djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2015 10:33:02 GMT -5
What would you propose to do to stop it? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies. They don't care what we think about their legal system. We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. Right now I'm reading about a case in Louisiana where a young man was charged with murdering his infant when three other expert forensic pediatricians stated the baby died from pneumonia and that the brain swelling the state's forensic person said was due to being strangled never happens in strangulation cases - but does when a baby dies of pneumonia. Convicted by a DA who had a picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest in his office, claimed he felt likehe worked in a jungle and who based his case on the young man being an unemployeed pot smoker. The young man was also poor, which is a common denominator for many people who end up on death row. I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's. Quit supporting middle east governments. That might not stop it, but we would not be complicit in it. there is only one problem with that idea, and that is that DC is basically a company town for ARAMCO.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 9, 2015 10:34:23 GMT -5
You are good with 600 more years of barbarity from Muslims? i doubt it will last that long. but i think it would be well to consider what would STOP the barbarity. Paul has suggested dropping the A-bomb on Mecca. do you suspect that would help? Don't forget Medina! Why no mention of nuking Islam's third most holy shrine, the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, I don't know.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 9, 2015 10:39:27 GMT -5
What would you propose to do to stop it? We would never impose economic sanctions against the Saudis because we need them as allies. They don't care what we think about their legal system. We can't change what they do, but we can change our own legal system. Right now I'm reading about a case in Louisiana where a young man was charged with murdering his infant when three other expert forensic pediatricians stated the baby died from pneumonia and that the brain swelling the state's forensic person said was due to being strangled never happens in strangulation cases - but does when a baby dies of pneumonia. Convicted by a DA who had a picture of Nathan Bedford Forrest in his office, claimed he felt likehe worked in a jungle and who based his case on the young man being an unemployeed pot smoker. The young man was also poor, which is a common denominator for many people who end up on death row. I think we have a lot of work to do to clean up our own legal system before we start being outraged at someone else's. Quit supporting middle east governments. That might not stop it, but we would not be complicit in it. How would you feel if England announced they weren't going to do business with us anymore until we gave up the death penalty like they did? What if the called us heathens and barbarians because we still execute people? Do you think that would make us more or less likely to want to change our legal system? Or would we feel like the damn limeys are trying to blackmail us?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 10:43:52 GMT -5
Quit supporting middle east governments. That might not stop it, but we would not be complicit in it. How would you feel if England announced they weren't going to do business with us anymore until we gave up the death penalty like they did? What if the called us heathens and barbarians because we still execute people? Do you think that would make us more or less likely to want to change our legal system? Or would we feel like the damn limeys are trying to blackmail us? I think if England was sending forces over here to change governments they did not like we would have resented it and done something like the Monroe doctrine.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Oct 9, 2015 13:54:11 GMT -5
How would you feel if England announced they weren't going to do business with us anymore until we gave up the death penalty like they did? What if the called us heathens and barbarians because we still execute people? Do you think that would make us more or less likely to want to change our legal system? Or would we feel like the damn limeys are trying to blackmail us? I think if England was sending forces over here to change governments they did not like we would have resented it and done something like the Monroe doctrine. My point is Saudi Arabia is not likely to care what we think about their legal system, just like we don't care that other countries don't like that we have a death penalty.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2015 15:02:37 GMT -5
I think if England was sending forces over here to change governments they did not like we would have resented it and done something like the Monroe doctrine. My point is Saudi Arabia is not likely to care what we think about their legal system, just like we don't care that other countries don't like that we have a death penalty. nor should they. it is this "sovereignty" thing that we hear the right crowing about constantly.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Oct 9, 2015 15:10:19 GMT -5
The Middle East and many other Muslim countries are barbaric...my first instinct is to kill then all. But then, what would that make me...no better than them. Let;s take the high road.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 9, 2015 15:51:10 GMT -5
I'm not Christian so I don't know about that. Germany put us to death 70 yrs ago but even they've advanced. And I can say this here and in Germany but not in Saudi Arabia .... actual bc I never take my star off, I can't go there again
I dn agree with the death penalty and have been excused from 'capital' cases bc of that. Maybe I should have sat and voted against it but they dn want me
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 9, 2015 16:27:20 GMT -5
During the time I lived in Saudi (over 10 years) I saw two people who were missing hands. Only two and I can only assume they lost their hands because of theft. The loss may have resulted from something else. I have no way of knowing, for sure. I did see a few more people missing fingers (which is another choice that is sometimes used) but, again, can't know for sure why they were missing. As to beheading, there are any number of reasons for it by Sharia law. Most occur due to theft and only if someone is killed during the robbery. I believe it's possible if someone proves himself to be a chronic thief, but I'm not sure of that. Beheading, contrary to what is claimed by some online sites, is not done daily. It's not even done weekly, necessarily. It's done when someone is convicted (through trial) of an offense that warrants it and beheadings are not conducted daily. They're conducted weekly.
That said, I'm speaking for the cities. I'm not familiar with the rural, primitive areas. I'd imagine there's more of it there. Does it work? Yep. It works. If you walk through a Saudi souk you'll see 18k and 21k gold hanging on hooks in an open display on the street in front of a jeweler. You'll see jewelry with precious stones you can pick up and examine at your leisure without entering the shop itself. People, as a general rule, do not steal. Part of it is because it's immoral to do so and, I'm sure, part is because people value their hands and fingers. On the other hand, would I want to see that sort of thing done here? Not on your life! Yet, it's their country, not mine. While there, we didn't worry about what might happen if we stole something, or committed some other dastardly act. That sorta wasn't in our game-plan anyway and Americans are generally just thrown out of the country rather than being subjected to the more striking aspects of Sharia law. As to following their cultural rules, it wasn't a major problem for us, as Americans. If we made an effort, most Saudi's were friendly and accepting of us. If we made a gaffe, most would correct us kindly and politely.
There's a lot of misinformation on the internet and a lot of assumption based on that misinformation. Saudi isn't a paradise, by any means. However, it's not the basement of hell, either. It's another country and another culture very different from our own. Granted, I haven't been there in almost 20 years but I do have Saudi friends with whom I've kept in contact. As I hear it from them, things haven't changed much. A few more opportunities for women but little else. Change there has the pace of a half-dead snail.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 16:49:50 GMT -5
The Saudi's get their ideas on punishment from their religion. If you want to criticize Saudi Arabia, a big part of the problem is Islam. Which is perfect proof that religion in Government is a BAAAAAAAAAaaad idea.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 18:35:00 GMT -5
I think if England was sending forces over here to change governments they did not like we would have resented it and done something like the Monroe doctrine. My point is Saudi Arabia is not likely to care what we think about their legal system, just like we don't care that other countries don't like that we have a death penalty. I would suggest that if other countries do not like us or our values they do not send drones and soldiers to uphold our country and the values we promote.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 9, 2015 19:09:10 GMT -5
Huh?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Oct 10, 2015 0:45:04 GMT -5
i doubt it will last that long. but i think it would be well to consider what would STOP the barbarity. Paul has suggested dropping the A-bomb on Mecca. do you suspect that would help? Don't forget Medina! Why no mention of nuking Islam's third most holy shrine, the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, I don't know. Because it is the dumbest idea ever?
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 10, 2015 12:27:24 GMT -5
(1) During the time I lived in Saudi (over 10 years) I saw two people who were missing hands. Only two and I can only assume (2) they lost their hands because of theft ... As to beheading, there are any number of reasons for it by Sharia law. ... (3) It's done when someone is convicted (through trial) of an offense that warrants it ... (4) it's not the basement of hell, either. ... (5) things haven't changed much. (1) you must have either been in a secluded area or only permitted a secluded view (2) theft or the accusation of theft (3) women's testimony still taken at 1/2 value? (4) beg to differ, I've been there (5) agree
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2015 12:42:00 GMT -5
(1) During the time I lived in Saudi (over 10 years) I saw two people who were missing hands. Only two and I can only assume (2) they lost their hands because of theft. The loss may have resulted from something else. I have no way of knowing, for sure. ... As to beheading, there are any number of reasons for it by Sharia law. ... (3) It's done when someone is convicted (through trial) of an offense that warrants it ... (4) it's not the basement of hell, either. ... (5) things haven't changed much. (1) you must have either been in a secluded area or only permitted a secluded view (2) theft or the accusation of theft (3) women's testimony still taken at 1/2 value? (4) beg to differ, I've been there (5) agree 1. Nope. Worked for Aramco but had family in Riyadh. Got out and about a lot in Dammam and Riyadh. Had quite a few Saudi friends. 2. Could have been theft. Could have been accusation of theft, in which case it would go before a qadi. Could have been a natural loss (illness or accident). I have no way to know. 3. Witnesses must be Muslim and should be male. Two women can substitute for one man, yes, if necessary. 4. You're welcome to disagree. I lived there for over 10 years and didn't find it all that awful. There are actually some very nice places there (like Taif). YMMV
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 10, 2015 13:13:39 GMT -5
20-City Anti-Islam Rally Puts Mosques Across U.S. on High AlertAn organization called the Global Rally for Humanity is organizing a series of events this weekend in at least 20 U.S. cities to protest Islam, targeting mosques, community centers and government offices. “Standing up against Islam does not mean you’re a racist or a bigot, it simply means you’re not an idiot and can see the reality of Islam around the world,” rally organizers wrote on their Facebook page. “The world is saying no to Islam.” Numerous mosques have upped security because of the rallies, which are being organized via social media. The Council on American-Islamic Relations is working with Islamic community leaders to notify local authorities in the cities where rallies are planned. Rally organizers in New York City suggest demonstrators target mosques in all five boroughs. In Dearborn, Michigan, protesters are being asked to bring their weapons for an "open carry, anti-mosque, pro-America rally." "Organizers of the hate rallies have indicated that participants in states with open carry laws may be armed and that provocations such as the use of live pigs and Quran desecrations may occur," the Council on American-Islamic Relations said in a statement. "The anti-Islam rallies come at a time of increased hate-motivated crimes and bias incidents nationwide targeting persons and property associated, or perceived to be associated, with Islam and the American Muslim community. 20-City Anti-Islam Rally Puts Mosques Across U.S. on High Alert
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 10, 2015 13:34:25 GMT -5
this shit has to stop. now.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 10, 2015 17:55:07 GMT -5
Agreed, rally but leave your guns at home. They should be treated with the same respect and liberties here that everyone has there -- Muslims, Christians, Jews, LGBTQ, and Atheists
But wait .... we've progressed and guarantee everyone the basic life, liberty, justice. We aren't stuck in the middle ages. At least no one will be beheaded with their headless body put on display for participating in a protest rally here in the USA
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 18:56:47 GMT -5
20-City Anti-Islam Rally Puts Mosques Across U.S. on High AlertAn organization called the Global Rally for Humanity is organizing a series of events this weekend in at least 20 U.S. cities to protest Islam, targeting mosques, community centers and government offices. “Standing up against Islam does not mean you’re a racist or a bigot, it simply means you’re not an idiot and can see the reality of Islam around the world,” rally organizers wrote on their Facebook page. “The world is saying no to Islam.” Numerous mosques have upped security because of the rallies, which are being organized via social media. The Council on American-Islamic Relations is working with Islamic community leaders to notify local authorities in the cities where rallies are planned. Rally organizers in New York City suggest demonstrators target mosques in all five boroughs. In Dearborn, Michigan, protesters are being asked to bring their weapons for an "open carry, anti-mosque, pro-America rally." "Organizers of the hate rallies have indicated that participants in states with open carry laws may be armed and that provocations such as the use of live pigs and Quran desecrations may occur," the Council on American-Islamic Relations said in a statement. "The anti-Islam rallies come at a time of increased hate-motivated crimes and bias incidents nationwide targeting persons and property associated, or perceived to be associated, with Islam and the American Muslim community. 20-City Anti-Islam Rally Puts Mosques Across U.S. on High Alert Freedom of speech does not mean that people can't make fun of you for what you are saying or think what you are saying is bad or hurtful. Freedom of religion does not mean that people can't make fun of you for what you believe or think what you are practicing is bad or hurtful.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 21:34:12 GMT -5
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 11, 2015 8:48:10 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 11, 2015 9:00:52 GMT -5
I don't know, Ombud, what happened here. The woman claims a reason for what was done to her but is that the truth, or did she steal (or attempt to steal) from her employer? We don't know. We also don't know what happened to the alleged attacker. I'm not sure why you're asking me. I know no more than you do. Are there miscarriages of justice in Saudi? Of course! There are miscarriages of justice everywhere. Do I, personally, agree with their system and believe it should be implemented here? As I've said, I most certainly do not. However, that is not my country; nor, is it my culture. What happened to this woman, IMO, is between the Saudi government and the Indian government. It has nothing to do with us.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 9:23:28 GMT -5
I don't know, Ombud, what happened here. The woman claims a reason for what was done to her but is that the truth, or did she steal (or attempt to steal) from her employer? We don't know. We also don't know what happened to the alleged attacker. I'm not sure why you're asking me. I know no more than you do. Are there miscarriages of justice in Saudi? Of course! There are miscarriages of justice everywhere. Do I, personally, agree with their system and believe it should be implemented here? As I've said, I most certainly do not. However, that is not my country; nor, is it my culture. What happened to this woman, IMO, is between the Saudi government and the Indian government. It has nothing to do with us.Posters, rightfully so, speak out about injustice to others all the time. When the kids were killed at Sandy Hook it concerned those personally involved and the state of Connecticut. It was a horrible crime and people are right to say it is wrong and to speak of how evil and terrible it was. The Saudi government does great evil in the name of Islam. People who were justified in saying Sandy Hook was a great wrong are just as justified in criticizing the middle eastern governments who behead or crucify or maim. It is not just an injustice to the woman involved. It was an injustice to humanity. My opinion for what it is worth. eta; and we can and should do something about it. We directly support the Saudi government with arms and intelligence.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 11, 2015 9:28:11 GMT -5
No one on this thread has said Saudi Arabia is all hunky-dory, the land of milk and honey, and the country least likely to violate human rights.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 11, 2015 10:04:13 GMT -5
I don't know, Ombud, what happened here. The woman claims a reason for what was done to her but is that the truth, or did she steal (or attempt to steal) from her employer? We don't know. We also don't know what happened to the alleged attacker. I'm not sure why you're asking me. I know no more than you do. Are there miscarriages of justice in Saudi? Of course! There are miscarriages of justice everywhere. Do I, personally, agree with their system and believe it should be implemented here? As I've said, I most certainly do not. However, that is not my country; nor, is it my culture. What happened to this woman, IMO, is between the Saudi government and the Indian government. It has nothing to do with us.Posters, rightfully so, speak out about injustice to others all the time. When the kids were killed at Sandy Hook it concerned those personally involved and the state of Connecticut. It was a horrible crime and people are right to say it is wrong and to speak of how evil and terrible it was. The Saudi government does great evil in the name of Islam. People who were justified in saying Sandy Hook was a great wrong are just as justified in criticizing the middle eastern governments who behead or crucify or maim. It is not just an injustice to the woman involved. It was an injustice to humanity. My opinion for what it is worth. eta; and we can and should do something about it. We directly support the Saudi government with arms and intelligence. You have an opinion and so do I. Our opinions differ only slightly. We, as Americans, can have a direct impact on what happens in this country to a much greater extent than we can on what happens in another country. The behind-the-scenes finagling by the PTB of the "war machine" implemented, in part, by corporations that have an interest in the monetary gains they receive from it is not something I can have much impact on as a single citizen. I can only disapprove and show that disapproval when I vote. It's my opinion we need to clean up our own back yard before we take the backhoe to someone else's back yard. You see it differently and, while I see where you're coming from, I can't agree. Of course, as you say, people are welcome to speak out. That's what we're here for.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Oct 11, 2015 11:22:57 GMT -5
My view is skewed by when I was there without the benefit of a company town setting. Although it was a lot more protective than the view Indian household employees get
But then I would consider a lot of Chicago and certain neighborhoods in Oakland disturbing too ... can only impact my own hood but Oakland is working on it
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 11, 2015 11:59:23 GMT -5
Agreed, rally but leave your guns at home. They should be treated with the same respect and liberties here that everyone has there -- Muslims, Christians, Jews, LGBTQ, and Atheists
But wait .... we've progressed and guarantee everyone the basic life, liberty, justice. We aren't stuck in the middle ages. At least no one will be beheaded with their headless body put on display for participating in a protest rally here in the USA There are seven states where atheists can't hold public office. Kind of like that?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 12:19:55 GMT -5
Agreed, rally but leave your guns at home. They should be treated with the same respect and liberties here that everyone has there -- Muslims, Christians, Jews, LGBTQ, and Atheists
But wait .... we've progressed and guarantee everyone the basic life, liberty, justice. We aren't stuck in the middle ages. At least no one will be beheaded with their headless body put on display for participating in a protest rally here in the USA There are seven states where atheists can't hold public office. Kind of like that? Those restrictions have not been in use for 50 years.
By Hunter Schwarz July 8, 2014
Eight state constitutions include restrictions on people who don’t believe in a supreme being. In Arkansas, denying the existence of God means you can’t hold civil office or testify in court, while in Tennessee there are also guidelines about belief in the hereafter.
States with restrictions on atheists holding office
However, the Supreme Court ruled in a 1961 case that a Maryland man appointed as a notary public didn’t have to declare his belief in a supreme being to hold office, arguing it violated his rights under the First and Fourteenth Amendments. Since then, these restrictions haven’t been enforced, said Dave Muscato, a spokesman for American Atheists. www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/08/there-are-states-where-you-technically-cant-hold-public-office-if-youre-an-atheist/
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:36:45 GMT -5
I don't know, Ombud, what happened here. The woman claims a reason for what was done to her but is that the truth, or did she steal (or attempt to steal) from her employer? We don't know. We also don't know what happened to the alleged attacker. I'm not sure why you're asking me. I know no more than you do. Are there miscarriages of justice in Saudi? Of course! There are miscarriages of justice everywhere. Do I, personally, agree with their system and believe it should be implemented here? As I've said, I most certainly do not. However, that is not my country; nor, is it my culture. What happened to this woman, IMO, is between the Saudi government and the Indian government. It has nothing to do with us. over 100 people on death row have been exonerated by DNA evidence over 100 people were tortured to death in Bagram under US custody if we want to complain about the injustices done in SA, that is great, but i would much prefer that we work on the injustices that are committed by our own hands.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5
Posters, rightfully so, speak out about injustice to others all the time. When the kids were killed at Sandy Hook it concerned those personally involved and the state of Connecticut. It was a horrible crime and people are right to say it is wrong and to speak of how evil and terrible it was. The Saudi government does great evil in the name of Islam. People who were justified in saying Sandy Hook was a great wrong are just as justified in criticizing the middle eastern governments who behead or crucify or maim. It is not just an injustice to the woman involved. It was an injustice to humanity. My opinion for what it is worth. eta; and we can and should do something about it. We directly support the Saudi government with arms and intelligence. You have an opinion and so do I. Our opinions differ only slightly. We, as Americans, can have a direct impact on what happens in this country to a much greater extent than we can on what happens in another country. The behind-the-scenes finagling by the PTB of the "war machine" implemented, in part, by corporations that have an interest in the monetary gains they receive from it is not something I can have much impact on as a single citizen. I can only disapprove and show that disapproval when I vote. It's my opinion we need to clean up our own back yard before we take the backhoe to someone else's back yard. You see it differently and, while I see where you're coming from, I can't agree. Of course, as you say, people are welcome to speak out. That's what we're here for. and again, if we are going to make this about how our actions affect the way things go in the world, how about Israel? how about Pakistan? how about far flung places like Equatorial Guinea, where half the population has no potable water, and the president owns palatial estates in New England, and visits here regularly? we could do a LOT of things differently, and we probably should, but we NEVER complain about 99% of those things, including the things for which we are DIRECTLY, NOT INDIRECTLY, responsible.
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