Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 17, 2011 13:01:49 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, hoops. I'm still not in full agreement with you but I understand where you're coming from much better now, and you made me think. So thanks for that *karma*
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 17, 2011 13:44:07 GMT -5
So... is she still quitting the bank job, or did we fry that fish and move on?
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reader79
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Post by reader79 on Mar 17, 2011 14:06:09 GMT -5
If I was her co-worker, I would not be volunteering my services to cover her shifts. Not because of a lack of patriotism, but because I think that with her attitude her husband deserves a break. If he really wanted to be glued to her side as she implies, then he wouldn't have joined up. I think that she hates this job, is resentful that they are not bowing down to her as a military wife, and is looking for an excuse to quit. So then just quit and get it over with, but badmouthing them is bad form.
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daylight
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Post by daylight on Mar 17, 2011 17:00:33 GMT -5
What did OP do in the end?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 17, 2011 18:51:51 GMT -5
As an ex-military member, I am appalled at some of the writings on this wall. The military is not the boy scouts. There is a reason that you don't get to "pick which wars you want to fight in". Yes, it is a voluntary military but when you sign up, the "voluntary" part is lessened. You take an oath to obey the people above you. You have no control over where you are going or when. Yes, you could refuse. That will get you a nice trip to Ft Leavenworth (If the military is nice, they will limit your punishment to a dishonorable discharge. But they don't have to be nice). Yes, you can end up in prison for refusing to go.
Do you think most military people want to be in places like Iraq? We don't get to pick. If you have an issue with the wars, talk to your representatives (Congress declares war) or the president (He is the Commander in chief who is in charge). Apparently, enough Americans thought these wars were worthwhile because they voted in people who weren't getting us out of them.
As far as things that the military has done for American security recently. I would say that the operations in Afghanistan were definitely to keep you safer (Al Qaeda had huge training bases there and planned 9/11 there). Sorry if you don't agree that the events of 9/11 were bad for America.
As far as other issues, the military has done a lot to help people worldwide. Kosovo, Bosnia? Those operations were to prevent people from killing each other. You can't tell me that you think that we should have looked the other way while Milosovich killed people just because it had nothing to with America directly.
As far as people signing up now and knowing what they are getting into, get real. You never know where the next operations are going to be. Do you seriously think that the guy who signed a 6 year contract on 8/31/01 knew that he would spend the next few years in Afghanistan or Iraq? How about the person who signed up on 9/20/01 for a 6 year contract? They knew that they would be going to Afghanistan (I don't know how you can argue that it was unnecessary to go there) but how would they know that they would be going to Iraq? And you want to questions their honor because they went to Iraq? What should they have done? You don't get to walk from a contract because you don't like what your Commander came up with...
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 17, 2011 18:56:16 GMT -5
Additonally, it takes time to ramp up a military. You have to train and practice. What do you think would happen if everyone went home because they "did not agree with Iraq" and said that they qould join when America was threatened? Do you seriously think that the govt could get people processed, trained, and equipped if we became involved in a war?
Why do you think that some of the crazies around the globe don't go hog wild on other countries? They know that we have the military ready to go. If we had everyone walk because they didn't agree with what was going on, what do you think some of these "leaders" would do? The leader of Iran has already talked about wiping Israel off the planet. You don't think the fact that America has a standing military helpd to deter him from actually taking action?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 17, 2011 19:02:32 GMT -5
As far as the OP, I do understand both sides (her side and her managers). I have known many mil people and spouses that always expect to be catered to. It isn't right when they do it, as we did sign up for the military knowing what it was and what the demands are. I think that if she had specific dates approved in advance, it is wrong to cancel those dates (Just as it would be if she was taking the days off to walk in the park). If she didn't have specific days already approved and manning doesn't allow the Saturdays off, I think the bank is justified in denying it (Much as they could for another employee). I think that the way you spend your vacation time is your business but one vacation isn't more important than another (If I want to spend my vacation sitting at home picking my nose, that is no less important than the person who wants to spend their vacation building houses for Habitat). In my experience in the civilian business world, you could talk to your colleagues and see if someone would take your place. I had several jobs where I could go on vacation if I got someone to agree to cover me. It didn't matter what the vacation was about... it was my job to find a replacement.
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Nazgul Girl
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Post by Nazgul Girl on Mar 17, 2011 19:55:41 GMT -5
So did Pammy quit, get fired, or work it out with her employer ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2011 21:28:34 GMT -5
Audreyalyce I am glad you feel the way you do. It would freak me out to think military people were willing to shoot people just because they were told to. I like the fact that you believe what you are doing is important and necessary.
But I would still like to think that you would be willing to go to Fort Leavenworth if you were told to kill people you believed to be innocent. I need to believe that you are still a thinking, decision making human being and not a blind automaton.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 17, 2011 21:49:47 GMT -5
That's what you took from her post, later? Really?
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 17, 2011 22:04:49 GMT -5
Later,
Contrary to what the media says, the US and coalition forces do not just show up in a country and start blowing people away. We have to comply with the Geneva Conventions and show restraint, even when the enemy does not (Yes, they hide among civilians, in mosques and other religious institutions, in hospitals, etc).
There are few that do the wrong thing (Abu Ghraib, the Pvt Green case, etc) but over 99.999% of the troops are good folks who do not go there to blow people up. If anything, we are there to protect them from each other (In Iraq, Shias and Sunnis were killing each other. There were many reports of Iraqis who are scared of what will happen when the coalition forces leave because they know that we are there to protect them). In our training, we are taught to be weary of everyone but do not use deadly force until it is absolutely necessary. It is always preferred not to shoot someone but to instead, arrest them and sort things out. You don't think that military people know the value of human life?
Would I be willing to go to Ft Leavenworth to avoid killing someone I didn't think deserved it? Yes... but it would never come to that. The officers and NCOs in charge are not just yelling orders telling the lower ranking folks to start killing people. If one started to do that, there are channels to address it. Military members are not mindless autobots who open fire when commanded to. They do encourage people to speak up if you see that innocent civilians are being targeted (How do you think most of the bad cases came out? Someone said something.) If someone is threatening me, my team, or innocent civilians though, I have no qualms about killing them. These are people that put car bombs in markets and IEDs on the road to blow up anyone. They target women, children, and the elderly. Look at cases like little Youssif, the Iraqi boy who had gas thrown on him and set on fire. That wasn't an American that did that. That was a terrorist who hated a 5 year old boy. The Americans were the ones who got him medical care so he could have a life and a regular face again. I don't see how you can justify not shooting them if they are trying to kill you or innocent people.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 17, 2011 22:11:36 GMT -5
Wanted to add: You can refuse to carry out an order if it is illegal. A violation of the Geneva Conventions would be considered illegal. You cannot just refuse to serve in the action because you don't like what the war is about. If you are a conscientious objector who is against all wars, there is an outlet for that but I would hope that you wouldn't have joined in the first place if you are against all wars...
Other good things that the US military has done.... provided immense support to Haiti after the earthquake, aided Pakistan after their national disaster (I think it was an earthquake?), regularly provides medical care to central/south american citizens through the deployment of the USS Comfort Hospital ship, provided assistance, transportation, food, and lodging to Americans after Hurricanes Ike, Katrina, Rita, etc.......
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 17, 2011 22:51:39 GMT -5
"And you want to questions their honor because they went to Iraq?"
No, i just want to question their intelligence if they think that choosing the military as a career choice is somehow more noble than choosing other careers. I don't think it's any more or less noble than other legal, normal career paths. I'd be blasting chefs, clerks, or bankers if their spouses were spouting off about how they deserve special privileges too because of what careers their spouses had.
"If someone is threatening me, my team, or innocent civilians though, I have no qualms about killing them."
Yeah, this isn't something to be proud of. If someone is defending their home country against invaders (you) you have no qualms killing them. So essentially what you're saying is that you would never kill someone unless they deserved it. And that people who defend their homeland from foreign invaders then must deserve to die since those are the people we kill.
"Do you think most military people want to be in places like Iraq?"
Where did you think you'd be fighting wars when you enlisted? Just hoping a war broke out in the bahamas and you could sip margaritas on the beach when not on missions? I don't think people WANT to be places like that, but anyone even remotely paying attention would know prior to enlisting that those are the kinds of places you're going to be fighting.
"I would say that the operations in Afghanistan were definitely to keep you safer (Al Qaeda had huge training bases there and planned 9/11 there)."
Yes, great job. I rest easier knowing that our military operations in Afghanistan are going so well that in 10 years we haven't been able to capture or kill the one person we went there for.
"You never know where the next operations are going to be."
You don't? Then you weren't paying much attention to world events apparently. Here's a hint: Go mark the places on the map that have things that we want. Oil, strategic locations, wealth, governments that don't agree with us. That's where the operations are going.
"(Yes, they hide among civilians, in mosques and other religious institutions, in hospitals, etc). "
Of course they do. As an added history lesson Americans did the same thing during the Revolutionary War when they were trying to fight off foreigners from controlling their land. Why wouldn't they employ any tactic necessary? You're coming into THEIR country in an effort to control them. What would you suggest they do? Just walk out and hand over everything they own to foreign invaders? Is that what you'd do if someone invaded your country?
"Apparently, enough Americans thought these wars were worthwhile because they voted in people who weren't getting us out of them. "
Actually, they just voted in someone who promised to put an end to it...and then didn't.
"I don't see how you can justify not shooting them if they are trying to kill you or innocent people. "
Really? So if I came to your home, kicked in the front door, pointed weapons at your family and killed anyone who tried to make me leave you would argue that I was in the right because "how can you justify NOT shooting them if they are trying to kill you"? Of course they're trying to kill you, you're somewhere you don't belong trying to take things that don't belong to you! You're trying to steal things that don't belong to you and somehow you label the owner as "the bad one" because he's trying to protect what he owns? I realize fully you're killing him because he's a threat and he's trying to kill you...you just like to conveniently leave out that he's trying to kill you because you're trying to take things that belong to him and not you. If your moral code makes that ok and the country you're a citizen of makes that legal...that's fine. That doesn't change the fact that you're morally corrupt though. If you're willing to do immoral things for a paycheck then so be it. It happens every day in lots of other professions too, it's become a fact of life in many sectors of the economy. But don't try to play off your legal but immoral acts as some kind of nobility.
If I pay you $20 to go rob the house across the street and you're willing to do it fine. I don't expect to be able to sit on the moral high horse just because I didn't actually do it myself. But you then don't get to pretend you're somehow noble because I paid you to do immoral things and you did them, or that it's somehow not your fault because "i made you".
I don't want to have an unprepared military waiting until there is a war over our actual freedom. I want the morally corrupt to bask in the glory of doing immoral things for the betterment of our country. I just don't want to hear them or their spouses pretend they're somehow noble for doing it. I have no problem paying those with a lacking moral compass or those without any better career options to do our country's bidding. They just need to realize what they're actually doing, and that it's nothing that's any more special than anyone else who works for a living.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 17, 2011 22:55:16 GMT -5
To add: In all honesty, if I was in a situation of killing someone or having them kill me...I wouldn't care either if they were the one in the right. If you or I has to die, and I'm in the wrong, I'm still doing all I can to make sure I'm the one who walks away. So I understand the mentality that you're not exactly willing to just let them be the ones to kill you. What I fail to understand though is how people create this fantasy world wherein they're noble or heroic in that act. I can understand being forced into that situation and doing what you have to in order to survive. Maybe that's just the illusion people in that situation paint in an effort to come to terms with the kinds of immoral acts they commit.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 17, 2011 23:23:39 GMT -5
Hoops, no one in their right mind is PROUD of killing anyone! In some situations, though, it's unavoidable. You don't want to be the one with that blood on your hands, fine, but it's really uncool to piss on the people who are willing to do the dirty work so you don't have to.
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share88
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Post by share88 on Mar 17, 2011 23:26:10 GMT -5
My guess is OP got her day off . . . .
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Mardi Gras Audrey
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 18, 2011 1:04:00 GMT -5
Hoops, that's a great attitude to have as you sit from the comfort of your living room, being able to sleep at night somewhat confident that your office won't be the next twin towers. I'm sure that the people whose family members and friends died that day wouldn't agree with you that it wasn't worthwhile to go to Afghanistan. As far as Iraq, hindsight is 20-20. Saddam Hussein kept insinuating that he had weapons of mass destruction. The UN didn't even know for sure what was going on over there. He was an evil man who ~12 years earlier had invaded Kuwait (a sovereign nation) and had spent years killing and torturing his own people. Do you really think it is a good idea to wait to find out of someone that crazy is bluffing? What if he did have WMDs? Sure, we may have been "safe" here in America but I'm guessing the citizens of the Middle East, Northern Africa, Eastern Asia, and Europe wouldn't be too happy right now. He certainly tried to get them and sanctions weren't stopping him. He played chicken and lost. You really think that the Iraqis who are terrorists are only killing/going after Americans? They are targeting their own people. They are killing their neighbors because of their religion. Yes, I do think you are an evil person if you are doing that. It wasn't right when it was done in World War II, it wasn't right in Kosovo, and it isn't right now. Why do you think that when the Iraqi govt started their "amnesty" programs they were allowing people to get it who only targeted us "foreign invaders"? We backed them on that... that was fair. But to give a pass to someone who is putting car bombs in markets filled with Iraqi civilians? That isn't going after us "evil foreign invaders", that is just genocide. How many coalition servicemembers do you think shop at the Bazaar in Baghdad? I'll give you a hint... very few.
As far as the American people go, they reelected Bush after we were in Iraq. If they thought it was such an evil war, they should have acted in 2004. They didn't. Hell, they could have voted for different reps in 2004 and 2006 who would have gotten the whole thing stopped (Congress controls the $$... no funding for war, no war). No one has a crystal ball and can see into the future. But to come years after the fact and act self righteous because the military is "evil" and should have known better is ridiculous. If you had the crystal ball in 2002 and knew FOR SURE that Saddam had nothing and was only bluffing, you should have written to the president and called your representatives and told them not to vote for a war.
As far as where you can go in the military, it isn't a given that you will be going to the middle east, as there are operations all over the globe. You could conceivably end up somewhere like the Bahamas... the military goes lots of different places on peacekeeping and humanitarian missions. We've been to Haiti, Central America, South America, Pakistan, helped after the Indian Ocean Tsunami, helped in the Gulf Coast region, etc. It isn;'t all about oil, despite what the media may want you to think..
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 18, 2011 7:37:09 GMT -5
"Do you really think it is a good idea to wait to find out of someone that crazy is bluffing? What if he did have WMDs?"
We FOR SURE have WMD's, do you think another country is justified in invading us for it? Or is it only justified when people we don't want to have them might have some?
There's a reason we pick and choose which countries we invade. The Chinese government murders a far higher number of people each year than Iraq did, than were being killed in Kosovo, Somalia, etc. But China has a big trade relationship with the US so it's ok.
"but it's really uncool to piss on the people who are willing to do the dirty work so you don't have to. "
I don't want to clean toilets or butcher animals either. I don't think that's any less noble than every other job on the planet but as soon as the janitor starts getting uppity talking about how his job is more noble than everyone else I'm gonna put him in his place. Same with the military, I don't think they're any lower in their jobs. But it's a joke to pretend they're somehow MORE noble than other jobs. As soon as the butcher starts about how big and important his job is because of some self-deluded grandeur I have no problem bringing those people back to reality either.
It just seems to be that those in the military seem more likely to suffer from that kind of self-delusion than others. Maybe it's a function of what kind of people can be convinced to join the military in the first place.
"Many of my neighbors came home with war wounds and were greeted with hatred after being drafted for Vietnam. Imagine that."
I do think there's a very VERY big difference between being drafted into the military and required to fight a war you might not necessarily agree with...and volunteering to join the military knowing exactly what kind of wars we use them to fight. When you volunteer you don't get to play the "I just had to do what they told me", anyone with any intelligence at all knows exactly what places they're going to send troops and why they're being sent there. If you're ok with having that be your job then great, I have no problem with you joining, but you don't get to join and then pretend that you have some kind of nobility in doing things just because you do what your boss tells you to do.
"So far as people thinking soldiers should mull over each and every war. Do you really want that?"
I don't really think that's necessary or reasonable at this point in time. We're fighting the same wars in different locations. That's basically my point above, no point in mulling over each war or complaining that you can't control where you're being sent because it's all the same with the wars we're involved in right now.
"How about when you show up for your own job and expect the boss to justify each and every thing he asks you to do. I'd like to see the manager who would put up with that. "
I agree. And I don't think once you're in you need to decide which wars to fight. But you knew exactly what you were getting yourself into when you took the job unless you're a moron. You don't accept a job as "cashier" at the supermarket and then complain that you don't get a choice of which customers come to your line. If you took a job as cashier without being intelligent enough to understand how the job worked, that's your own fault. You're not somehow noble because you ring up all the people you're required to ring up.
"I'm sure that the people whose family members and friends died that day wouldn't agree with you that it wasn't worthwhile to go to Afghanistan."
I had 3 friends die that day. That doesn't mean I threw all logic and intelligence out the window. More people die EVERY DAY in this country than died in the twin towers that day. But thank you for proving my point, that it has nothing to do with nobility or intelligence, it has only to do with propaganda and fear mongering.
"He was an evil man who ~12 years earlier had invaded Kuwait (a sovereign nation) and had spent years killing and torturing his own people."
Again, you seem to want to pick and choose when things are wrong. He did invade 1 nation. How many nations have we invaded? Does that make it ok for other countries to come here and kill our people because we have invaded COUNTLESS countries?
Cuba spent years killing and torturing their own people. Likewise China, North Korea, Russia, etc. But Iraq has oil and is smaller and weaker.
I don't have a problem with people joining the military and going to do these things. I just think it's sad that some people are simple minded enough to be convinced that it's some kind of noble thing and that we do it because it's "right" rather than realizing it's done as political/economic agenda pushing.
Kind of humorous that everyone wants to keep saying how noble it is when the fact remains that people are doing it because they are being PAID to do it. If you want to be noble then find a cause you believe in and do it for free. It's no more noble than any other job people get paid to do.
ETA: Ok, that's my pre-work response. Busy day so I won't be back most likely. Feel free to tell me to go to hell. I'm going to try not to post on the thread again unless I see OP came back with an update. I think we've all pretty much made our thoughts on the topic clear, not much need to keep rehashing them as I don't think any of us are exactly going to change our minds. Happy Friday!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2011 7:41:36 GMT -5
That's what you took from her post, later? Really? That's what I focussed on. She believes in the military and what she is doing. I might not agree but I can respect it. I can't respect someone just following orders because they were told to. Remember I am responding to the people that keep saying things like soldiers have no choice and it's not their fault. I contend they have made a choice and are totally responsible for themselves.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 18, 2011 10:17:59 GMT -5
I wish we knew if she was going to work 2 Saturdays or what?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 18, 2011 10:52:39 GMT -5
I don't want to clean toilets or butcher animals either. I don't think that's any less noble than every other job on the planet but as soon as the janitor starts getting uppity talking about how his job is more noble than everyone else I'm gonna put him in his place. Same with the military, I don't think they're any lower in their jobs. But it's a joke to pretend they're somehow MORE noble than other jobs. As soon as the butcher starts about how big and important his job is because of some self-deluded grandeur I have no problem bringing those people back to reality either.
That strikes me as illogical. If you REALLY THINK they are committing murder by going to countries and fighting wars that are wrong, then you SHOULD hold them in much lower regard than janitors. After all, these people are killing for a living, right? They're no different than career assassins, right?
Oh wait, I forgot, you don't think it's wrong to do "immoral things for a paycheck." So actually, you would hold them in the same regard. No job is any more or less noble than another except for firefighters and policemen. Okay then.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 18, 2011 12:06:21 GMT -5
Oh wait, I forgot, you don't think it's wrong to do "immoral things for a paycheck."
I'm intelligent enough to realize that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone doing a job anywhere that didn't somehow cross someone's lines of morality. Heck if you're a woman who's not covered head to toe in public you're already doing something immoral to some people. The best you can do is try to find something which doesn't cross your own moral code so that you can live happily with yourself. If invading someone else's country and murdering them is legal and within your moral code, then fine. You're not somehow above others though just because you have convinced yourself that it's ok to kill, steal, etc when someone else tells you to do it. Everyone needs to be comfortable with what they do, but they need to be intelligent enough to realize they don't deserve special treatment based on their own delusion.
My biggest problem frankly is the idea that some "soldiers" are more noble than others. If it's ok to kill Al Qaeda "soldiers" in Afghanistan because they oppose you, then Al Qaeda soldiers must also be as noble as US soldiers since they are fighting for what they believe in. That means that the people who crashed planes into the World Trade share the same nobility that our soldiers share. It's just all the same narrow minded views that "when we do it, it's heroic, when others do it, it's horrific".
And for reference to all of the "they killed civilians, blah blah blah" responses I'm sure will come, I would point you to the end of WWII in the Pacific. We didn't drop 2 bombs that killed only military personnel. It's all the same, we do the exact same things that we try to label other groups as horrible for.
There's a reason the military is full of naive young people. Most people by the time they reach their mid-20's are intelligent enough to see through the bs of "we're good, they're bad, go kill them"
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Mar 18, 2011 12:53:55 GMT -5
I'm intelligent enough to realize that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone doing a job anywhere that didn't somehow cross someone's lines of morality. Heck if you're a woman who's not covered head to toe in public you're already doing something immoral to some people.
I'm intelligent enough to recognize when I'm being patronized! Go me!
In all seriousness, REALLY?! You equate the fact that we've decided that women are equal to men in this country to killing people for a living?
So according to you, one is either a naive little pickle who just doesn't realize yet that ethics are complicated, or "intelligent enough" to recognize that any moral standard at all is relative and therefore useless?
Talk about a silly false dichotomy.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 18, 2011 13:04:05 GMT -5
I see she posted on WIR as well as here.
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qofcc
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Post by qofcc on Mar 18, 2011 18:26:24 GMT -5
So far as people thinking soldiers should mull over each and every war. Do you really want that? How about when you show up for your own job and expect the boss to justify each and every thing he asks you to do. I'd like to see the manager who would put up with that.
Actually, yes, I think they should think about what they're doing and if they think they're being told to do something wrong to the point that it would be harmful that they should be free to point it out and refuse to do it without the fear of being put in jail.
No, I don't expect the boss to justify each and every thing he asks me to do, but in all my years of working with executives, there have been many times when I've been told to do something and I've thought it was not the right thing to do and if I think it's a big deal, I speak up. Sometimes, they listen to what I say and agree that I have a better idea or that maybe their idea was wrong and they should do something different. Sometimes they say that regardless of what I think, that's their decision and I need to do it the way they want it done. I'm thankful that things I do don't affect anyone's lives, just their profits or paychecks. But I know that if I was ever told to do something that I couldn't do in good conscience, I'm free to walk out the door at any time. I might hurt my career with a bad reference, but nobody is going to put me in jail.
I hear the arguments about how the military has to give up their right of personal freedom and do what they're told under fear of punishment or the system just won't work and I just don't buy it. All over the world, police, fire fighters, CIA agents, etc., do jobs where they put themselves in harms way to enforce the law or protect people or participate in missions to push the agenda of our country that they believe in. And each of them has the right to refuse a mission at any time and walk away and the worst that can be done to them is being fired and getting a bad job reference.
If the military had to get the buy-in of its employees like any other company, I think they would be a lot more selective about the wars they fight.
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Mardi Gras Audrey
Senior Member
So well rounded, I'm pointless...
Joined: Dec 25, 2010 18:49:31 GMT -5
Posts: 2,082
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Post by Mardi Gras Audrey on Mar 18, 2011 19:23:06 GMT -5
So far as people thinking soldiers should mull over each and every war. Do you really want that? How about when you show up for your own job and expect the boss to justify each and every thing he asks you to do. I'd like to see the manager who would put up with that. Actually, yes, I think they should think about what they're doing and if they think they're being told to do something wrong to the point that it would be harmful that they should be free to point it out and refuse to do it without the fear of being put in jail. No, I don't expect the boss to justify each and every thing he asks me to do, but in all my years of working with executives, there have been many times when I've been told to do something and I've thought it was not the right thing to do and if I think it's a big deal, I speak up. Sometimes, they listen to what I say and agree that I have a better idea or that maybe their idea was wrong and they should do something different. Sometimes they say that regardless of what I think, that's their decision and I need to do it the way they want it done. I'm thankful that things I do don't affect anyone's lives, just their profits or paychecks. But I know that if I was ever told to do something that I couldn't do in good conscience, I'm free to walk out the door at any time. I might hurt my career with a bad reference, but nobody is going to put me in jail. I hear the arguments about how the military has to give up their right of personal freedom and do what they're told under fear of punishment or the system just won't work and I just don't buy it. All over the world, police, fire fighters, CIA agents, etc., do jobs where they put themselves in harms way to enforce the law or protect people or participate in missions to push the agenda of our country that they believe in. And each of them has the right to refuse a mission at any time and walk away and the worst that can be done to them is being fired and getting a bad job reference. If the military had to get the buy-in of its employees like any other company, I think they would be a lot more selective about the wars they fight. Ummm.. you do realize that the military doesn't get to select the wars they fight in, don't you? If it was up to the military, we wouldn't be in any wars. I will repeat this again, CONGRESS DECLARES WARS. The military does not run Congress. Congress doesn't care what our buy in is. The President, as the Commander in Chief, can order the troops to go places but cannot officially declare war. The military does not choose the President (We get to vote like every other citizen bit that is the extent of our "choice"). I liken it to income taxes. Congress decides what we pay in income taxes. If you don't like what your taxes are going for (and, obviously a few of you don't because you don't think that the wars are legit), have you refused to pay taxes? If you haven't refused, you are just as much a part of the "problem" that you think is evil as the military person going to fight the war. Have you paid your taxes? If so, then your morals are just as in question. The fact that you can be sent to jail for not paying/filing should have no bearing on whether or not you do because you are saying that everyone should take their own moral high ground. If you have not paid/filed, have you been visited by the IRS?
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schildi
Well-Known Member
3718 and no text
Joined: Jan 14, 2011 1:38:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,799
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Post by schildi on Mar 18, 2011 21:33:41 GMT -5
I wish we knew if she was going to work 2 Saturdays or what? Me too. Here is my guess: she did not hear what she wanted to hear (here and over on WIR), and left. It happens. I am not sure, and maybe she'll proof me wrong, but that's my feeling. About the job? I have a feeling that she either found somebody to cover for her, works either one or both Saturdays, or she quit. Or management just decided to giver her the two days off. Yeah, I'd like to know as well.
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daylight
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:24:19 GMT -5
Posts: 195
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Post by daylight on Mar 19, 2011 4:32:46 GMT -5
Zib, thanks for posting about OP posting.
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qofcc
Well-Known Member
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 13:30:58 GMT -5
Posts: 1,869
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Post by qofcc on Mar 19, 2011 8:07:18 GMT -5
Ummm.. you do realize that the military doesn't get to select the wars they fight in, don't you? If it was up to the military, we wouldn't be in any wars. I will repeat this again, CONGRESS DECLARES WARS. The military does not run Congress. Congress doesn't care what our buy in is.
Of course I get that the military doesn't get to select the wars. The point is that if they're the ones fighting the wars they should get a say or at least be able to opt out. If congress tells them to go blow up some other country, they really should have the right and obligation to say that that's not such a good idea if that's how they feel. I can understand historically how this came about, because hundreds of years ago the country was run by a small group of men and the average person didn't have the education to understand complex issues and leaders didn't have effective methods of communication with the masses so control by fear and force became necessary. I think our world is now past that and so much progress has been made in other parts of business and government, but the military still seems to have this strange need to order people around and take away personal freedom and they think that blindly following orders is a good thing.
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happyscooter
Senior Member
Joined: Jan 5, 2011 9:04:06 GMT -5
Posts: 2,416
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Post by happyscooter on Mar 19, 2011 8:31:07 GMT -5
qofcc-there are too many people who join the military and then say 'oh, I didn't know I was going to have to fight.' What did they think? They could just train every day for 20-30 years, get free schooling, medical care, free/discounted housing, 3 meals a day, hike in the rain, learn to clean guns and get a good pension when their time was up?
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