happyscooter
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 19, 2011 8:34:21 GMT -5
Just like the first job I took I was told what to wear, that I had to work all night, week-ends, holidays, couldn't go to the bathroom except on my break (which was an assigned time), couldn't take personal calls while I was at work, etc... If I didn't like it, I didn't have to work there. You take the good with the bad. I am not in agreement with the 'war on terror' that our government officials have gotten us into. But there is no draft. These recruits know this when they sign up for the military.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 19, 2011 10:52:49 GMT -5
qofcc-there are too many people who join the military and then say 'oh, I didn't know I was going to have to fight.' What did they think? They could just train every day for 20-30 years, get free schooling, medical care, free/discounted housing, 3 meals a day, hike in the rain, learn to clean guns and get a good pension when their time was up?
I don't disagree with you, I'm just saying that we've pointed out that our country has a need for a trained military to defend ourselves in case of attack, but under the current system, anyone who joins knows that they're going to be required to do what they're told whether or not they agree with it and that they don't have the option to say no and walk away without worrying about really bad things happening to them. I can't think of any other profession where that is the case.
It's kind of like that book they make you read in high school english (I can't remember the name of it) where the guy goes to get his drivers license and they show him this awful movie about how driving kills people and that anyone who watches the movie and still wants to get their license is crazy.
I'm just saying that the current system seems to be outdated and should be re-evaluated and I find it strange that there doesn't seem to be anyone pushing for that. The military does a lot of good and valuable things, they just have a very strange value system and management style.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 19, 2011 12:44:23 GMT -5
Where do you think the value system and management style is out of line in other words.
Well, the whole "we don't care what you think, do what we say when we say it or we'll make your life hell" is at the top of the list. I think most other organizations have evolved to the point where they say "we value your opinion and we want you to do this and this is why, but if you don't want to do it, you're free to leave"
I have a friend who was a military wife in Germany in the 80's. She supported his career choice and they were both happy with the situation. It came about that they re-assigned his job duties to work a different shift that started in the middle of the night and he was having trouble adjusting his internal clock and he arrived late to work a few times. Yes, it was his responsibility to get himself out of bed and if it took more than just an alarm clock, then it was his responsibility to figure out what it would take and correct it. He was definitely in the wrong for being late for work. They both figured that he there would be consequences for being late, but they had no idea how severe. As a punishment, they told him that he would no longer be able to live with his wife, he would have to move into the barracks with the single men so that a drill Sargent could wake him up when it was time to go on shift. It seemed a little harsh, but not terribly unreasonable to do that for a period of time, although it does seem that they should have told him that would be a possible consequence. Then, after they moved him, they told them that since he was living in the barracks, she was no longer eligible to live in military housing and they evicted her. I can see that it would have been reasonable to dock his pay for the extra housing cost, but punishing a man's family is crossing a line that I don't think they have the right to cross. There she was, a young girl living in a foreign country where she didn't speak the language and she had to go find a job and a place to live because they wouldn't transport her home and they didn't have the money for a plane ticket (back then it was several thousand dollars). After a month of this, she told him that she couldn't take it anymore and he was going to have to fix it because a man's first responsibility is to his wife, not his employer. They wouldn't let her move back on base and they refused to reassign him or let him unenlist or transport her home to her family. Then he found out that one of the other soldiers had gotten a DWI and they gave him a dishonorable discharge and transported him and his wife back to the states. So my friend's husband went and got a bottle of liquor and borrowed a car and drove around waving the bottle out the window until he found a local police officer to arrest him and it worked and they were sent home.
My stepson joined the reserves in 2005. So far, he has been very lucky not to be sent overseas because people in his unit were deployed twice since he joined and he was chosen to stay behind, but he knows it's just a matter of time before he goes. He didn't ask any of his family for our opinions before he joined, he just went out and did it and told us about it afterwords. I'm not the only one who thinks he was foolish, his mom & grandmothers think he made a mistake too but we realize there's nothing we can do about it. He's still happy with his decision and he doesn't feel like he has any moral dilemma to overcome because his job is to string network cable, not shoot people and he still firmly believes that he's not going to be asked to do anything outside of his job duties and he's not worried about his safety. I think he's really naive.
His Dad and I went to his basic training "graduation ceremony" along with his mom and her parents. When we arrived the day before, we were allowed to join him on base and he was really nervous the whole time because he was told that he was responsible for our behavior and if we did anything wrong, he would be punished. They gave us this very confusing map and we made a wrong turn and ended up on a one-way access road that exited the base. There was no way to turn around without going about 100 yards past the line on the ground indicating the exit of the base and making a u-turn into the entrance. He started panicking until we let him out of the car before the line and he walked up to the guards with his hands in the air and explained that we made a wrong turn and needed to turn around. When we came back through, they searched us and made a big deal about it, but whatever. The next morning, we arrived at the spot we were told to go to for the ceremony, 1 hour before as directed. After waiting outside the locked doors for about 20 minutes, someone came and told us that the ceremony had been moved to another building due to a scheduling conflict. I wonder how an organization that can't organize a simple graduation ceremony could be expected to properly organize a war, but whatever. When we arrived at the other building, there was a group of women selling refreshments and t-shirts to raise money to support the wives and children of military personnel who were in need. I thought that was really strange. Shouldn't their husbands be making enough money that they're not in need? but whatever. Then we were given instructions in a really condescending tone about remaining in our seats and being removed from the building if we became in any way disruptive. Then they gave speeches about how proud and grateful to them we should be that when our sons and husbands arrived there that they were pretty much worthless and that now that they're done with them they are real men. Nowhere did they say thank you to the mothers and wives who supported their sons and husbands in their decision to join. Then we were told that we could go to the barracks and pick up our family members. When we arrived, it was raining and muddy and everyone was standing on the sidewalk and road in front of the building. Then 2 officers with guns came out and told the crowd to step away from the building and go stand in the muddy area across the street. They made us wait in the weather for about 1/2 hour and then they started sending solders out in pairs of 2 to pick up trash outside the building. There was a woman with 5 little kids there to pick up her son. When he came out they all started jumping up and down and screaming for their brother and when he ignored them they screamed louder and the little one started crying. As he turned to go back in the building he gave them a little wave. There was silence for a while, then they marched the guy back out of the building and had him do those push ups where you clap in the middle and yell "thanks mom" after each one as punishment for waving to his mother. I was furious and was going to say something about it and a woman came up to me and said she was their for her brother and that her husband was in the army too and that this is just something that they do to put the families in their place and I need to keep my mouth shut or they'll take it out on my stepson. After we left, we stopped at KFC for lunch and I asked my stepson if he would like to drive part of the way home. He said that he couldn't because he wasn't allowed to drive until he had completed all of his training because he's a valuable piece of military property and they don't want him to be damaged. I said that if you signed a contract that says you won't drive without permission then don't drive, but you're not their property, you're their employee. And he looked at me in all seriousness and said, no, I'm military property and they said they own me for the duration of my contract and if I don't do what they say, they'll put me in jail. I started talking to him about brainwashing and he got so scared that I was questioning their authority and was afraid the officer eating lunch in the booth next to us was going to drag him back because I was being disrespectful to the army that he took his lunch out to the car and refused to come back inside, so we left. He's calmed down since then, but I really don't have respect for an organization that treats their employees like that.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 19, 2011 12:52:09 GMT -5
That's a fascinating story.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 19, 2011 15:40:40 GMT -5
The rest seems incredibly blown out of proportion though. Like I said, maybe I've just had different experiences or something.
Proportion is in the eye of the beholder. I don't think these are examples of the military being evil, just that the people in power seem to think they have the right to be rude and arrogant and I think that's a poor way to run an organization. I realize that some people don't think it's a big deal when people are rude and arrogant in their use of power, but I'm really offended by that.
And maybe being offended by it is more of a girl thing, not a guy thing. My DH and my stepson's grandfather weren't nearly offended as the women in our group. They agreed that the people in charge were showing off that they were in charge and playing control games with the group because they could, but they said that's just how the military operates and we shouldn't be surprised or offended by it and that basic training is one big mind game and it's the way they keep control and they intended to scare the crap out of him and he'd snap out of it after a while and he did, of course.
And I realize what my friend's husband did was a little extreme, but they were teenagers with no money half way around the world from their families and they felt like they were being backed into a corner with no way out. I think a good employer would have found a way to keep the situation from escalating to that point. I think he should have been more careful about being on time for work, but I also think he made the right choice by choosing his wife over his employer when they pushed him. Yes, the dishonorable discharge is going to prevent him from ever getting security clearance, but he was never planning to be career military, he came back to the US and became a furniture salesman.
Circling back to the original point, I just think that trying to control people in that way is a poor management style and that most organizations have come around to the idea that empowering their employees and being respectful toward them yields better results for everyone in the long run.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 19, 2011 20:23:44 GMT -5
There are many different "management styles" for many different situations and the style that is nurtured in an office is not what you are going to see when you have to order men to their deaths. toughwords toughtimes!
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so1970
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Post by so1970 on Mar 20, 2011 8:01:16 GMT -5
to qofcc the reason men are punished for not waking up on time is that if he didn't wake up in a criticle life threatening situation someone dies. i realize he wasn't doing anything criticle at the time but he also wasn't there to relieve his replacement or to report to his post. there are consequenses for not fulfilling your duties . in the military your actions could result in death to others.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 20, 2011 8:33:32 GMT -5
to qofcc the reason men are punished for not waking up on time is that if he didn't wake up in a critical life threatening situation someone dies. i realize he wasn't doing anything critical at the time but he also wasn't there to relieve his replacement or to report to his post. there are consequences for not fulfilling your duties . in the military your actions could result in death to others.
I understand why it was important and agree that he should have been punished, I just think they crossed a line. Making him sleep in the barracks was reasonable, charging the couple additional housing fees if they occupied 2 spaces would have been reasonable, but evicting a teenage girl in a foreign country to try to fend for herself to get a job and find a place to live when she didn't speak the language was beyond the pale. I think even the mafia usually follows the rules that business is business and personal is personal and you don't mess with a guy's wife. BTW, she learned a valuable lesson about having an emergency fund after that.
There are many different "management styles" for many different situations and the style that is nurtured in an office is not what you are going to see when you have to order men to their deaths.
True, but if the guys volunteered and believe in what they're doing, they shouldn't need to be motivated by fear of repercussions to do their jobs, they'll AGREE to do what they're ASKED to do because they think it's right and necessary. Nobody's holding a gun at those men in Japan risking their lives with the reactors to save their country. Police officers and fire fighters and members of the clandestine services risk their lives every day and they're free to refuse orders and quit at any time.
200 years ago, indentured servitude and slavery were legal and acceptable business practices. 100 years ago, many miners and factory workers were in de facto slavery to their employers who controlled their homes and purchases at the company store. These methods of operation were accepted at the time, but as the world evolved, they are now obsolete and illegal and considered wrong. I just wonder how long it's going to take until we look back and say, remember when we used to just blindly follow orders and invaded other countries and blow stuff up without asking why or suggesting another alternative? Wow, what were we thinking?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 20, 2011 10:25:44 GMT -5
I agree, just resign but there's no need to be a jerk about it. Jobs like those are a dime a dozen.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Mar 20, 2011 10:37:09 GMT -5
qofcc,
The military is a different animal. Whenever you (possibly) have to send someone to their death, the whole game changes. A lot of what you experienced what just recruit bravado. It's part of the mind game they play with new recruits to instill discipline.
Your recruit was right about being "military property." That is essentially what they are during the terms of their enlistment contract. They tell you where to go and what to do. You can't wear what you want, you can't go within a certain distance from your post without approval from your commanding officer, among other restrictions.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Mar 20, 2011 11:50:16 GMT -5
I have a different point of view from many of you whose reference point is Vietnam or the Gulf War. As many of you know, my pop spent the Blitz in London and I dated a man whose father was a survivor of the Bataan Death March. Never underestimate how brutal war can be. I agree. That's why war should be avoided and be the very, very last option. And now we are in a different one ....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 20, 2011 15:55:50 GMT -5
Well, it'd be interesting to get an update from the OP but I wonder if we ever will?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 20, 2011 16:06:35 GMT -5
Maybe two weeks or so from now when hubby is deployed again?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 20, 2011 17:37:22 GMT -5
Who will care by then?
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pammy831
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Post by pammy831 on Apr 7, 2011 14:34:10 GMT -5
Of course I had to come back to let you all know what happened. I would've been back sooner but I had no idea the thread would go from like 1 1/2 pages when I left to 6 pages by the time I got back. Ok, here's what happened. My husband arrived home on Monday, March 14th. When I left work on Saturday, March 12th, the issue was still unresolved. The assistant manager told me that the manager would call me on Monday the 14th and let me know what she had decided about me having the time off. Well, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday rolled right along and finally the teller supervisor called me on Thursday. She told me that they agreed to let me have the Saturdays off and that they would just work short handed. I really felt as if they weren't going to call me back since they were so late in doing so and then just act dumbfounded when I didn't show up the following Saturday.
Ok, those were the results, and even though I haven't finished reading all of the responses, I just wanted to clarify 1 thing. I don't know how familiar any of you are with the R&R process, but trying to plan for it is like trying to plan for when a baby is born lol. You have an "idea" when it's going to be, but it could change at any second for a number of reasons. All I knew in advance is that he would be leaving Afghanistan on March 9th, so I was able to tell them that my time off would probably start anytime between the 12th and the 15th, depending on how long it took him to fly home. To get home from there, he has to take several flights, some military and some civilian, and anything could change those flights and delay him from getting home for days. So I did the best I could to tell them when the time would start.
As far as the political debate that has ensued, I'm not even going to get into it because it's a losing battle for everyone. We will never change each other's minds and I have learned that continuing to argue about such a polarizing topic usually doesn't get anyone anywhere when you're on such opposite sides of the fence.
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pammy831
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Post by pammy831 on Apr 7, 2011 14:37:24 GMT -5
Shoot, I forgot to add the alternate ending to the story lol. Our home in TN had been up for sale since October. By a total stroke of luck, we got an offer on it while my hubby happened to be home. We took 3 days to make a trip to TN from PA to get all the utilities and such turned back on so that the home inspections could be done. Since hubby has stabilization at Ft. Campbell from his last re-enlistment, we also put in a contract on a new house while we were done there. So, to throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing, I put in my 2 weeks notice on my 2nd day back to work because I am going to move to TN earlier than expected because of the whole house thing.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Apr 7, 2011 20:16:59 GMT -5
It sounds like everything is working out for you Pammy! So glad you spent time with DH!
I know a young man here who just got his "marching orders". I can't remember if he's going to Iraq or Afghanistan, but it's supposed to be for 12 months. In the meantime, he just got engaged, and his bride-to-be is attempting to plan the wedding, not knowing for sure if the groom will be able to come to his own wedding! Ouch!!
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Apr 8, 2011 1:10:53 GMT -5
Pammy, glad it all worked out well! Thanks a lot for the update, it was nice of you to come back and not leave us in the dark!
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pammy831
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Post by pammy831 on Apr 9, 2011 21:01:08 GMT -5
Thanks for commenting back all.
toughtimes - That's hilarious. I swear that's probably not far off from how they feel lol.
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