midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 4, 2015 13:10:51 GMT -5
That was my thought as well, Mmhmm (I saw this post last night, but then I fell asleep) . I deal with this at work regularly. Right now we have someone alleging they are being denied access to a service due to their race. This person went to the media. We can't tell the reporter "we're not denying the request because this person is black, we're denying it because s/he did X, Y, Z." As a result, the stories that have been reported bear only a passing resemblance to what actually happened, because only one of the two parties involved is allowed to speak about it. And of course they're going to do so in a way that makes them seem as sympathetic as possible. (This is why I take all the "CPS took my 12yo away for playing in the yard after school" stories with a giant grain of salt.) Seems likely that the linked thread is a similar situation. I'd be reluctant to pass judgment without knowing more. I could be wrong, but I suspect that there were more severe mental issues at play.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 4, 2015 13:55:08 GMT -5
I'll dare point out that even if there are "more severe mental issues at play", it's still an example of weapons being confiscated from a law abiding citizen. I also recall an article AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP (or maybe Shooby) posted about a vet having his weapons confiscated after being flagged as a potential terrorist due to his travel patterns. I can't find that one though. Even you have to agree we live in an era where the government can snap its fingers and divest law-abiding citizens of various "inalienable rights" for any one of a hundred reasons. The legal infrastructure to do so is still in development, but progress marches on year by year.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 4, 2015 14:30:35 GMT -5
OK, I'll amend my earlier statement to "... the law that REMOVES a legal weapon from your possession while you are a law abiding citizen free from mental illness or other infirmities that are likely to render gun ownership dangerous."
Nothing has changed. For the last nearly 250 years, the government has had the power to supersede certain rights if it can articulate a compelling enough reason to do so.
You have a First Amendment right to free speech -- unless you're yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The government has deemed the potential danger to public safety enough to outweigh your right to free speech in that situation.
The government could just as justifiably deem the (potential) public danger presented by an armed mentally ill person enough to outweigh that person's Second Amendment right to bear arms. They've already done this with felons.
But that type of analysis is exactly what the Constitution envisioned... it's not some new liberal conspiracy to deprive people of their inalienable rights.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 4, 2015 14:42:44 GMT -5
I'll dare point out that even if there are "more severe mental issues at play", it's still an example of weapons being confiscated from a law abiding citizen. I also recall an article AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP (or maybe Shooby) posted about a vet having his weapons confiscated after being flagged as a potential terrorist due to his travel patterns. I can't find that one though. Even you have to agree we live in an era where the government can snap its fingers and divest law-abiding citizens of various "inalienable rights" for any one of a hundred reasons. The legal infrastructure to do so is still in development, but progress marches on year by year. Not if those "more severe mental issues at play" involved threatening violence (with or without a gun), erratic, violent behaviors, etc. This person would not be considered "law abiding" and would have been subject to the law if said behavior had come before the courts. If it didn't come before the courts but there is evidence it happened, there is good reason to ensure this person does not have a gun. We don't know. I think that's the point. We don't have enough information.
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Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Sept 4, 2015 14:52:59 GMT -5
My God...where do you people live? I still forget to lock my doors at night.
Guns are bad, but it is not that simple. It is about poverty and desperation.
I know, we can all point fingers...that black kid with no father and no moral compass. Yeah, that is mostly true. So what is everyone going to to about it?
No human being is born violent.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 4, 2015 22:27:53 GMT -5
My God...where do you people live? I still forget to lock my doors at night. Guns are bad, but it is not that simple. It is about poverty and desperation. I know, we can all point fingers...that black kid with no father and no moral compass. Yeah, that is mostly true. So what is everyone going to to about it? No human being is born violent. No human is born a racist either. We have this screwed up need to be part of a team- it is in our genes. There are just some horrible teams out there.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 5, 2015 0:37:48 GMT -5
My God...where do you people live? I still forget to lock my doors at night. Guns are bad, but it is not that simple. It is about poverty and desperation. I know, we can all point fingers...that black kid with no father and no moral compass. Yeah, that is mostly true. So what is everyone going to to about it? No human being is born violent. No human is born a racist either. no, you have to be carefully taught.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Sept 8, 2015 22:29:38 GMT -5
OK, I'll amend my earlier statement to "... the law that REMOVES a legal weapon from your possession while you are a law abiding citizen free from mental illness or other infirmities that are likely to render gun ownership dangerous." Nothing has changed. For the last nearly 250 years, the government has had the power to supersede certain rights if it can articulate a compelling enough reason to do so. You have a First Amendment right to free speech -- unless you're yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. The government has deemed the potential danger to public safety enough to outweigh your right to free speech in that situation. The government could just as justifiably deem the (potential) public danger presented by an armed mentally ill person enough to outweigh that person's Second Amendment right to bear arms. They've already done this with felons. But that type of analysis is exactly what the Constitution envisioned... it's not some new liberal conspiracy to deprive people of their inalienable rights. You're right. It's actually a very old, well-documented liberal conspiracy to deprive people of their inalienable rights.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 8, 2015 23:50:41 GMT -5
This country is a murderous shithole because of the 2nd amendment. Time to grow up.
Every day in the USA you can count on multiple deaths by gunfire.
Edited- had several thoughts on my mind- had read earlier about how the US stacks up against other countries with maternity leave and vacation time and it was terrible- so it looks to me a rotten deal that we are so anti-socialism and pro-gun.
What a horrible trade- have all the guns you want and we get to work you to death because the gun party is the business party.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 13:16:32 GMT -5
This country is a murderous shithole because of the 2nd amendment. Time to grow up. Every day in the USA you can count on multiple deaths by gunfire. Edited- had several thoughts on my mind- had read earlier about how the US stacks up against other countries with maternity leave and vacation time and it was terrible- so it looks to me a rotten deal that we are so anti-socialism and pro-gun. What a horrible trade- have all the guns you want and we get to work you to death because the gun party is the business party. Time to leave this "murderous shithole", as guns are a big part of it's culture. Let me know when you find your Utopian country of choice. We'll talk about it's virtues.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 18:21:40 GMT -5
This country is a murderous shithole because of the 2nd amendment. Time to grow up. Every day in the USA you can count on multiple deaths by gunfire.Edited- had several thoughts on my mind- had read earlier about how the US stacks up against other countries with maternity leave and vacation time and it was terrible- so it looks to me a rotten deal that we are so anti-socialism and pro-gun. What a horrible trade- have all the guns you want and we get to work you to death because the gun party is the business party. How many of those are due to a gun, sitting on a table or in a holster, going off by itself? Stop blaming the guns, start blaming the shooters.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 10, 2015 18:32:35 GMT -5
This country is a murderous shithole because of the 2nd amendment. Time to grow up. Every day in the USA you can count on multiple deaths by gunfire.Edited- had several thoughts on my mind- had read earlier about how the US stacks up against other countries with maternity leave and vacation time and it was terrible- so it looks to me a rotten deal that we are so anti-socialism and pro-gun. What a horrible trade- have all the guns you want and we get to work you to death because the gun party is the business party. How many of those are due to a gun, sitting on a table or in a holster, going off by itself? Stop blaming the guns, start blaming the shooters. ok, let's say we blame the shooters. what policies can be implemented to reduce gun violence if that is your approach?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 18:38:43 GMT -5
How many of those are due to a gun, sitting on a table or in a holster, going off by itself? Stop blaming the guns, start blaming the shooters. ok, let's say we blame the shooters. what policies can be implemented to reduce gun violence if that is your approach? After fixing your question... No clue. But stop worrying about the gun. Worry about the humans with them. Guns aren't the problem. People are. If guns weren't available, pipe-bombs would be the weapon. If pipe-bombs weren't available some other way to inflict massive damage would be. It's not the weapons that are the problem... it's the users OF the weapons.
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Artemis Windsong
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Post by Artemis Windsong on Sept 10, 2015 18:41:28 GMT -5
11 YR OLD SHOOTS ILLEGALS!!!!!
BUTTE, MONTANA
Shotgun preteen vs. Illegal alien Home Invaders.
Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower "home-alone" 11-year-old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.
It seems the two crooks didn't know two things:
They were in Montana.
Patricia had been a clay-shooting champion since she was nine.
Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.
Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee-crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.
When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive.
It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim there, 50-year-old David 0'Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest.
Do you ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news?
An 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended her home and herself against two murderous, illegal immigrants and she wins.
She is still alive.
Now THAT is Gun Control!
Thought for the day: Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist.
'I like this kind of e-mail! American citizens defending themselves and their homes
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 10, 2015 18:47:54 GMT -5
ok, let's say we blame the shooters. what policies can be implemented to reduce gun violence if that is your approach? After fixing your question... No clue. But stop worrying about the gun. Worry about the humans with them. Guns aren't the problem. People are. If guns weren't available, pipe-bombs would be the weapon. If pipe-bombs weren't available some other way to inflict massive damage would be. It's not the weapons that are the problem... it's the users OF the weapons. my question didn't need fixing. there is not enough of all other kinds of violence to concern me. but thanks- having no clue is 'an answer'. other people will have different ones.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 18:49:48 GMT -5
I take that last post back... I do have a couple of ideas... but the anti-gun people would NEVER go for them.
Mandatory "open-carry" would be nice. Change the legal system to "death by equal act of violence" in cases where death was caused by use of a weapon (only upon conviction by confession or irrefutable proof). Change the non-death penalty punishment to life without parole for even USING a weapon in a crime (whether the weapon is actually "fired"/"triggered" or not).
And... to help make room in prisons and allow for extra enforcement personnel against crimes of violence, for the temporary influx that will occur until criminals realize what a bad idea violence with a weapon REALLY is, and that stiff penalties WILL be enforced... decriminalize drug possession and use and decriminalize prostitution.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 10, 2015 19:11:32 GMT -5
I take that last post back... I do have a couple of ideas... but the anti-gun people would NEVER go for them. Mandatory "open-carry" would be nice. Change the legal system to "death by equal act of violence" in cases where death was caused by use of a weapon (only upon conviction by confession or irrefutable proof). Change the non-death penalty punishment to life without parole for even USING a weapon in a crime (whether the weapon is actually "fired"/"triggered" or not). And... to help make room in prisons and allow for extra enforcement personnel against crimes of violence, for the temporary influx that will occur until criminals realize what a bad idea violence with a weapon REALLY is, and that stiff penalties WILL be enforced... decriminalize drug possession and use and decriminalize prostitution. do you have any evidence that any of that would work, because i am pretty sure it has all been tried.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 19:22:56 GMT -5
I take that last post back... I do have a couple of ideas... but the anti-gun people would NEVER go for them. Mandatory "open-carry" would be nice. Change the legal system to "death by equal act of violence" in cases where death was caused by use of a weapon (only upon conviction by confession or irrefutable proof). Change the non-death penalty punishment to life without parole for even USING a weapon in a crime (whether the weapon is actually "fired"/"triggered" or not). And... to help make room in prisons and allow for extra enforcement personnel against crimes of violence, for the temporary influx that will occur until criminals realize what a bad idea violence with a weapon REALLY is, and that stiff penalties WILL be enforced... decriminalize drug possession and use and decriminalize prostitution. do you have any evidence that any of that would work, because i am pretty sure it has all been tried. People "gunning up" in Kennesaw worked/works pretty well (they aren't required to open carry, but ownership IS required by law, and open carry is permissible and often taken advantage of). As to the punishments? Making them shorter and easier hasn't worked... so why not give it a shot?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 10, 2015 19:26:26 GMT -5
do you have any evidence that any of that would work, because i am pretty sure it has all been tried. People "gunning up" in Kennesaw worked/works pretty well (they aren't required to open carry, but ownership IS required by law, and open carry is permissible and often taken advantage of). does it? link, please.As to the punishments? Making them shorter and easier hasn't worked... so why not give it a shot? um....punishments have been increasing for over 30 years, Richard. don't know where you are getting this "shortening" stuff. (edit- but i would agree that it hasn't worked. )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 20:16:06 GMT -5
People "gunning up" in Kennesaw worked/works pretty well (they aren't required to open carry, but ownership IS required by law, and open carry is permissible and often taken advantage of). As to the punishments? Making them shorter and easier hasn't worked... so why not give it a shot? um....punishments have been increasing for over 30 years, Richard. don't know where you are getting this "shortening" stuff. (edit- but i would agree that it hasn't worked. ) Parole shortens them. Having cable, workout equipment, comfortable A/C & heat, et cetera makes them easier.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 10, 2015 21:31:54 GMT -5
This country is a murderous shithole because of the 2nd amendment. Time to grow up. Every day in the USA you can count on multiple deaths by gunfire. Edited- had several thoughts on my mind- had read earlier about how the US stacks up against other countries with maternity leave and vacation time and it was terrible- so it looks to me a rotten deal that we are so anti-socialism and pro-gun. What a horrible trade- have all the guns you want and we get to work you to death because the gun party is the business party. Time to leave this "murderous shithole", as guns are a big part of it's culture. Let me know when you find your Utopian country of choice. We'll talk about it's virtues. Why should I not try and make my country a better one?
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Sept 10, 2015 21:36:39 GMT -5
11 YR OLD SHOOTS ILLEGALS!!!!! BUTTE, MONTANA Shotgun preteen vs. Illegal alien Home Invaders. Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably believed they would easily overpower "home-alone" 11-year-old Patricia Harrington after her father had left their two-story home. It seems the two crooks didn't know two things: They were in Montana. Patricia had been a clay-shooting champion since she was nine. Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed his 12-gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun. Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the first to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee-crouch aim. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals. When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before medical help could arrive. It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45-caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. The victim there, 50-year-old David 0'Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab wounds to the chest. Do you ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC, CNN, or ABC news? An 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended her home and herself against two murderous, illegal immigrants and she wins. She is still alive. Now THAT is Gun Control! Thought for the day: Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an 'unlicensed pharmacist. 'I like this kind of e-mail! American citizens defending themselves and their homes I think I read about this on Snopes like two years ago- complete fabrication. Yep: www.snopes.com/politics/crime/homeinvasion.aspResorting to making up stories to bolster a position is clear evidence that the position is in trouble.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 10, 2015 21:53:31 GMT -5
um....punishments have been increasing for over 30 years, Richard. don't know where you are getting this "shortening" stuff. (edit- but i would agree that it hasn't worked. ) Parole shortens them. Having cable, workout equipment, comfortable A/C & heat, et cetera makes them easier. prison conditions have been declining the entire time, as well, so your A/C comment is also way off the mark. i will, however, admit, that paroles have increased- for NON-VIOLENT OFFENDORS. which brings us full circle. i was not talking about people who wave guns around for fun, in case that wasn't clear.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2015 23:22:07 GMT -5
Parole shortens them. Having cable, workout equipment, comfortable A/C & heat, et cetera makes them easier. prison conditions have been declining the entire time, as well, so your A/C comment is also way off the mark. i will, however, admit, that paroles have increased- for NON-VIOLENT OFFENDORS. which brings us full circle. i was not talking about people who wave guns around for fun, in case that wasn't clear. I'm talking about guns used in the commission of a crime... whether they are actually fired or not. As to the bolded.... really? Huh... I guess these stories don't know what they are talking about (just the first 3 links that popped up in my Google search of " new prisons being built cable"): Prisons rush to install toilets, cable TV before new inmates arrive("Cable TV" right in the title!) Arizona Opens New $50M Supermax Prison; New Report Denounces State’s Use of Solitary Confinement"At the head of each bed are electrical and cable outlets, which can be used for a television." Who's paying for cable TV in Vt. prison cells?"Chittenden's latest project-- adding televisions to individual cells. WCAX News has learned the prison recently purchased 25 flat-screen TVs." And while some older prisons don't have A/C, newer ones being built are being built with it (no real good links for that though... but a Google search did turn up that no A/C is mostly a problem in older facilities).
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2015 0:04:29 GMT -5
prison conditions have been declining the entire time, as well, so your A/C comment is also way off the mark. i will, however, admit, that paroles have increased- for NON-VIOLENT OFFENDORS. which brings us full circle. i was not talking about people who wave guns around for fun, in case that wasn't clear. I'm talking about guns used in the commission of a crime... whether they are actually fired or not. As to the bolded.... really? Huh... yeah, really. maybe not in Indiana. but absolutely. conditions in California are worse than Northern Mexico.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 0:23:29 GMT -5
I'm not in Indiana...
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 11, 2015 0:25:58 GMT -5
I'm not in Indiana... i never said you were. btw- i spent a Summer in BAXTER. i know the state, somewhat. much better than Indiana, actually.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2015 1:40:03 GMT -5
I'm not in Indiana... i never said you were. btw- i spent a Summer in BAXTER. i know the state, somewhat. much better than Indiana, actually. The " yeah, really. maybe not in Indiana." that you posted kind of threw me... since I'd never mentioned Indiana.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 16, 2015 14:32:51 GMT -5
Time to leave this "murderous shithole", as guns are a big part of it's culture. Let me know when you find your Utopian country of choice. We'll talk about it's virtues. Why should I not try and make my country a better one? Because it's only in your opinion that's what makes it better. You might get some push back from the other side of the fence. How's that search for utopia going ? Once you find that utopian country of your choice we can model the United States after it and we will become a utopia also.
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 16, 2015 16:32:48 GMT -5
i never said you were. btw- i spent a Summer in BAXTER. i know the state, somewhat. much better than Indiana, actually. The " yeah, really. maybe not in Indiana." that you posted kind of threw me... since I'd never mentioned Indiana. i have trouble reading your name. HALF the time i read it as RichardTnIn. dyslexia. edit: nice ass cover tho, right?
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