Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Aug 28, 2015 7:40:51 GMT -5
But it was about slavery. Did you bother to read the declarations of causes? In those states own words it was about slavery.
And it doesn't only matter how you view the symbol. It also matters how others see it. Others view it as a flag representing racism and hate. Thus for a great many people that is what they will think when they see you display it.
I'll be honest that growing up in the west I didn't have strong feelings about the flag when I was younger. Then I married a black man who grew up in the south and had incredible southern pride. He thought it was a symbol of racism and hate and one of the most vile things someone could display. He would get visible upset when he would see it. Knowing how much some hate the flag and see it as a symbol of racism, I can't imagine why anyone would want to proudly display it. But you know, congratulations for being willing to display your 'southern pride' despite who it offends or upsets.
|
|
grumpyhermit
Well-Known Member
Joined: Jul 12, 2012 12:04:00 GMT -5
Posts: 1,432
|
Post by grumpyhermit on Aug 28, 2015 8:30:30 GMT -5
Neo-Nazi and white nationalist groups typically align themselves with the cause of "restoring" the nation, so the fact that they are flying the US flag is hardly noteworthy. They view themselves as patriots. I would expect them to fly the national flag of the country they are trying to "save".
Now lets take a look at the other two flags they fly...hmmmmm....what ideology is it that these two banners have in common...yeah its a real mystery.
This intractable instance that it must surely be the rest of the country that is being mislead by history books, and cherry picked facts, would actually be laughable if it weren't so sad. If we were scouring through obscure source material, and citing the loony fringes of the succession movement, I could almost understand the argument. However, we are literally referring to what amounts to their mission statements. If slavery was just a propaganda ploy, why on earth did so many of the southern states list it in their articles?
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,730
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Aug 28, 2015 8:49:28 GMT -5
Which part is propaganda? The part where the confederates wanted to extend the institution of slavery? The part where racist dixiecrats waived it to oppose civil rights for blacks? The part where the KKK waived it while lynching blacks? The part where neo-nazis still waive it while spewing hate? They're all documented historical facts. Wanting them to be propaganda doesn't make them false. The "it was all about slavery" bit. That's propaganda, and a lot of the country is buying it... hook, line, and sinker. You must have missed where the dixiecrats wave the US flag too. You must have also missed where the KKK waves the US flag as well. You must have missed where the neo-Nazis wave the US flag also. (Neo-Nazi rally in Laguna Beach, CA) Do you notice that two of the flags are "Old Glory"? Or do they, in your opinion, for some odd reason, not count? Just out of curiosity... which flag is this little Hitler Wannabe proudly holding? The fact that those groups that you have such a problem with, all use the US flag as well is ALSO "well documented fact" Where's your outcry for the US flag to be done away with because it represents racism and it's history represents slavery? Richard, people misusing flags happens all the time. You keep insisting by flying the confederate flag you are showing pride in the South. That flag only existed for a short legit purpose around 1863. It wasn't about pride in southern food and manners.
People misuse the US flag, you misuse the Confederate flag. Not sure how their screw-ups bolster what you think is your legitimate point.
|
|
OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
|
Post by OldCoyote on Aug 28, 2015 8:49:28 GMT -5
Now that we have remove this symbol of slavery and racism, there is no more racism, Right??
Looks to me like this pretty much a hollow victory that means very little..
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,545
|
Post by Tennesseer on Aug 28, 2015 12:30:07 GMT -5
Right or wrong, many Americans believe the Confederate flag symbolizes racism. If you (general you) believe the Confederate flag represents Southern pride, then you (general you again) must wrest control of the flag from the white supremacist groups and individuals who display it to symbolize white pride and power. Until these groups and individuals no longer wave the Confederate flag as a sign of separation from other races in our country, many Americans will still have a negative opinion of the flag.
To those who believe the flag represents Southern pride, you must take the Confederate flag away from those who sully it for purely racist reasons. And even then, you will not change the opinion of some Americans. So be it.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,171
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 28, 2015 12:43:34 GMT -5
Now that we have remove this symbol of slavery and racism, there is no more racism, Right?? Looks to me like this pretty much a hollow victory that means very little.. here is what i think about "isms": 1) they are pretty much never true. there is no inherent superiority of one group over another. 2) when one group asserts it's superiority, it sheds light on the issue. in the light of day, people can see that #1 is true, and the group doing the asserting looks ridiculous, and slinks away. 3) when a group that thinks itself superior is mocked, the mocking sheds light on the issue. in the light of day, people can see that #1 is true, and the group mocked gets knocked down a few notches. the fact that Obama brought racism to the forefront was painful for our nation. but let's face it: there are small infections that heal themselves, and there are really big ones that will grow until they kill you. the latter has to be opened up, and cleaned out. it is not a painless process. but in the end, it is necessary for actual healing to take place. bringing racists or bigots down a notch might seem at the time to be noisy, painful, and unnecessary- but ultimately, if it results in bigots having less authority and everyone else being elevated, isn't that a good thing?
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,730
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Aug 28, 2015 13:06:54 GMT -5
Be accurate. There was only one country ever on US soil, at that is America. These other states wanted to secede and create a country that kept slavery, but they were never recognized officially as a country to my knowledge.
Even the CNN blurb video acknowledges that using the confederate flag as southern pride is really revisionist history. If for some reason people feel the need to celebrate the whole South and hopefully the modern South versus living in the 1860s, why not design something new. Something that is about what is good in the South instead of using a flag from a Civil War. Even when I want to be generous and believe someone is displaying it as Southern pride, I keep wondering what the heck they are proud of? www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/
Note the view of the flag is racist is actually more common in Southern blacks than blacks in general.
I grew up in the Midwest, there is no Northern pride nor obsession with such. So I remain totally confused as to the need and apparent obsession with Southern pride. I think it would be more useful to have biscuit bakeoffs as example and having someone design a logo for Southern Pride and define what the heck that is as well. JMO.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 18:24:24 GMT -5
But it was about slavery. Did you bother to read the declarations of causes? In those states own words it was about slavery.And it doesn't only matter how you view the symbol. It also matters how others see it. Others view it as a flag representing racism and hate. Thus for a great many people that is what they will think when they see you display it. I'll be honest that growing up in the west I didn't have strong feelings about the flag when I was younger. Then I married a black man who grew up in the south and had incredible southern pride. He thought it was a symbol of racism and hate and one of the most vile things someone could display. He would get visible upset when he would see it. Knowing how much some hate the flag and see it as a symbol of racism, I can't imagine why anyone would want to proudly display it. But you know, congratulations for being willing to display your 'southern pride' despite who it offends or upsets. I'll say it again, not that you will likely hear it this time either: It WASN'T about slavery. Slavery was AN issue, not THE issue. Those specific documents were used to help drum up aid from other countries. Most of which did have slavery themselves (they didn't get enough aid to win the war, obviously). The rest of the information available, from numerous other sources of the time (if you care to do some research) pointed to many other reasons for the secession.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 18:32:54 GMT -5
The "it was all about slavery" bit. That's propaganda, and a lot of the country is buying it... hook, line, and sinker. You must have missed where the dixiecrats wave the US flag too. You must have also missed where the KKK waves the US flag as well. You must have missed where the neo-Nazis wave the US flag also. (Neo-Nazi rally in Laguna Beach, CA) Do you notice that two of the flags are "Old Glory"? Or do they, in your opinion, for some odd reason, not count? Just out of curiosity... which flag is this little Hitler Wannabe proudly holding? The fact that those groups that you have such a problem with, all use the US flag as well is ALSO "well documented fact" Where's your outcry for the US flag to be done away with because it represents racism and it's history represents slavery? Richard, people misusing flags happens all the time. You keep insisting by flying the confederate flag you are showing pride in the South. That flag only existed for a short legit purpose around 1863. It wasn't about pride in southern food and manners.
People misuse the US flag, you misuse the Confederate flag. Not sure how their screw-ups bolster what you think is your legitimate point.
The point I am making is that it's wrong to hold the flag accountable because some group misuses it. Everyone that says "It's racist, The KKK uses it" forgets that the KKK uses the American flag too. Same with the Neo-Nazis. My point is, don't blame the flag over being misused, blame the misuser. I agree that as an "officially sanctioned, government representative flag" it did only exist for a short time, but that doesn't mean it didn't represent Southern Society AS A WHOLE (warts and all). What it doesn't mean is that it represented slavery and racism. If Americans can be proud of the American Flag with it's provable historic ties to racism and slavery... then why can't Southerners be proud of the Confederate flags?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 19:16:55 GMT -5
Be accurate. There was only one country ever on US soil, at that is America. These other states wanted to secede and create a country that kept slavery, but they were never recognized officially as a country to my knowledge.
Even the CNN blurb video acknowledges that using the confederate flag as southern pride is really revisionist history. If for some reason people feel the need to celebrate the whole South and hopefully the modern South versus living in the 1860s, why not design something new. Something that is about what is good in the South instead of using a flag from a Civil War. Even when I want to be generous and believe someone is displaying it as Southern pride, I keep wondering what the heck they are proud of? www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/
Note the view of the flag is racist is actually more common in Southern blacks than blacks in general.
I grew up in the Midwest, there is no Northern pride nor obsession with such. So I remain totally confused as to the need and apparent obsession with Southern pride. I think it would be more useful to have biscuit bakeoffs as example and having someone design a logo for Southern Pride and define what the heck that is as well. JMO.
I was accurate. After the secession (which even the Supreme Court declared to be legal), the Southern States' "soil" wasn't US "soil" anymore. Being recognized as a separate country by the other nations of the world sometimes takes time (interesting note: The British didn't recognize the US until AFTER the war, in 1783... Morocco was the first country to recognize the US, in 1777), and isn't actually a requirement to BE a country.
|
|
Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
|
Post by Angel! on Aug 28, 2015 19:20:12 GMT -5
But it was about slavery. Did you bother to read the declarations of causes? In those states own words it was about slavery.And it doesn't only matter how you view the symbol. It also matters how others see it. Others view it as a flag representing racism and hate. Thus for a great many people that is what they will think when they see you display it. I'll be honest that growing up in the west I didn't have strong feelings about the flag when I was younger. Then I married a black man who grew up in the south and had incredible southern pride. He thought it was a symbol of racism and hate and one of the most vile things someone could display. He would get visible upset when he would see it. Knowing how much some hate the flag and see it as a symbol of racism, I can't imagine why anyone would want to proudly display it. But you know, congratulations for being willing to display your 'southern pride' despite who it offends or upsets. I'll say it again, not that you will likely hear it this time either: It WASN'T about slavery. Slavery was AN issue, not THE issue. Those specific documents were used to help drum up aid from other countries. Most of which did have slavery themselves (they didn't get enough aid to win the war, obviously). The rest of the information available, from numerous other sources of the time (if you care to do some research) pointed to many other reasons for the secession. I did research. I read the declarations. If you have links to additional documents I will read those as well.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 19:32:49 GMT -5
I'll say it again, not that you will likely hear it this time either: It WASN'T about slavery. Slavery was AN issue, not THE issue. Those specific documents were used to help drum up aid from other countries. Most of which did have slavery themselves (they didn't get enough aid to win the war, obviously). The rest of the information available, from numerous other sources of the time (if you care to do some research) pointed to many other reasons for the secession. I did research. I read the declarations. If you have links to additional documents I will read those as well. Unfortunately I don't have links. All my research was "pre-internet" using books and libraries, Newspapers, archived personal correspondence, and microfiche. PLUS all the revisionist crap has clogged the internet making the truth incredibly hard to find anymore. I know the truth, if you'd like to know the truth too, best I can do is tell you it IS out there IF you want to put in the time to find it. If you'd like to believe the revisionist crap based on SOME historical facts that agree with the propaganda and were allowed to remain findable (but ignoring all the ones that were buried under tons of crap "research")... you could do that as well. It's completely your choice. IT may help you in your search (should you decide to undertake it) to use the following Google Search as a starting point "Reasons for secession -slavery -slave" (that should eliminate most of the "approved, because they prove it was about slavery!" links).
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,730
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Aug 28, 2015 20:03:15 GMT -5
Richard, people misusing flags happens all the time. You keep insisting by flying the confederate flag you are showing pride in the South. That flag only existed for a short legit purpose around 1863. It wasn't about pride in southern food and manners.
People misuse the US flag, you misuse the Confederate flag. Not sure how their screw-ups bolster what you think is your legitimate point.
The point I am making is that it's wrong to hold the flag accountable because some group misuses it. Everyone that says "It's racist, The KKK uses it" forgets that the KKK uses the American flag too. Same with the Neo-Nazis. My point is, don't blame the flag over being misused, blame the misuser. I agree that as an "officially sanctioned, government representative flag" it did only exist for a short time, but that doesn't mean it didn't represent Southern Society AS A WHOLE (warts and all). What it doesn't mean is that it represented slavery and racism. If Americans can be proud of the American Flag with it's provable historic ties to racism and slavery... then why can't Southerners be proud of the Confederate flags? You can be proud of whatever you want to be proud of, I can not stop you. It is however an interesting choice to pick a symbol of when the South did not want to be part of America as a symbol of Southern pride.
You keep saying slavery wasn't the primary reason, but you have never mentioned in your opinion what the primary reason was. It appears each state had a bunch of their own reasons. However the fact that most agreed on the slavery issue and it seems none of the flags or initial speeches concentrated on tariffs, economic issues or other things - it is reasonable to notice slavery links most of the states who decided to declare why they want to leave the United States of America.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 20:43:50 GMT -5
The point I am making is that it's wrong to hold the flag accountable because some group misuses it. Everyone that says "It's racist, The KKK uses it" forgets that the KKK uses the American flag too. Same with the Neo-Nazis. My point is, don't blame the flag over being misused, blame the misuser. I agree that as an "officially sanctioned, government representative flag" it did only exist for a short time, but that doesn't mean it didn't represent Southern Society AS A WHOLE (warts and all). What it doesn't mean is that it represented slavery and racism. If Americans can be proud of the American Flag with it's provable historic ties to racism and slavery... then why can't Southerners be proud of the Confederate flags? You can be proud of whatever you want to be proud of, I can not stop you. It is however an interesting choice to pick a symbol of when the South did not want to be part of America as a symbol of Southern pride.
You keep saying slavery wasn't the primary reason, but you have never mentioned in your opinion what the primary reason was. It appears each state had a bunch of their own reasons. However the fact that most agreed on the slavery issue and it seems none of the flags or initial speeches concentrated on tariffs, economic issues or other things - it is reasonable to notice slavery links most of the states who decided to declare why they want to leave the United States of America.
You misunderstand the symbol. The South very much wanted to be "part of America"... the problem is the North was moving away from what America, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence meant and stood for. Interesting corollary to this... IF "States Rights" had won over "Centralized Federal Government Control" (even if the South had still lost, if the North had learned the lesson)... the fight over Gay Marriage would have been very different. States still would be forced to recognize marriages performed in other states (per the reciprocity clause), but there would have been no ruling requiring states to require gay marriages (the ceremonies and legal solemnization of the marriage) to occur in their state. That's why "States Rights" is important. ETA: and yes, I have mentioned other reasons, just not in this thread. I've posted them numerous times, and they are always ignored because people apparently prefer to believe the propaganda.
|
|
Opti
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 18, 2010 10:45:38 GMT -5
Posts: 39,730
Location: New Jersey
Mini-Profile Name Color: c28523
Mini-Profile Text Color: 990033
|
Post by Opti on Aug 28, 2015 21:26:09 GMT -5
You can be proud of whatever you want to be proud of, I can not stop you. It is however an interesting choice to pick a symbol of when the South did not want to be part of America as a symbol of Southern pride.
You keep saying slavery wasn't the primary reason, but you have never mentioned in your opinion what the primary reason was. It appears each state had a bunch of their own reasons. However the fact that most agreed on the slavery issue and it seems none of the flags or initial speeches concentrated on tariffs, economic issues or other things - it is reasonable to notice slavery links most of the states who decided to declare why they want to leave the United States of America.
You misunderstand the symbol. The South very much wanted to be "part of America"... the problem is the North was moving away from what America, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence meant and stood for. Interesting corollary to this... IF "States Rights" had won over "Centralized Federal Government Control" (even if the South had still lost, if the North had learned the lesson)... the fight over Gay Marriage would have been very different. States still would be forced to recognize marriages performed in other states (per the reciprocity clause), but there would have been no ruling requiring states to require gay marriages (the ceremonies and legal solemnization of the marriage) to occur in their state. That's why "States Rights" is important. ETA: and yes, I have mentioned other reasons, just not in this thread. I've posted them numerous times, and they are always ignored because people apparently prefer to believe the propaganda. I do not understand how you see the symbol, that is true. I do not think I am alone in my views on it. If you want to be part of something you fight to stay in it, you don't declare you are separate. Its like filing for divorce and claiming you want to stay in the marriage. It does not make any rational sense.
Yes some of the states preferred a more state rights type of view than what was occurring in the capitol. Since the population is so mobile now, I think it is more useful to have more things similar across states instead of having states become like European countries with their own culture and rules. My guess is many southern states, especially Texas, would prefer that latter scenario.
|
|
fishy999
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 9, 2015 20:40:43 GMT -5
Posts: 629
|
Post by fishy999 on Aug 29, 2015 1:26:06 GMT -5
American Hero
|
|
fishy999
Familiar Member
Joined: Aug 9, 2015 20:40:43 GMT -5
Posts: 629
|
Post by fishy999 on Aug 29, 2015 1:39:43 GMT -5
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,171
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 29, 2015 13:04:11 GMT -5
American Hero thug life.
|
|
Tennesseer
Member Emeritus
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 21:58:42 GMT -5
Posts: 63,545
|
Post by Tennesseer on Aug 29, 2015 16:36:42 GMT -5
American Hero thug life. He doesn't appear to be starving.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:41:58 GMT -5
You misunderstand the symbol. The South very much wanted to be "part of America"... the problem is the North was moving away from what America, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence meant and stood for. Interesting corollary to this... IF "States Rights" had won over "Centralized Federal Government Control" (even if the South had still lost, if the North had learned the lesson)... the fight over Gay Marriage would have been very different. States still would be forced to recognize marriages performed in other states (per the reciprocity clause), but there would have been no ruling requiring states to require gay marriages (the ceremonies and legal solemnization of the marriage) to occur in their state. That's why "States Rights" is important. ETA: and yes, I have mentioned other reasons, just not in this thread. I've posted them numerous times, and they are always ignored because people apparently prefer to believe the propaganda. I do not understand how you see the symbol, that is true. I do not think I am alone in my views on it. If you want to be part of something you fight to stay in it, you don't declare you are separate. Its like filing for divorce and claiming you want to stay in the marriage. It does not make any rational sense.
Yes some of the states preferred a more state rights type of view than what was occurring in the capitol. Since the population is so mobile now, I think it is more useful to have more things similar across states instead of having states become like European countries with their own culture and rules. My guess is many southern states, especially Texas, would prefer that latter scenario.
It's not how "I" see the symbol that's the problem though. To use/correct your marriage example: It's more like getting into a marriage because the person you want to marry acts a certain way, then changes over time to become a person you never would have asked to marry in the first place. THEN when you try to work it out they tell you "Tough crap, this is who I am, I just acted like that to get married", so you make a decision, they can choose to go back to who they portrayed themselves to be... or you will divorce and find someone else that matches what you wanted in the first place.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 18:45:25 GMT -5
It wasn't about slavery, it was about state's rights... namely the right to continue owning slaves.You celebrate a symbol of ignorance and hatred. It's a free country dude, you don't have to lie about it. Just own it. Your first sentence was correct... up until you added the propaganda that I crossed out. I don't celebrate a symbol of "ignorance and hatred". I celebrate a symbol of Helping your neighbors, putting family first, being gentlemanly and lady-like, fighting against an oppressive government... All the good things that being a "Southern Gentleman" means. And I agree... it's a free country. That's why I DON'T lie about anything... including why I fly the flag and what it actually means.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2015 19:06:04 GMT -5
American Hero I looked and I looked and I looked... I couldn't find a Confederate flag anywhere in that picture. Know what I did see? I saw a Cross. Let's ban crosses because they truly represent evil! (well... we all agree that he's evil, and we all agree that evil people will only have evil symbols...)
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 13:12:32 GMT -5
how you wish to be seen is entirely up to you. My guess is that @jma23 wishes to be seen as being proud of their Southern Heritage. That's, admittedly, just a guess though. You guessed correct.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 8, 2024 18:09:31 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2015 13:14:26 GMT -5
My guess is that @jma23 wishes to be seen as being proud of their Southern Heritage. That's, admittedly, just a guess though. my guess is that he doesn't give a shit. that is admittedly just a guess, tho. I was raised down south. Your guess is incorrect.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,171
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Sept 2, 2015 13:16:51 GMT -5
my guess is that he doesn't give a shit. that is admittedly just a guess, tho. I was raised down south. Your guess is incorrect. oh well. it was just a guess.
|
|