weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 4, 2015 11:28:09 GMT -5
I'm sure that's true for some. It usually is when a catastrophe makes it possible for manipulators to manipulate. That's why it's necessary for due diligence to be applied when processing these immigrants. Provide them with shelter, food, and warmth while they wait to be processed (Ellis Island, anyone?) and if that's not suitable, if I were Finland I'd offer them a flight back to the Syrian border. I do feel, however, it ain't good to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Macedonia put out the welcome mat and offered them safe harbour and citizenship. In one weekend 8,000 refugees poured into Macedonia and you know how many took the offer? One. One tired lone woman with a child. The other 7,999 said "Nah. The benefits are better in Germany." This is country-shopping, no more and no less. If I was fleeing war and bombs, I would be grateful to any country that offered to take me in. Anything, just to be safe.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 4, 2015 11:32:35 GMT -5
I'm sure that's true for some. It usually is when a catastrophe makes it possible for manipulators to manipulate. That's why it's necessary for due diligence to be applied when processing these immigrants. Provide them with shelter, food, and warmth while they wait to be processed (Ellis Island, anyone?) and if that's not suitable, if I were Finland I'd offer them a flight back to the Syrian border. I do feel, however, it ain't good to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Macedonia put out the welcome mat and offered them safe harbour and citizenship. In one weekend 8,000 refugees poured into Macedonia and you know how many took the offer? One. One tired lone woman with a child. The other 7,999 said "Nah. The benefits are better in Germany." This is country-shopping, no more and no less. If I was fleeing war and bombs, I would be grateful to any country that offered to take me in. Anything, just to be safe.
As would I, welts. I just can't ignore the fact that all are not going to be the same and some really need, and want a safe place for their families. I think we're going to hear mostly the negatives because people are spooked by so many "strangers" coming into their countries. They feel invaded and I can understand that, too. As long as the receiving countries (like Germany) are checking these people out, hopefully most of those who would cause real problems will be weeded out. As I said, if they're just moving to find their personal Utopias, I'd have no objection to dropping them off at the Syrian border.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2015 11:49:15 GMT -5
... Macedonia put out the welcome mat and offered them safe harbour and citizenship. In one weekend 8,000 refugees poured into Macedonia and you know how many took the offer? One. One tired lone woman with a child. The other 7,999 said "Nah. The benefits are better in Germany." ... Great story. You have a link?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 4, 2015 12:03:58 GMT -5
I am not too keen on the idea of women and their children only being allowed refugee status in other countries. I would imagine these refugees will be held in refugee camps until more temporary or permanent shelter is found for them. The camps will probably be controlled by mostly men and some of these men could take advantage of the women and older female children. The mothers may voluntarily submit to the men's demands just to protect their children from harm.
That's not right. Having the husbands and fathers around will at least offer the women and children some protection from others who may wish to take illegal advantage of them. It happens.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 4, 2015 12:16:07 GMT -5
... Macedonia put out the welcome mat and offered them safe harbour and citizenship. In one weekend 8,000 refugees poured into Macedonia and you know how many took the offer? One. One tired lone woman with a child. The other 7,999 said "Nah. The benefits are better in Germany." ... Great story. You have a link? Sorry. It was Croatia, not Macedonia.
Already 13,500 refugees have entered Croatia so far, which is the highest number of migrants in such a short time to enter a country, but everything is under control and the state can handle it, Foreign Minister Vesna Pusic said on Friday, adding that of all the refugees, only one, a woman, had requested asylum in Croatia.
vlada.gov.hr/news/only-one-refugee-has-requested-asylum-says-croatian-fm/17745
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 4, 2015 12:19:52 GMT -5
Looks like hell on earth, doesn't it? "Not good enough!"
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 4, 2015 12:28:43 GMT -5
Great story. You have a link? Sorry. It was Croatia, not Macedonia.
Already 13,500 refugees have entered Croatia so far, which is the highest number of migrants in such a short time to enter a country, but everything is under control and the state can handle it, Foreign Minister Vesna Pusic said on Friday, adding that of all the refugees, only one, a woman, had requested asylum in Croatia.
vlada.gov.hr/news/only-one-refugee-has-requested-asylum-says-croatian-fm/17745
Thanks. I didn't see the part where there was an offer of citizenship nor where the quote you offered was in the link.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 4, 2015 23:45:56 GMT -5
I agree with Welts that there seems to be a fair amount of country-shoping to be going on. However, if someone who flees for his life looks for the best place to land (the Syrian that bypasses Hungary to get to Germany for instance), does that make him any les of a refugee ? However, I also do believe that it is necessary to try and check the veracity of a refugee's story, and if s/he lies, that is reason for expulsion, if for no other reason than that recources are limited. But using your brains while fleeing does, at least in my opinion, not disqualify someone from refugee status.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 5, 2015 8:18:08 GMT -5
I agree with Welts that there seems to be a fair amount of country-shoping to be going on. However, if someone who flees for his life looks for the best place to land (the Syrian that bypasses Hungary to get to Germany for instance), does that make him any les of a refugee ? However, I also do believe that it is necessary to try and check the veracity of a refugee's story, and if s/he lies, that is reason for expulsion, if for no other reason than that recources are limited. But using your brains while fleeing does, at least in my opinion, not disqualify someone from refugee status. If I had to flee, I would look for a place where I could find a community to fit into. Just like the Irish and Italians created their own sub-cultures in the USA in the nineteenth century, I would look for a place where maybe someone knew what I had been through, and are still going through. Maybe someone spoke the same language as me. Maybe someone had figured out how to get a job, or how the schools work for my children, etc. If one lady is going to stay in Croatia, that isn't much of a network to help get me established. If I was leaving under more ideal circumstances - had some resources, maybe had planned something out - immersion would be a lot easier. But to show up in a country where many people likely have the attitude of some people expressed here, and people are going to think I am there to start a Jihad, and that I was just a leech on the system, and I had a long way to go to learn the language and culture, and oh, by the way, the only possession I had was the dirty clothes on my back - there would be comfort in knowing that I could find a welcoming place in Germany.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 12:25:12 GMT -5
My parents were refugees. When they were rescued from the camps, they couldn't go home....there was no home to go back to. They were asked if they would like to go to Canada, and they jumped at the chance. They had no idea what Canada was, where it was, or who lived there. Anything to start over in a safe place, free from bombs and war and destruction. They were eternally grateful to be given a chance to live here. They never went on welfare and never took handouts. My father worked in the far north lumber camps and my mother worked in a factory in order to pay back the cost of their passage. Just having enough to eat was something they considered a blessing. My sister and I were told every day how lucky we were not to born in a war-torn country. They were grateful to Canada every day of their lives, and proudly displayed the picture of the queen in every room. These "refugees" seem to be saying "Nah, not good enough. Too cold, I don't like the food, not enough restaurants, no nightlife. We'll shop around for something else."
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Oct 5, 2015 12:36:19 GMT -5
Merkel has done us no favours.....Germany is welcoming refugees with open arms (Up to 800K)... and is demanding the rest of Europe do the same. They won't. Only about a third of the people will qualify for refugee status anyway.....There is going to be huge numbers of people in Europe, heading for Germany who won't get in.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2015 12:38:14 GMT -5
... Anything to start over in a safe place, free from bombs and war and destruction. ... These "refugees" seem to be saying "Nah, not good enough. Too cold, I don't like the food, not enough restaurants, no nightlife. We'll shop around for something else." You are comparing the example of two people to media reports of what "seems" to be going on. My guess would be that there were people from your parents era who did what "seems" to be going on now and that there are people now who are doing what your parents did.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 12:52:35 GMT -5
... Anything to start over in a safe place, free from bombs and war and destruction. ... These "refugees" seem to be saying "Nah, not good enough. Too cold, I don't like the food, not enough restaurants, no nightlife. We'll shop around for something else." You are comparing the example of two people to media reports of what "seems" to be going on. My guess would be that there were people from your parents era who did what "seems" to be going on now and that there are people now who are doing what your parents did.Accepting refuge in any country which is willing to take them in, just to be safe? I see very little of that. They're demanding to go to Germany, where the benefits are generous. The Iraqi refugees in Uruguay are complaining bitterly and asking that they be sent back to the Middle East.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2015 13:09:23 GMT -5
... I see very little of that. They're demanding to go to Germany, where the benefits are generous. The Iraqi refugees in Uruguay are complaining bitterly and asking that they be sent back to the Middle East.
I see none of it. I read media reports which do highlight this type of behavior but have no way of knowing if it is actually widespread. You indicated that there were a small number of people asking for asylum in Croatia. Here is a link that shows that country's high rejection rate for those who apply.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 5, 2015 13:20:46 GMT -5
I was stationed on Guam in 1975 when Saigon fell and the Vietnamese refugees came through. I have a Humanitarian Service Ribbon to prove it. I was still there in 1976 when those who couldn't/won't adjust to life in the States came back through. (My suggestion that we get a Un-Humanitarian Ribbon for that was rejected. ) I find it interesting that I can find many accounts of the move from Vietnam but nothing on those who returned. Media is interesting.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 13:25:01 GMT -5
Your link doesn't work for me. The Foreign Minister of Croatia said only one person applied. Furthermore, Canada also rejects a large number of asylum seekers. Turns out, many are not in danger in their home countries, much like all the refugees from Russia pouring into Finland, claiming refugee status. They've been in Russia for seven years, but are now looking for greener pastures.
Are you claiming that every country should take every asylum seeker who asks? Third-world chitholes would empty out tout suite, bringing all the problems inherent in their cultures, like female genital mutilation, honour killings, misogyny in general and warring factions like Sunni vs Shiite.
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Spellbound454
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Post by Spellbound454 on Oct 5, 2015 13:37:25 GMT -5
The migrants moving across Europe aren't just Syrian.....They are Eritrean, Somalian, Iraqi, Pakistani. They are mostly heading for Germany and Sweden. Under EU rules they should stay in the first safe country they come to......but that isn't happening and they are picking and choosing where they want to be. Many Syrians were in Turkey (which is safe) but they don't want to stay there.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 13:38:37 GMT -5
I was stationed on Guam in 1975 when Saigon fell and the Vietnamese refugees came through. I have a Humanitarian Service Ribbon to prove it. I was still there in 1976 when those who couldn't/won't adjust to life in the States came back through. (My suggestion that we get a Un-Humanitarian Ribbon for that was rejected. ) I find it interesting that I can find many accounts of the move from Vietnam but nothing on those who returned. Media is interesting. I had no problem with Vietnamese refugees, and we took in plenty. They were good citizens. The Muslims in Canada now are demanding we change everything to accommodate them. They want to change zoning laws, they protest in front of public schools so that they'll change their curriculums, they demand (and get) special treatment every time they turn around. Gyms and swimming pools have to segregated, fathers can no longer watch their little girls have swimming lessons, and we recently had a Muslim husband DEMAND that we send for a doctor who was on vacation, so his special snowflake of a wife wouldn't be seen by a male. They thumb their noses at our court system, set up GoFundMe accounts when they don't get their legal way, and many are on welfare. Oh, and the vandalizing of 100 cars with "Convert to Islam...or ELSE!" was a nice touch, don't you think? If you want to accept these people into your home, be my guest. They're nothing like the Vietnamese refugees.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 13:42:02 GMT -5
Billis, talk to me when YOU are told by an Afghan refugee that you should be raped and killed because you're wearing jeans and a T-shirt. That's exactly what happened to me went I was buying school supplies for my son.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 5, 2015 13:48:12 GMT -5
Your link doesn't work for me. The Foreign Minister of Croatia said only one person applied. Furthermore, Canada also rejects a large number of asylum seekers. Turns out, many are not in danger in their home countries, much like all the refugees from Russia pouring into Finland, claiming refugee status. They've been in Russia for seven years, but are now looking for greener pastures.
Are you claiming that every country should take every asylum seeker who asks? Third-world chitholes would empty out tout suite, bringing all the problems inherent in their cultures, like female genital mutilation, honour killings, misogyny in general and warring factions like Sunni vs Shiite.
It's a hard issue to really address because not doing enough is seen as heartless and doing too much is sure to be taken advantage of (kind of like you stated at the end of your post). The only real difference between an illegal immigrant and a refugee is usually if their lives are in danger in the country they are trying to flee, but both are usually just trying to find a better life for the most part; the main issue is trying to determine how many are in real danger versus how many are just "looking for greener pastures." However, in both situations, a country needs to maintain a certain level of control in order to prevent the issues you mention.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 5, 2015 13:55:46 GMT -5
I'd look at women with children only to begin with. But no welfare of any kind and they cannot breed more children. Any hint of problems by them or their brood, OUT they all go. Adult males? No way, no how. They're trouble looking for someplace to happen. What about husbands or are you saying only single women with children?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 14:25:48 GMT -5
We actually did send for the doctor to come back from vacation. The son of a b!tch was willing to let her die, rather than being examined by a male. You want to import this kind of culture?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 14:30:50 GMT -5
They're certainly not very tolerant of their adoptive countries.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 5, 2015 14:37:00 GMT -5
We actually did send for the doctor to come back from vacation. The son of a b!tch was willing to let her die, rather than being examined by a male. You want to import this kind of culture? Well that's not very tolerant... Who isn't? the people who say "we don't want this sh*t here" or the one that refuses his family member to be examined by a male? Tolerance needs to go both ways. In the Netherlands they are fast-tracking a law that lets it legally refuse to recognize amrriages to child brides. "Husbands" will be deported and "wives" will be supported once this law is in place (it's a big ruckus so they really are speeding this law through)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 14:51:16 GMT -5
They're certainly not very tolerant of their adoptive countries. I have to be honest, I didn't think you were a 'must assimilate' kind of person. I would have expected this statement more from Shooby than you. Not judging... just surprised. I didn't used to be like this....then I saw what was going on around me. Ridiculous demands and honour killings and letting girl toddlers die from neglect and starvation, while the boy is healthy and coddled, plots to blow up our railroads, etc. You're welcome to it. I don't have to tolerate it.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 5, 2015 14:53:17 GMT -5
They're certainly not very tolerant of their adoptive countries. I have to be honest, I didn't think you were a 'must assimilate' kind of person. I would have expected this statement more from Shooby than you. Not judging... just surprised. So your answer is that those countries must cater to their culture (good and bad)? It's always kind of strange to me how many people complain about Americans that expect the countries they visit to cater to them, and the argument is usually something like "we should respect the cultures and customs of that country because we are a guest"...but then have a completely different view when the situation is reversed about "guest" of this or other countries. I don't think I read anywhere where welts is saying to completely "assimilate" in order to be accepted. One more question, would you be judging if it was Shooby would was making the statement?
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 5, 2015 14:59:35 GMT -5
So your answer is that those countries must cater to their culture (good and bad)? It's always kind of strange to me how many people complain about Americans that expect the countries they visit to cater to them, and the argument is usually something like "we should respect the cultures and customs of that country because we are a guest"...but then have a completely different view when the situation is reversed about "guest" of this or other countries. I don't think I read anywhere where welts is saying to completely "assimilate" in order to be accepted. Hold on there big shooter.. I haven't said anything. I was asking Weltz a question, which she answered. Did you miss the 'not judging' part? I haven't weighed in on any side of the discussion. What's a big shooter?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 5, 2015 15:05:14 GMT -5
So your answer is that those countries must cater to their culture (good and bad)? It's always kind of strange to me how many people complain about Americans that expect the countries they visit to cater to them, and the argument is usually something like "we should respect the cultures and customs of that country because we are a guest"...but then have a completely different view when the situation is reversed about "guest" of this or other countries. I don't think I read anywhere where welts is saying to completely "assimilate" in order to be accepted. Hold on there big shooter.. I haven't said anything. I was asking Weltz a question, which she answered. Did you miss the 'not judging' part? I haven't weighed in on any side of the discussion. I used to be a "peace, love, groovy" kind of liberal. I'm still a liberal, but I don't like what's happening. These people asked to come here...we didn't beg them. We were gracious enough to let them in, but they want us to change everything to cater to them, while sucking off the public teat. "Work? Why work? If Canada is stupid enough to give us money for nothing, we'll take it!"
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Oct 5, 2015 15:10:00 GMT -5
Hold on there big shooter.. I haven't said anything. I was asking Weltz a question, which she answered. Did you miss the 'not judging' part? I haven't weighed in on any side of the discussion. I used to be a "peace, love, groovy" kind of liberal. I'm still a liberal, but I don't like what's happening. These people asked to come here...we didn't beg them. We were gracious enough to let them in, but they want us to change everything to cater to them, while sucking off the public teat. "Work? Why work? If Canada is stupid enough to give us money for nothing, we'll take it!"
Am I in an alternative dimension because I can't think of too much that welts and I have agreed on? In this case, it seems to be that there has to be a limit on how much you are willing to give in order to keep it from being taken advantage of too much. It doesn't mean you don't give anything, just that there needs to be limits in place. Did I get that right welts?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 5, 2015 15:17:24 GMT -5
I think most agree there must be due diligence in researching these folks before they're allowed to immigrate. If they don't want to be in the Ukraine and would rather be in the Middle East, I'd say fly 'em back to the border and drop them off. In the end, it would be cheaper than feeding and sheltering them. If they're actually running from danger, they'll be glad just to be out of the bombing and killing. That seems reasonable to me and I'm pretty sure I said that earlier. Most people's feelings about this aren't polarized to one side; nor, are they polarized to the other side. Most look for compromise somewhere in the middle.
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