3, 2015 14:43:07 GMT -5 mroped said:

Did anybody(meaning the judges!) ask the girls that use the showers and changing rooms how would they feel abut it?
Maybe those judges should go and take a human anatomy class so they would have the understanding of what's going on. Based on their decision they failed it in school so maybe is time for a refresher.

I'm waiting for somebody to try an equate people not wanting to use the same restrooms and showers as somebody with a different skin color to not wanting to use the same bathroom and shower with somebody that has different genitalia.

[billisonboard]

Hey this is like someone not wanting to use the same restrooms and shower with a person who has a different skin color.

(didn't want you to have to wait too long. )

[Virgil Showlion]

WHAT?

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2015 15:31:28 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

WHAT?

Really!

[zibazinski]

Well, good luck with that. I'm not forcing my daughter or myself to change and shower in front of a male no matter what he thinks he is. Looks like PE gets flunked. This is what happens when you take something that seems to be a good thing and go nuts. I hope the kid is satisfied as well as his parents.

[MJ2.0]

I feel like I was born in the wrong decade sometimes.

[Phoenix84]

So much for a common sense compromise. Allowing this individual private changing facilities was more than fair.

I guess the needs of the many don't outweigh the needs of the few

[Phoenix84]

Nov 3, 2015 18:12:23 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I feel like I was born in the wrong decade sometimes.

How so? What would have been a more appropriate time period?

[MJ2.0]

I don't know - one where girls changed in the girls room, boys changed in the boys room, parents were parents instead of buddies, and cops were people who resolved conflict.

[Phoenix84]

Nov 3, 2015 18:18:02 GMT -5 MJ2.0 said:

I don't know - one where girls changed in the girls room, boys changed in the boys room, parents were parents instead of buddies, and cops were people who resolved conflict.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

I try to be open minded these things. If a dude wants to get plastic surgery on his own dime to feel better about himself, that's fine by me. It's this attitude that everyone has to accept and accommodate at any cost that pisses me off.

[MJ2.0]

My thought is this: get the surgery, then we'll talk. Until then change in some unisex or "other" area.

[Green Eyed Lady]

My daughter, if I had one, has the right to choose what male sees her naked. And that's what this boy is until he isn't anymore - a male. Anything else is pure horseshit.  We've leaned over so far to accommodate "unique", we've fallen flat.  This is not comparable to skin color.  I'm absolutely fine with a woman of a different race in my locker room.  I'm not fine with a man in it.  If the parents in this school were smart, they'd pull their children immediately.  Money talks.  As soon as that school is about to go broke, they will change their tune.

Why do I have the feeling that this is going to open the door for lots more boys who decide they want to be girls just so they can go into the girls' locker room. And don't say it won't happen - because it will. There is absolutely no doubt of that whatsoever.  People better start standing up for themselves and they better start doing it right now.

[mroped]

Maybe schools should have a "in limbo" section for people that are nor here or there?!

[mroped]

If you pull your kids out of a public school for a reason as the one discussed here, the school district won't go broke because you'll still pay school taxes. 
We homeschool but still pay school taxes. My kids have no contact whatsoever with the school.
Aat least that's how it is in Pa!

[Green Eyed Lady]

They pretty much have. They provided private showering and changing facilities. That wasn't good enough. He has to see the girls all nekkid or he's just not happy and is discriminated against and humiliated and all that crap.  What about the girls who are humiliated? They don't count cause they are just girls.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Nov 3, 2015 19:06:27 GMT -5 mroped said:

If you pull your kids out of a public school for a reason as the one discussed here, the school district won't go broke because you'll still pay school taxes. 
We homeschool but still pay school taxes. My kids have no contact whatsoever with the school.
Aat least that's how it is in Pa!

You could be right. I don't know much about schools, but I was under the impression the school gets X amount of federal dollars for each enrolled student. They lose those federal dollars when they lose students. Perhaps I'm not understanding correctly.

[busymom]

I agree that as long as "she" has male equipment, there should be a separate showering area.  There is no way I would have, as a student in school, taken a shower with a strange guy looking at me. 

Sadly, we're dealing with the same types of legal fights in my home state right now.  Maybe the next generation is going to do a lot more home schooling. 

[MJ2.0]

Nov 3, 2015 18:14:33 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

So much for a common sense compromise. Allowing this individual private changing facilities was more than fair.

I guess the needs of the many don't outweigh the needs of the few

Yea, you can see from the story of the girl student being manhandled by the cop that everyone thinks their personal comfort and desires should override that of everyone else. Also we're scared of being reported to child services of we don't bend to the will of every child.

[Deleted]

As long as there are segregated (by gender) restrooms or locker rooms, they need to be done by a no-nonsense, easily verifiable criteria. I'm fine with something I saw on-line somewhere (paraphrased) "If you have a penis, you use the 'People with Penises' room... if you have a vagina, you use the 'People with Vaginas' room".

Either that or we need to grow up as a society and realize that EVERYONE knows (or eventually will know) what the other gender has (generally speaking... they may not know sizes, dimensions or colors... but boys know what girls have and girls know what boys have). And understanding that, we need to socially advance to "unisex" facilities... where everyone uses the same room.

We could even keep the idea of "privacy stalls" that we have now in the gender segregated restrooms... I mean really... a person next to you pooping is a person next to you pooping. Men and women don't poop differently. And peeing is still just peeing... even if some stand to do it.

[billisonboard]

Nov 3, 2015 19:06:27 GMT -5 mroped said:

If you pull your kids out of a public school for a reason as the one discussed here, the school district won't go broke because you'll still pay school taxes. 
We homeschool but still pay school taxes. My kids have no contact whatsoever with the school.
Aat least that's how it is in Pa!

You don't pay school taxes to pay for your child's schooling. We all pay school taxes to educate our community children.

[Opti]

Nov 3, 2015 19:00:11 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

My daughter, if I had one, has the right to choose what male sees her naked. And that's what this boy is until he isn't anymore - a male. Anything else is pure horseshit.  We've leaned over so far to accommodate "unique", we've fallen flat.  This is not comparable to skin color.  I'm absolutely fine with a woman of a different race in my locker room.  I'm not fine with a man in it.  If the parents in this school were smart, they'd pull their children immediately.  Money talks.  As soon as that school is about to go broke, they will change their tune.

Why do I have the feeling that this is going to open the door for lots more boys who decide they want to be girls just so they can go into the girls' locker room. And don't say it won't happen - because it will. There is absolutely no doubt of that whatsoever.  People better start standing up for themselves and they better start doing it right now.

GEL, its the school/school district that is fighting the federal DOE on this. It is the feds and possibly a court case with the local ACLU that is driving this. The school prefers their former stance. Because of the feds, they are attempting to compromise with a privacy curtain.

I think the feds are pushing too fast.

From the link -

Daniel Cates, the district superintendent, said in a statement Monday that he disagreed with the decision, which he described as “a serious overreach with precedent-setting implications.” In an interview, Dr. Cates said district officials had “worked long and hard” to develop a plan that the district believed would balance the rights of everyone involved. That plan entails having the student change beyond privacy curtains in the girls’ locker room.

Before reading this article, I did not know the federal Dept of Ed had been pushing this issue.

[Green Eyed Lady]

You are right, Opti. I didn't read closely because I was seeing red. Thank you for the correction. I read "education authorities" and kind of went off on a tangent.

[Politically_Incorrect12]

Nov 3, 2015 19:00:11 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

My daughter, if I had one, has the right to choose what male sees her naked. And that's what this boy is until he isn't anymore - a male. Anything else is pure horseshit.  We've leaned over so far to accommodate "unique", we've fallen flat.  This is not comparable to skin color. 

Totally agree, but that seems to be where the argument goes by those who think this isn't an issue.


I'm absolutely fine with a woman of a different race in my locker room.  I'm not fine with a man in it.  If the parents in this school were smart, they'd pull their children immediately.  Money talks.  As soon as that school is about to go broke, they will change their tune.

I think it's the school fighting against this, and the DOE pushing it. 

Why do I have the feeling that this is going to open the door for lots more boys who decide they want to be girls just so they can go into the girls' locker room. And don't say it won't happen - because it will. There is absolutely no doubt of that whatsoever.  People better start standing up for themselves and they better start doing it right now.

I can't say I've known a lot of transgender people, but the ones I've known where all men and all still were attracted to women.  It's odd that we don't have men and women in the same showers because of modesty and what might happen, but some people don't see the same possibility with men, who identify as women but are still attracted to women while also having a penis.    Even if everybody knows what everybody else has, there is a reason we don't force seeing what everybody else has on children (or even adults without consent).  I'm surprised they even let a man (even one that identifies as female) play on a women's sports team because of the competitive advantage it could offer.  I said it in another post, but people can try to be too "open-minded" to the extent that they lose common sense.

I'm going to say something else and flame away...but this is one of the only instances I know of where society tries to go to this type of extreme to accommodate a person's perception of reality (or a person's wish of what they would like their reality to be), even when it is so different from actual reality. It's also one of the only situations I know of where people get offended when somebody calls it a psychological disorder...when any other time a person's perception of their body and the actual reality is so different, we definitely don't go to this type of extreme to accommodate that view.  If a person wants to get a sex change...it's their body...but until that happens, common sense needs to taken into consideration.

[chiver78]

I skimmed this thread, I'm in my.phone. but the first question I need to ask is this - what were the circumstances that allowed this child to be eligible for the girls sports team? why do those requirements differ from whatever gets you tye locker room of your choosing?

sent from my electronic distraction

[buystoys]

Was channel surfing and just saw Dr. Cates interviewed.  It sounds like the school has gone above and beyond to attempt to support this student who has not yet completed gender reassignment, but is in the midst of hormonal and psychiatric support for a future dated procedure.  There is a separate shower and changing room attached to the regular girls' locker room.  Friends of the transgender student are allowed to share the separate facilities, but the transgendered student feels that she is being discriminated against because she cannot use the regular locker room.  The school has allowed her to participate in female athletics as part of their attempt to support her personal identity regardless of her physical status.

The interview stated that many girls (and their parents) were not comfortable with the concept of no separation due to the differences in genitalia at this time.  The school does not want to be seen as discriminating against the transgender's rights, but they also feel compelled to protect the rights of the other students.  From what I gleaned, the student appealed to the ACLU herself to file the discrimination suit on her behalf.  I don't know that her parents are involved in this particular situation at all. 

(Hope I stated all of that in a somewhat PC manner as that is NOT my forte!)

[Tennesseer]

Nov 3, 2015 21:42:05 GMT -5 Politically_Incorrect12 said:

Nov 3, 2015 19:00:11 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

My daughter, if I had one, has the right to choose what male sees her naked. And that's what this boy is until he isn't anymore - a male. Anything else is pure horseshit.  We've leaned over so far to accommodate "unique", we've fallen flat.  This is not comparable to skin color. 

Totally agree, but that seems to be where the argument goes by those who think this isn't an issue.


I'm absolutely fine with a woman of a different race in my locker room.  I'm not fine with a man in it.  If the parents in this school were smart, they'd pull their children immediately.  Money talks.  As soon as that school is about to go broke, they will change their tune.

I think it's the school fighting against this, and the DOE pushing it. 

Why do I have the feeling that this is going to open the door for lots more boys who decide they want to be girls just so they can go into the girls' locker room. And don't say it won't happen - because it will. There is absolutely no doubt of that whatsoever.  People better start standing up for themselves and they better start doing it right now.

I can't say I've known a lot of transgender people, but the ones I've known where all men and all still were attracted to women.  It's odd that we don't have men and women in the same showers because of modesty and what might happen, but some people don't see the same possibility with men, who identify as women but are still attracted to women while also having a penis.    Even if everybody knows what everybody else has, there is a reason we don't force seeing what everybody else has on children (or even adults without consent).  I'm surprised they even let a man (even one that identifies as female) play on a women's sports team because of the competitive advantage it could offer.  I said it in another post, but people can try to be too "open-minded" to the extent that they lose common sense.

I'm going to say something else and flame away...but this is one of the only instances I know of where society tries to go to this type of extreme to accommodate a person's perception of reality (or a person's wish of what they would like their reality to be), even when it is so different from actual reality. It's also one of the only situations I know of where people get offended when somebody calls it a psychological disorder...when any other time a person's perception of their body and the actual reality is so different, we definitely don't go to this type of extreme to accommodate that view.  If a person wants to get a sex change...it's their body...but until that happens, common sense needs to taken into consideration.

Are the transgender people you know formerly women who are now openly living as men (at work for example) or are they men who like to (most times) privately dress up in women's clothing but are still attracted/have sexual relations with women? If it is the later, then that would be someone who is a cross-dresser versus a transgender.