Saudi Arabia-still living in the middle ages

[Value Buy]

A seventeen year old is to beheaded.
Happens to be a relative of a critic of the country.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/saudi-execution-set-for-juvenile-offender-sparks-human-rights-uproar/ar-AAfdbYr?li=AAa0dzB

[thyme4change]

ours are reportedly the highest in the world, many for drug offenses

Is this an apples-to-apples comparison?  Do other countries put pot smokers in jail for months or years?  Are our incarceration rate high because we actually have more crime, or just because we punish more or punish harsher?

I always think about the movies about India where parentless children are robbing every tourist they can find.  They never seem to go to jail in any of these movies.  (And yes - I know movies aren't real - but they are representing something.)  Do other countries just let things go?

[thyme4change]

Oct 8, 2015 8:17:44 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Yeah, Saudi is hardly a paragon of progressive virtue for human rights.

I am more concerned with our status though. We are routinely grouped with the Saudis, Iran and China for our use of the death penalty and our high rates of incarceration. (ours are reportedly the highest in the world, many for drug offenses)

We can't do anything about the Saudis, but how can we clean up our own house?

According to the interwebz - China executed thousands of people and we executed 35 people last year.   

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

A lot of other countries execute you if you are caught with drugs in their country. I remember the in flight warning when we landed in Malaysia.   If you were caught with drugs on you they would arrest you and execute you.

Flying into the United States with drugs?   Arrested and several months/years in jail depending on the offense.

Yeah. . I'll take incarceration any day of the week.

[billisonboard]

At least we aren't in the middle ages

Roper v. Simmons, 543 U.S. 551 (2005), was a landmark decision in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that it is unconstitutional to impose capital punishment for crimes committed while under the age of 18. The 5-4 decision overruled the Court's prior ruling upholding such sentences on offenders above or at the age of 16, in Stanford v. Kentucky, 492 U.S. 361 (1989), overturning statutes in 25 states that had the penalty set lower. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_v._Simmons

By a 5-4 margin ten years ago.

[djAdvocate]

yeah, it is wrong for kids to be tried as adults.

so, when will we stop doing it?

[The Captain]

Maybe when they stop committing crimes that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they have no place in society, just like adults do?

I'll defer to a lawyer but I believe the prosecutor has discretion in choosing to try a person as a child or as an adult.  In every case I've seen where they's been tried as an adult it's been pretty clear the individual knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and choose to do it anyway.

Evil exists regardless of the age.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 8, 2015 12:51:13 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Maybe when they stop committing crimes that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they have no place in society, just like adults do?

I'll defer to a lawyer but I believe the prosecutor has discretion in choosing to try a person as a child or as an adult.  In every case I've seen where they's been tried as an adult it's been pretty clear the individual knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and choose to do it anyway.

Evil exists regardless of the age.

cool.  then we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to criticize Saudi Arabia for their "barbarity". 

[The Captain]

Oct 8, 2015 13:26:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Oct 8, 2015 12:51:13 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Maybe when they stop committing crimes that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they have no place in society, just like adults do?

I'll defer to a lawyer but I believe the prosecutor has discretion in choosing to try a person as a child or as an adult.  In every case I've seen where they's been tried as an adult it's been pretty clear the individual knew what they were doing, knew it was wrong, and choose to do it anyway.

Evil exists regardless of the age.

cool.  then we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to criticize Saudi Arabia for their "barbarity". 

Umm, you will note that I wasn't the one criticizing them.

However if you want to put freedom of speech on the same level of evil as murder or rape then I guess that's your right?  Personally, I see a bit of a difference between them.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 8, 2015 13:32:21 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Oct 8, 2015 13:26:14 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

cool.  then we have NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to criticize Saudi Arabia for their "barbarity". 

Umm, you will note that I wasn't the one criticizing them.

However if you want to put freedom of speech on the same level of evil as murder or rape then I guess that's your right?  Personally, I see a bit of a difference between them.

first of all, i didn't say "YOU".  i said "WE", as in THE COLLECTIVE WE.

second of all, he was tortured and tried for crimes that he confessed.  sound familiar?

again, if we want to focus our outrage on something, Bagram might be a better choice.

[Ombud]

I think there's a difference between
www.yahoo.com/news/california-teen-killed-feel-death-sentenced-life-211034872.html and sentencing another 17 yo to death, placing his headless body on display for speaking out against the gov't

[djAdvocate]

Oct 8, 2015 13:44:10 GMT -5 Ombud said:

I think there's a difference between
www.yahoo.com/news/california-teen-killed-feel-death-sentenced-life-211034872.html and sentencing another 17 yo to death, placing his headless body on display for speaking out against the gov't

there is also a difference between interrogating and torturing over 100 people to death:

www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/07/01/when-torture-kills-ten-murders-in-us-prisons-in-afghanistan/

again, i am stoked to see this outpouring of concern about Arabs being put to death for no reason.  rad.
let's focus on our own crimes, shall we?

[Deleted]

The Saudi's get their ideas on punishment from their religion.  If you want to criticize Saudi Arabia, a big part of the problem is Islam. 

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 9:10:19 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The Saudi's get their ideas on punishment from their religion.  If you want to criticize Saudi Arabia, a big part of the problem is Islam. 

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

[Ombud]

Oct 9, 2015 9:33:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:10:19 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The Saudi's get their ideas on punishment from their religion.  If you want to criticize Saudi Arabia, a big part of the problem is Islam. 

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

However we have evolved. We no longer cut off the 'offending' hand: uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-employer-chops-off-074411263.html

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2015 9:33:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:10:19 GMT -5 @hickle said:

The Saudi's get their ideas on punishment from their religion.  If you want to criticize Saudi Arabia, a big part of the problem is Islam. 

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

I think you know that there is a big problem in America with far too many people wanting to enforce their Christian ideas through legal means.  I think for the most part though, the love of the death penalty in America is based on ugliness and sanctimony, not any deeply thought out religious belief. 

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 9:37:41 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:33:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

However we have evolved

We still have the death penalty in some states, no?

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 9:38:23 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:33:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

I think you know that there is a big problem in America with far too many people wanting to enforce their Christian ideas through legal means.  I think for the most part though, the love of the death penalty in America is based on ugliness and sanctimony, not any deeply thought out religious belief. 

I don't know about that. I have read comments here that child rapists and killers should be raped and then killed too. I have read people injured by criminals should be injured in the same manner too as punishment.

I will state here that I am not going to go through 2,184,815 posts (to date) on the various boards and threads here to back up the above claim. The posts are out there.

[Ombud]

uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-employer-chops-off-074411263.html

www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=55967

www.newsweek.com/worlds-most-barbaric-punishments-74537

www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2451306-17-year-old-saudi-teenager-sentenced-14.html

Ali Mohammed al-Nimr to be beheaded, crucified in Saudi Arabia

"Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shariah or Shari'a) law is cast from the actions and words of Muhammad, which are called "Sunnah," and the Quran, which he authored.

The Sharia law itself cannot be altered, but the interpretation of the Sharia law, called "figh," by imams is given some leeway.

As a legal system, the Sharia law covers a very wide range of topics. While other legal codes deal primarily with public behavior, Sharia law covers public behavior, private behavior and private beliefs. Of all legal systems in the world today, Islam's Sharia law is the most intrusive and strict, especially against women.

According to the Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
• The list goes on."



Read more: www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2451306-17-year-old-saudi-teenager-sentenced-14.html#ixzz3o5B7dTCq

Here if you don't like it, you can work to change it

[djAdvocate]

Oct 9, 2015 9:37:41 GMT -5 Ombud said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:33:54 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Does our death penalty and the execution of same come from the Bible's 'Eye for an eye'? Some of our biggest supporters of the death penalty on this board are professed Christians.

Eye For An Eye

However we have evolved. We no longer cut off the 'offending' hand: uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-employer-chops-off-074411263.html

no.  instead, we inject people with poison and watch them writhe in agony for 45 mins before they have a heart attack.

if this is evolution, i'll take the guillotine. 

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 9:52:09 GMT -5 Ombud said:

uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-employer-chops-off-074411263.html

www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=55967

www.newsweek.com/worlds-most-barbaric-punishments-74537

www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2451306-17-year-old-saudi-teenager-sentenced-14.html

Ali Mohammed al-Nimr to be beheaded, crucified in Saudi Arabia

"Sharia law is the law of Islam. The Sharia (also spelled Shariah or Shari'a) law is cast from the actions and words of Muhammad, which are called "Sunnah," and the Quran, which he authored.

The Sharia law itself cannot be altered, but the interpretation of the Sharia law, called "figh," by imams is given some leeway.

As a legal system, the Sharia law covers a very wide range of topics. While other legal codes deal primarily with public behavior, Sharia law covers public behavior, private behavior and private beliefs. Of all legal systems in the world today, Islam's Sharia law is the most intrusive and strict, especially against women.

According to the Sharia law:

• Theft is punishable by amputation of the right hand (above).
• Criticizing or denying any part of the Quran is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Muhammad is a prophet is punishable by death.
• Criticizing or denying Allah, the moon god of Islam is punishable by death.
• A Muslim who becomes a non-Muslim is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim who leads a Muslim away from Islam is punishable by death.
• A non-Muslim man who marries a Muslim woman is punishable by death.
• A man can marry an infant girl and consummate the marriage when she is 9 years old.
• Girls' clitoris should be cut (per Muhammad's words in Book 41, Kitab Al-Adab, Hadith 5251).
• A woman can have 1 husband, but a man can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.
• A man can unilaterally divorce his wife but a woman needs her husband's consent to divorce.
• A man can beat his wife for insubordination.
• Testimonies of four male witnesses are required to prove rape against a woman.
• A woman who has been raped cannot testify in court against her rapist(s).
• A woman's testimony in court, allowed only in property cases, carries half the weight of a man's.
• A female heir inherits half of what a male heir inherits.
• A woman cannot drive a car, as it leads to fitnah (upheaval).
• A woman cannot speak alone to a man who is not her husband or relative.
• Meat to be eaten must come from animals that have been sacrificed to Allah - i.e., be Halal.
• Muslims should engage in Taqiyya and lie to non-Muslims to advance Islam.
• The list goes on."



Read more: www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2451306-17-year-old-saudi-teenager-sentenced-14.html#ixzz3o5B7dTCq

Here if you don't like it, you can work to change it

I cautiously agree with the death penalty. But I do believe it is sometimes used in the remaining death penalty states too often (Texas comes to mind).

As for the rest of your post, yes Christian majority/western nations no longer chop off hands and other sundry acts of revenge. But they used to up to a few hundred years ago. As Islam came into being about 600 years after the beginning of Christianity, it will probably take Muslims a while to catch up with the rest of the world.

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2015 9:52:09 GMT -5 Ombud said:

uk.news.yahoo.com/saudi-arabia-employer-chops-off-074411263.html

www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=55967

www.newsweek.com/worlds-most-barbaric-punishments-74537

www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/2451306-17-year-old-saudi-teenager-sentenced-14.html
Here if you don't like it, you can work to change it

I cautiously agree with the death penalty. But I do believe it is sometimes used in the remaining death penalty states too often (Texas comes to mind).

As for the rest of your post, yes Christian majority/western nations no longer chop off hands and other sundry acts of revenge. But they used to up to a few hundred years ago. As Islam came into being about 600 years after the beginning of Christianity, it will probably take Muslims a while to catch up with the rest of the world.

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I cautiously agree with the death penalty. But I do believe it is sometimes used in the remaining death penalty states too often (Texas comes to mind).

As for the rest of your post, yes Christian majority/western nations no longer chop off hands and other sundry acts of revenge. But they used to up to a few hundred years ago. As Islam came into being about 600 years after the beginning of Christianity, it will probably take Muslims a while to catch up with the rest of the world.

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

The known world had to be good with Christian barbarity for what-13 14 centuries?

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2015 10:10:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5 @hickle said:

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

The known world had to be good with Christian barbarity for what-13 14 centuries?

What is your point?  Christianity did some terrible things so it is only right that we allow Islam to ?  Is that your view?

I don't think we should go over there and stop them, but I do think we should say that they are a barbaric society. Saying Islam is a big part of that is just recognizing the truth.

[Tennesseer]

Oct 9, 2015 10:14:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:10:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The known world had to be good with Christian barbarity for what-13 14 centuries?

What is your point?  Christianity did some terrible things so it is only right that we allow Islam to ?  Is that your view?

I don't think we should go over there and stop them, but I do think we should say that they are a barbaric society. Saying Islam is a big part of that is just recognizing the truth.

No, we should not go over there and yes, we are saying they need to stop this form of punishment and some people do say they are a barbaric society.

I am saying Christianity is a guilty of barbarity in its past as some Muslim countries are today. Neither of the two religious societies have clean hands. The world cannot drag a country's laws into the present if the country is nor willing to do so.

Tactful diplomacy works better than dropping nuclear bombs on Mecca and Medina (as at least one poster would like to see).

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2015 10:23:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:14:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

What is your point?  Christianity did some terrible things so it is only right that we allow Islam to ?  Is that your view?

I don't think we should go over there and stop them, but I do think we should say that they are a barbaric society. Saying Islam is a big part of that is just recognizing the truth.

No, we should not go over there and yes, we are saying they need to stop this form of punishment and some people do say they are a barbaric society.

I am saying Christianity is a guilty of barbarity in its past as some Muslim countries are today. Neither of the two religious societies have clean hands. The world cannot drag a country's laws into the present if the country is nor willing to do so.

Tactful diplomacy works better than dropping nuclear bombs on Mecca and Medina (as at least one poster would like to see).

why are you arguing with me then?  I think all of that and have been saying so.

[happyhoix]

Oct 9, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I cautiously agree with the death penalty. But I do believe it is sometimes used in the remaining death penalty states too often (Texas comes to mind).

As for the rest of your post, yes Christian majority/western nations no longer chop off hands and other sundry acts of revenge. But they used to up to a few hundred years ago. As Islam came into being about 600 years after the beginning of Christianity, it will probably take Muslims a while to catch up with the rest of the world.

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

What would you propose to do to stop it? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies.  They don't care what we think about their legal system.

We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. Right now I'm reading about a case in Louisiana where a young man was charged with murdering his infant when three other expert forensic pediatricians stated the baby died from pneumonia and that the brain swelling the state's forensic person said was due to being strangled never happens in strangulation cases - but does when a baby dies of pneumonia.

Convicted by a DA who had a picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest in his office, claimed he felt likehe worked in a jungle and who based his case on the young man being an unemployeed pot smoker.  
The young man was also poor, which is a common denominator for many people who end up on death row.

I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's.

[djAdvocate]

Oct 9, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:04:09 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

I cautiously agree with the death penalty. But I do believe it is sometimes used in the remaining death penalty states too often (Texas comes to mind).

As for the rest of your post, yes Christian majority/western nations no longer chop off hands and other sundry acts of revenge. But they used to up to a few hundred years ago. As Islam came into being about 600 years after the beginning of Christianity, it will probably take Muslims a while to catch up with the rest of the world.

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

i doubt it will last that long.  but i think it would be well to consider what would STOP the barbarity.

Paul has suggested dropping the A-bomb on Mecca.  do you suspect that would help?

[Deleted]

Oct 9, 2015 10:26:32 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:08:01 GMT -5 @hickle said:

You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? 

What would you propose to do to stop it? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies.  They don't care what we think about their legal system.

We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. Right now I'm reading about a case in Louisiana where a young man was charged with murdering his infant when three other expert forensic pediatricians stated the baby died from pneumonia and that the brain swelling the state's forensic person said was due to being strangled never happens in strangulation cases - but does when a baby dies of pneumonia.

Convicted by a DA who had a picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest in his office, claimed he felt likehe worked in a jungle and who based his case on the young man being an unemployeed pot smoker.  
The young man was also poor, which is a common denominator for many people who end up on death row.

I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's.

Quit supporting middle east governments. That might not stop it, but we would not be complicit in it. 

[djAdvocate]

Oct 9, 2015 10:14:55 GMT -5 @hickle said:

Oct 9, 2015 10:10:30 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

The known world had to be good with Christian barbarity for what-13 14 centuries?

What is your point?  Christianity did some terrible things so it is only right that we allow Islam to ?  Is that your view?

I don't think we should go over there and stop them, but I do think we should say that they are a barbaric society. Saying Islam is a big part of that is just recognizing the truth.

they are not a "society".  Islam in Indonesia bears little resemblance to radical Islam.