mroped
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Post by mroped on Aug 29, 2015 7:11:07 GMT -5
Switzerland I believe was the first country to introduce mandatory service and one of the very few to still maintain it at all times. That is one of the reasons nobody ever attacks them/invades them. Who cares about their neutrality when it comes to war? Hitler eyeballed it but upon assessment he was told that at least half of his fifteen divisions will be gone if he tries that. A risk too great when he planned on taking the rest of Europe.
Yes, they might have the highest number of weapons per capita but they are all trained and sane whereas in the U.S. anybody can buy a weapon that they have no clue what it does when fired not to mention that some of them are bought by "unbalanced" individuals to put it mildly.
The forever scream "the government will take our guns" is just a smoke screen for some to propagate hate and distrust towards our government and to maintain a tight hold on the minds of those that believe it. All sane and normal individuals in this country that have a shred of intelligence and common sens understand that that will never happen!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 29, 2015 7:36:11 GMT -5
I wonder if Switzerland has an "entitlement " mentality and is invaded by illegals? I wonder if their parents care more about their next check or fix than they do parenting their children? Animals take better care of their children than a fair amount of people do and the results are being seen more and more.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Aug 31, 2015 6:59:27 GMT -5
I wonder if Switzerland has an "entitlement " mentality and is invaded by illegals? I wonder if their parents care more about their next check or fix than they do parenting their children? Animals take better care of their children than a fair amount of people do and the results are being seen more and more. The Swiss has a very high number of immigrants - Those born within the EU account for 15 per cent of Switzerland’s population while in the UK it is only 4.19 per cent, much closer to the EU average of 3.45 per cent.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11190269/If-EU-migration-is-the-problem-Switzerland-and-Norway-are-not-the-answer.html
Those are the legal immigrants, don't know how many illegal immigrants wind up there. You might have heard about all the African and middle east refugees that are pushing their way into Europe right now. Europe has the same immigration problems the US has.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 31, 2015 7:32:26 GMT -5
Some countries protect their borders
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2015 9:53:11 GMT -5
Some countries protect their borders true. North Korea is very big on it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 31, 2015 15:16:42 GMT -5
I think a minimum sentence of 10 years in federal pound me in the ass prison for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm would pretty much take care of it. There might be a few folks who take their chances, but I bet most folks would register their guns. To be clear I'm saying 10 years minimum just for the unregistered gun, even if it's not used in a crime and they aren't charged with anything else. Not that we would ever do that but my hypothetical is one answer to yours. That would undoubtedly raise other constitutional problems, like "cruel and unusual punishment" claims.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 31, 2015 15:17:44 GMT -5
It always confuses me that the same people who decry the war on drugs as a failure want to start a very similar "war on guns." All you'll do by taking away guns from law biding citizens is create a black market for guns.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2015 15:34:23 GMT -5
It always confuses me that the same people who decry the war on drugs as a failure want to start a very similar "war on guns." All you'll do by taking away guns from law biding citizens is create a black market for guns. yeah, not me. you get your guns, i get my drugs. that seems fair.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 31, 2015 18:13:48 GMT -5
Just to stir the pot. (I came across this earlier today and immediately thought of Paul.) Anti-Gun Rights Fascists Fail AgainHe does raise a good point that none of the gun control measures currently on the table would have prevented this shooting, which is why the outcry has died so quickly, he reasons. The article is a mordantly satisfying read if you're anti-gun-control.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Aug 31, 2015 21:35:29 GMT -5
It always confuses me that the same people who decry the war on drugs as a failure want to start a very similar "war on guns." All you'll do by taking away guns from law biding citizens is create a black market for guns. Do they? Mighty broad brush you paint with. The lessons of the Volstead Act are quite clear- no matter the subject. You ban something, you create criminals, you create criminal organizations, you create gangsters. I can't fathom the need to have any gun- or really a handgun (the major killer in the USA) as intense as the need to drink or do drugs- but for some people I guess.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 31, 2015 21:59:51 GMT -5
Just to stir the pot. (I came across this earlier today and immediately thought of Paul.) Anti-Gun Rights Fascists Fail AgainHe does raise a good point that none of the gun control measures currently on the table would have prevented this shooting, which is why the outcry has died so quickly, he reasons. The article is a mordantly satisfying read if you're anti-gun-control. i made it as far as the word Democrat.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 1, 2015 7:57:35 GMT -5
Just to stir the pot. (I came across this earlier today and immediately thought of Paul.) Anti-Gun Rights Fascists Fail AgainHe does raise a good point that none of the gun control measures currently on the table would have prevented this shooting, which is why the outcry has died so quickly, he reasons. The article is a mordantly satisfying read if you're anti-gun-control. i made it as far as the word Democrat. Oh yeah. You consider leaving off the "ic" to be a pejorative, IIRC. I lost a bet with myself. I bet that you'd reply to the post with "Utter rubbish.", "Utter nonsense.", or "Utter BS." sans explanation, or a comment about how VA bungling started under the Bush administration. You're not pro-gun-control anyway, are you?
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 1, 2015 8:02:19 GMT -5
i made it as far as the word Democrat. Oh yeah. You consider leaving off the "ic" to be a pejorative, IIRC. I lost a bet with myself. I bet that you'd reply to the post with "Utter rubbish.", "Utter nonsense.", or "Utter BS." sans explanation, or a comment about how VA bungling started under the Bush administration. You're not pro-gun-control anyway, are you? He already said he is if he gets his drugs..................
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Sept 1, 2015 11:14:31 GMT -5
i made it as far as the word Democrat. Oh yeah. You consider leaving off the "ic" to be a pejorative, IIRC. I lost a bet with myself. I bet that you'd reply to the post with "Utter rubbish.", "Utter nonsense.", or "Utter BS." sans explanation, or a comment about how VA bungling started under the Bush administration. You're not pro-gun-control anyway, are you? no. i use the 2nd amendment as a bargaining chip for legalizing drugs.
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gacpa
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Post by gacpa on Sept 1, 2015 15:23:10 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the gun lobbyists, manufacturers, dealers and the NRA wrap "the right to own a gun" around the fact they make a lot of money off these weapons. They don't care who gets shot by them as long as they make their money. The gun culture needs to come up with some suggestions to stop crazy people from owning guns before our government does it for them.
I really don't have a problem with sane people choosing to own a gun to hunt or for their protection or whatever legitimate reason. But now we have a country where any crazy person has a right to carry a gun. As a result, kids are not safe at school, people are not safe at work, the post office, the movies, or the grocery store.
Where do we draw the line? Flame away people, we have to do something about the gun violence in this country. After each shooting, I used to think, "This is it, the government will do something now to stop this." Nothing happens.
Besides "rounding up all the guns", does anyone have any common sense ideas on how to protect the right to bear arms and the right citizens have not to be shot down in the middle of their day?
I just read SDG's post. Some of his ideas might be a good start.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 1, 2015 17:16:00 GMT -5
Sometimes I think the gun lobbyists, manufacturers, dealers and the NRA wrap "the right to own a gun" around the fact they make a lot of money off these weapons. They don't care who gets shot by them as long as they make their money. The gun culture needs to come up with some suggestions to stop crazy people from owning guns before our government does it for them. I really don't have a problem with sane people choosing to own a gun to hunt or for their protection or whatever legitimate reason. But now we have a country where any crazy person has a right to carry a gun. As a result, kids are not safe at school, people are not safe at work, the post office, the movies, or the grocery store. Where do we draw the line? Flame away people, we have to do something about the gun violence in this country. After each shooting, I used to think, "This is it, the government will do something now to stop this." Nothing happens. Besides "rounding up all the guns", does anyone have any common sense ideas on how to protect the right to bear arms and the right citizens have not to be shot down in the middle of their day? I just read SDG's post. Some of his ideas might be a good start. Why start with the belief that "we have to do something about the gun violence in this country"? If you can't put the genie back into the bottle and there are no sensible policies to implement, you most certainly don't have to do something about gun violence. Guns are a part of American culture. The right to bear arms is enshrined in the US Constitution. The document was engineered this way specifically as a defense against government tyranny. Time after time the courts have upheld the strictest definition of "shall not be infringed". An armed citizenry ready to take on Big Brother when he inevitably goes mad with power is the horse your national founders bet on. Just as importantly: it's foolish to establish policy based on isolated national intrigues such as the latest crazed gunman shooting. These shootings account for only a tiny fraction of all gun violence, and policies implemented in vain attempts to stop them can have dire ramifications on a much larger scale.
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gacpa
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Post by gacpa on Sept 1, 2015 18:55:26 GMT -5
This is not the wild, wild west anymore. Innocent people are dying everyday because crazy people are running loose with guns they should not have.
Just as we have rules and laws allowing people to operate a motor vehicle, we should have rules and laws for owning a weapon. Training, background checks, and registration are good places to start.
I have no problem with people owning a gun, I just want them to be responsible and held accountable for their ownership of a weapon-similar to the process we go through to license, insure, and register a driver and their vehicle. And yes, it will cost money, but we have to stop the gun violence.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Sept 1, 2015 19:06:42 GMT -5
This is not the wild, wild west anymore. Innocent people are dying everyday because crazy people are running loose with guns they should not have. Just as we have rules and laws allowing people to operate a motor vehicle, we should have rules and laws for owning a weapon. Training, background checks, and registration are good places to start. I have no problem with people owning a gun, I just want them to be responsible and held accountable for their ownership of a weapon-similar to the process we go through to license, insure, and register a driver and their vehicle. And yes, it will cost money, but we have to stop the gun violence. Your statement about uninsured motorists- it ain't working. That's why we pay for uninsured motorists, because they don't. Laws do not mean anything to the lawless.
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gacpa
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Post by gacpa on Sept 2, 2015 13:23:12 GMT -5
I agree that laws do not mean anything to the lawless.
I will try to re-state my thoughts:
Rights come with responsibilities. If people want to carry a gun (or drive a car), then we have to take some steps to make sure that others are reasonably safe while we exercise our "rights". That is why we have drivers ed, licensing, and insurance. We have a system that attempts to hold people accountable who exercise their right to get out and drive. It is not perfect, and does not always work. As you pointed out, people will get out and drive drunk, without a license and without insurance in a car that is not mechanically safe.
But we do have a framework to hold people responsible for their actions behind the wheel. We need something similar for gun owners, so that the ones who are potential crazies are flagged. We need some mechanism in place to help us see them coming and to deal with them before more people die for nothing.
I think that is all I have to say about it.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 3, 2015 0:30:00 GMT -5
I agree that laws do not mean anything to the lawless. I will try to re-state my thoughts: Rights come with responsibilities. If people want to carry a gun (or drive a car), then we have to take some steps to make sure that others are reasonably safe while we exercise our "rights". That is why we have drivers ed, licensing, and insurance. We have a system that attempts to hold people accountable who exercise their right to get out and drive. It is not perfect, and does not always work. As you pointed out, people will get out and drive drunk, without a license and without insurance in a car that is not mechanically safe. But we do have a framework to hold people responsible for their actions behind the wheel. We need something similar for gun owners, so that the ones who are potential crazies are flagged. We need some mechanism in place to help us see them coming and to deal with them before more people die for nothing. I think that is all I have to say about it. There is a framework, it is the present day gun control, does it work perfect? NO, but I know far more people drive drunk than go around shooting people. I have heard it stated that one car in ten the person is legally drunk, Do the laws on driving completely stop that? NO.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 13:35:55 GMT -5
I think a minimum sentence of 10 years in federal pound me in the ass prison for anyone caught with an unregistered firearm would pretty much take care of it. There might be a few folks who take their chances, but I bet most folks would register their guns. To be clear I'm saying 10 years minimum just for the unregistered gun, even if it's not used in a crime and they aren't charged with anything else. Not that we would ever do that but my hypothetical is one answer to yours. That's the problem with hypotheticals, they're never realistic.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 13:39:08 GMT -5
It seems that the American public at large picks and chooses what laws to abide by. Remember the discussion about the "illegals"? The general consensus amongst a certain part of the populous is that they should be thrown in jail and deported. What if a law is passed saying that if you don't register your guns or do a background check when you privately aquire one we will throw your ass in jail? I presume that wouldn't work due to the common "it is my second amendment" shpeal. The fact of the matter is that there is a law that require all guns to be registered even when they are inherited and such. Do we pick and choose what laws to abide by? I view the "second amendment shpeal" the same as the rest of the bill of rights.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 13:43:41 GMT -5
This is the question that the Utopians can never answer. Because that is the only way to do it. Military searching, interrogating, confiscating, forcibly removing, house to house, car to car, person to person, etc. And all is done with the threat of force. (ie; point of gun)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2015 13:47:58 GMT -5
Spoken by an illegal, it speaks volumes. You have no respect for the law of this country but twist to suit your purposes. Then you bad mouth its policies. Also typical biting the hand that feeds you mentality. I should be offended but for some reason I'm not! I was just pointing out that we choose what laws to conform to and what laws not to care about. Everybody does it, legal or illegal. Just wanna make sure that you understand this as not to bring it up again: I am a legal citizen of this country! Did I enter illegally? Yes and no matter what there would never be an excuse for that. However, once in I conformed with the laws of the country including paying taxes. Also, I own guns and I support everyone's second amendment rights. My guns are legally purchased following the letter of the law- background check with each and every one of them- but if the chance arises and I find a gun that I want or like on a private venue I'll do just what everybody else does and buy the gun without a background check. this will always happen no mater what the liberals or anybody else wants. Just the same as the illegal immigration. Will always happen no mater how many miles of fence you put up or how many hands you put on patrol. There will always be a way around it. People are creative and find a challenge in "breaking the law" You do realize that when your background check is complete, the data is erased. Your guns are not "registered".
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Sept 3, 2015 13:55:14 GMT -5
It always confuses me that the same people who decry the war on drugs as a failure want to start a very similar "war on guns." All you'll do by taking away guns from law biding citizens is create a black market for guns. I Believe that even the most progressive gun control law/rule doesn't seek to remove weapons from the law abiding citizens. We just call them gun control because is easier to attract support. Show me a conservative article that explains in detail that the gun laws are not intending to take your guns away but rather limit acces to weapons for the people that should not legally have them such as children, violent criminal offenders and so on. Also, I would like to see if anyone can find the law that REMOVES a legal weapon from your possession while you are a law abiding citizen. Crying wolf it doesn't always work. I own guns and love them and truly believe that removing all weapons from the law abiding citizenry in this country would be impossible in the current climate. Regardless what NRA and most conservatives think, there are plenty of liberals that support the Second amendment.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Sept 3, 2015 14:46:26 GMT -5
I'd like to see that law too. I have been hearing about it for years!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 3, 2015 21:07:32 GMT -5
The police can do it any time they want, Possible evidence of a crime , a threat to your self or others ,and many others even if there is nothing wrong.
Then it is up to you to retrieve it. if they want you may never get it back, "continued investigation".
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Sept 3, 2015 21:11:31 GMT -5
Want proof? Sheriff Joe is coming up for his contempt of court charges, more to be added, failure to return items that were confiscated from illegal stops.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 3, 2015 21:12:31 GMT -5
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Sept 4, 2015 12:52:16 GMT -5
I didn't read the whole thread but I'd like to see the results of the medical exam. Unfortunately (in this case), HIPAA makes that impossible; however, it is available as evidence in a trial - just not to the public. There may be more to this than can be discussed in a public venue. Not saying there is. Just recognizing we don't have all the data.
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