Robert not Bobby
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Post by Robert not Bobby on Aug 21, 2015 13:34:04 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with the confederate flag...my great grand parents immigrated here from Ireland and Italy in the early 1900s. I understand the symbolism and how odious it is to some. I also understand that to some it is a symbol of resistance from northern aggression.
A flag doesn't define or make or brake a society.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 21, 2015 15:11:05 GMT -5
irrelevant. you are completely entitled to kitch, and i am completely entitled to criticize it. so, i take it you are a fan of "Piss Christ"? I don't know what kitch is nor ever heard of or seen "Piss Christ" either. i recommend Google for that.Is it a slam at the Christianity cult ? The best way for me to explain how I feel about art is taking how you feel about Zimmermans' painting of the Confederate battle flag and applying it to all art, just an easy source of money. that is what you think art is? if so, you really are operating in a different universe from me. for me, art is almost a guarantee of poverty.I can easily accept it means something to someone else, just not me. I'm art neutral, as in no feelings at all for it. I've been self limiting this discussion to visual art, have you ? in terms of this discussion? sure. why not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 21, 2015 15:13:31 GMT -5
i wasn't referring to anyone on the board. i was asking if you agree with the principle that "a person should be allowed to do whatever he wishes with his person or property so long as he is not harming the person or property of a non-consenting other"? yay or nay? Agree, but there is a lot of grey area on that subject. not for me, but general agreement suffices.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Aug 21, 2015 21:42:53 GMT -5
in a number of ways. first of all, selling guns says nothing about the seller. it is not PERSONAL, it is just business. secondly, guns are not subject to valuation on the basis of whether their creator has any artistic talent, or is in any way worthy from the standpoint of creativity to a collector or appreciator of art. but i would also add that if you are selling crap art for $100k/pop you are not going to get very far: your market is far shallower than the American gun market. in other words, you can make an actual living in the latter- the former, quite doubtful (unless you exhibit talent, like Churchill did). When the paintings stop selling, go work at the gun store. I was hoping fishy was going to answer my quoting her post. Or is this one of those "pile on" situations that you hate so much when it happens to you ? I would still like a source for her "small bunch of racists" claim. No source- it is just an assumption that a lot of people got upset after the flags came down in a few places and they decided to make a statement and hence the uptick in sales. On a financial level I don't blame the guy- and in his mind he is the victim in all this so I can see why he does what he does. But I take issue with a business openly discriminating based on religion and his dumb ass getting involved in that. If he is going to sellout on the infamous act of gunning down some kid then sell the gun. Go for the whole enchilada. FYI- he is not selling paintings for 100K a pop- he is only selling prints of one painting that some weirdo paid 100K for.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 12:41:27 GMT -5
When the paintings stop selling, go work at the gun store. I was hoping fishy was going to answer my quoting her post. Or is this one of those "pile on" situations that you hate so much when it happens to you ? I would still like a source for her "small bunch of racists" claim. No source- it is just an assumption that a lot of people got upset after the flags came down in a few places and they decided to make a statement and hence the uptick in sales. On a financial level I don't blame the guy- and in his mind he is the victim in all this so I can see why he does what he does. But I take issue with a business openly discriminating based on religion and his dumb ass getting involved in that. If he is going to sellout on the infamous act of gunning down some kid then sell the gun. Go for the whole enchilada. FYI- he is not selling paintings for 100K a pop- he is only selling prints of one painting that some weirdo paid 100K for. I really haven't been following what Zimmerman has been doing. He's really nothing to me. People continuing to talk about him just extends his moment of fame. I live in Arkansas and most view the Confederate battle flag as a expression of southern heritage, from both blacks and whites here. Most I talk to are suddenly flying the flag as a response to a northern Yankee media intrusion into southern culture. The only racist talk down here about that flag is on ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news. I've got a plastic front license plate on my p/u truck with a picture of that flag on it. It's been there for 15 years and it's staying. It's not there for any racist reason. It's not coming off no matter how many people say "racist" on the TV.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 13:21:38 GMT -5
No source- it is just an assumption that a lot of people got upset after the flags came down in a few places and they decided to make a statement and hence the uptick in sales. On a financial level I don't blame the guy- and in his mind he is the victim in all this so I can see why he does what he does. But I take issue with a business openly discriminating based on religion and his dumb ass getting involved in that. If he is going to sellout on the infamous act of gunning down some kid then sell the gun. Go for the whole enchilada. FYI- he is not selling paintings for 100K a pop- he is only selling prints of one painting that some weirdo paid 100K for. I really haven't been following what Zimmerman has been doing. He's really nothing to me. People continuing to talk about him just extends his moment of fame. I live in Arkansas and most view the Confederate battle flag as a expression of southern heritage, from both blacks and whites here. Most I talk to are suddenly flying the flag as a response to a northern Yankee media intrusion into southern culture. The only racist talk down here about that flag is on ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news. I've got a plastic front license plate on my p/u truck with a picture of that flag on it. It's been there for 15 years and it's staying. It's not there for any racist reason. It's not coming off no matter how many people say "racist" on the TV. how you wish to be seen is entirely up to you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2015 18:08:49 GMT -5
I really haven't been following what Zimmerman has been doing. He's really nothing to me. People continuing to talk about him just extends his moment of fame. I live in Arkansas and most view the Confederate battle flag as a expression of southern heritage, from both blacks and whites here. Most I talk to are suddenly flying the flag as a response to a northern Yankee media intrusion into southern culture. The only racist talk down here about that flag is on ABC, CBS, and NBC nightly news. I've got a plastic front license plate on my p/u truck with a picture of that flag on it. It's been there for 15 years and it's staying. It's not there for any racist reason. It's not coming off no matter how many people say "racist" on the TV. how you wish to be seen is entirely up to you. My guess is that @jma23 wishes to be seen as being proud of their Southern Heritage. That's, admittedly, just a guess though.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 19:10:35 GMT -5
how you wish to be seen is entirely up to you. My guess is that @jma23 wishes to be seen as being proud of their Southern Heritage. That's, admittedly, just a guess though. my guess is that he doesn't give a shit. that is admittedly just a guess, tho.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 3:21:55 GMT -5
Eh.. I'm proud of my German heritage, but you won't see me putting this bad boy on my car, house, or clothing, and it actually was the official national flag for a brief period. [freaking huge Nazi Flag redacted] I'm not southern and have no idea why they romanticize being traitors and slave owners so much. It makes less than zero sense to me. I guess it's escaped your notice that none of them were traitors... and most of them weren't slave owners (not to mention that Slavery wasn't the reason for the secession & resultant Civil War, anyway). ETA: Secession legally and appropriately severed the ties with the Union... making anyone that took up arms against the Union NOT a traitor. The only way they could possibly be traitors would be to take up arms against their own country. Traitors to the United States do not get military pensions from the Government of the United States. So, if they were traitors, explain this: Now, granted that ACT was mostly symbolic, as all the combatants had passed away by that date, It still notates that they were considered equal equal in honor to their Country and to their cause as Union soldiers, and not traitors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 5:04:16 GMT -5
Got bored so did some more investigating. Traitors don't get buried in Arlington National Cemetery nor do they have Monuments to them erected in Arlington National Cemetery. Confederate soldiers are buried in Arlington, and there's a monument to them there as well. Here's the monument: Here's a link to Arlington Cemetery's page about it: Confederate Memorial and Graves Section
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 27, 2015 10:22:42 GMT -5
Eh.. I'm proud of my German heritage, but you won't see me putting this bad boy on my car, house, or clothing, and it actually was the official national flag for a brief period. I'm not southern and have no idea why they romanticize being traitors and slave owners so much. It makes less than zero sense to me. Are you comparing this flag to the Confederate flag??
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 27, 2015 11:04:41 GMT -5
i think it is a valid comparison, in some ways. do you want me to enumerate them?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 27, 2015 11:47:55 GMT -5
[I guess it's escaped your notice that none of them were traitors... and most of them weren't slave owners (not to mention that Slavery wasn't the reason for the secession & resultant Civil War, anyway). Well that's just BS. I know people are trying to whitewash history & ignore slavery as having a huge part in starting the civil war, but it did. 4 states wrote Declarations of Causes for their secessions - Georgia, Mississippi, Texas, & South Carolina. You can read through them here www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html or read an analysis of them here www.civilwar.org/education/history/secession/. Either way you should notice slavery is mentioned in all of them & is one of the first things mentioned in 3 of them. It is mentioned in the second sentence of the Georgia document and it is a really long document. It goes on & on about Lincoln being the party of abolitionists & complaining how northern states are no longer returning escaped slaves as they are obligated to do & how they can't travel freely in the north with their slaves. It actually puts a price on the slaves - $3 billion if you are curious. Mississipii - ah, second sentence mentions slavery as well. Really Mississippi's is only about slavery...they value it at 4 billion. South Carolina goes on & on about the break from Britain & compares their break to that. It doesn't really get into slavery until later when it quotes the constituation Then it goes on about how the north is no longer fulfilling it's obligation to return escaped slaves & is even daring to prevent the transport of slaves through some states. I particularly like this paragraph They also mention Lincoln & how the north has clearly gone fully abolitionist & as a result is destructive to the slave-holding states. Texas - mentions slavery in like the fourth sentence. Says they were a slave-holding state when the joined the union & doesn't want to lose that right. Mentions the constitution...again north not returning slaves. Has this lovely paragraph Anyway...my point is it was very much about slavery. Yeah, there were other factors. But you just can't discount slavery as though it really wasn't a big issue...it was a huge issue.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Aug 27, 2015 11:57:00 GMT -5
Let's say some old white guy decides the N-word means great guy...so he starts going around using it all the time. It doesn't matter his intentions or what he believes the word means - people are still going to overwhelming see him as a racist.
That's kind of like the confederate flag. It honestly doesn't really matter what it means to you or why you fly it. A good portion of the country is just going to see it as racist.
Now if you don't care that you are perceived as a racist, then I guess it doesn't matter. But, don't complain about how others perceive the symbol you are choosing to wave around & believe you are somehow being misunderstood. Many see it as a racist symbol...and you are displaying it with full knowledge that it will insult others. That is a clear choice on your part & says something about you & it isn't just that you are proud of your southern heritage.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 27, 2015 12:01:04 GMT -5
Let's say some old white guy decides the N-word means great guy...so he starts going around using it all the time. It doesn't matter his intentions or what he believes the word means - people are still going to overwhelming see him as a racist.
That's kind of like the confederate flag. It honestly doesn't really matter what it means to you or why you fly it. A good portion of the country is just going to see it as racist.
Now if you don't care that you are perceived as a racist, then I guess it doesn't matter. But, don't complain about how others perceive the symbol you are choosing to wave around & believe you are somehow being misunderstood. Many see it as a racist symbol...and you are displaying it with full knowledge that it will insult others. That is a clear choice on your part & says something about you & it isn't just that you are proud of your southern heritage. precisely. this goes for all human behavior. maybe you are a really affectionate guy. maybe you like to hug and kiss women. but if you do it with strangers half your age, you are going to get called out on it. if you are OK with that, you go right ahead. keep doing it. but be aware that it puts you and your reputation at risk.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 18:49:47 GMT -5
The opposing side in a civil war is going to be treated differently from enemy soldiers in a war with foreigners. That doesn't change the fact that the south is one of the few peoples on the planet that have declared war on the union/United States.If you don't like the traitor label, fine. The confederates were enemy combatants though in a war they largely fought to protect the institution of slavery. If you want to celebrate that cool. It's still a free country. I think it makes you look like just as much of a jackass as a guy flying a flag of the Reich, but that's just me. Actually you have that backwards. The Union declared war on the Confederacy. I "don't like the traitor label" because it's inaccurate at best, and an insulting lie about them at worst. You are also incorrect about the reason they fought the war (most people nowadays are... they've bought into the "it was all {or mostly} about slavery" lies).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 18:52:15 GMT -5
[I guess it's escaped your notice that none of them were traitors... and most of them weren't slave owners (not to mention that Slavery wasn't the reason for the secession & resultant Civil War, anyway). Well that's just BS. ... Anyway...my point is it was very much about slavery. Yeah, there were other factors. But you just can't discount slavery as though it really wasn't a big issue...it was a huge issue. It's not BS. But feel free to believe that it was if you like. It is still a free country (more or less)... for now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 18:53:33 GMT -5
Yep. There are similarities between the two. Both are actual historic flags. Both flown by groups that believed dark skinned people were inferior. Both were later used as symbols by racist groups, and still are in use by racist groups today. Both made famous in a war that the group associated with the flag fired the first shot in. And, you know, there's still this; Sooo.... based on that picture, can we assume you hate the American flag and the flag of the State of California just as much? They are waving them too!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 18:55:35 GMT -5
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I'm going to save myself some typing. You were saying? You and I both know that I've never said hate groups didn't steal the flag and pervert it's meaning. That's on the hate groups though... don't blame the flag because it was misused. That'd be like blaming me because someone car-jacked me and then ran over your dog with what was my car.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 19:51:45 GMT -5
It was mostly about slavery and how abolishing the practice would economically impact the south which was heavily reliant on it. The states rights they were fighting for was predominately the right to keep the institution of slavery going. It wasn't. But that's a popular theory, apparently (even though much proof is available for those willing to dig through all the revisionist crap that's been piled on top of the truth to help hide the truth).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 19:56:50 GMT -5
So, why fly it after it was coopted by hate groups, if celebrating a bunch of guys fighting to keep black people in slavery wasn't already enough of a turn off?I, as a German descendant, wouldn't celebrate the flag of the Reich because I don't think that period of German history is worth celebrating. The fact that hate groups still use the flag makes it even less appealing. I largely view the confederate flag the same way. I would have less of an issue with folks flying this, however; [honking huge Stars and Bars (First "Official Flag" of the Confederacy) redacted] Why fly it? "Why not fly it?" is a better question. They (the "KKK") use the US "Stars and Stripes" too... why don't we stop flying that one? They use the Cross as well... why not stop displaying that symbol too? And the bolded has nothing to do with the Confederate flag... The Confederacy wasn't about slavery. Stop believing the revisionist propaganda.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 21:32:21 GMT -5
Sure it wasn't. If the north had been returning escaped slaves and never proposed abolition would the civil war have happened? I seriously doubt it. That makes it a war to protect slavery in my book. I see you also ignored the part about the stars and bars. If it's just a confederate pride thing why not fly the official flag of the confederate states? Why only the one that's been coopted by hate groups and was never the official flag of the confederate states in the first place? I didn't "ignore" the part about the Stars and Bars. phrased the way you phrased it " I would have less of an issue with folks flying this, however;", I didn't think it needed comment. If you'd like me to comment on it, however, I'll happily do so: I wouldn't be interested in flying that one because (just guessing) 90% of the population likely doesn't even know of it's existence... much less that it's the official flag of the Confederacy. And anyone that saw me "flying it" would be like: "I wonder what country he's from... that almost looks like our flag!" And it's not a "Confederate Pride thing"... it's a "Southern Pride thing". The Confederacy only lasted a few years. The ways of Southern life (which is what Southerners take pride in) have endured since the founding of our country... to this day. ETA: forgot to mention, your first paragraph leaves out numerous facts about the secession. If the north hadn't been unfairly taxing the south There wouldn't have been a secession. If the Federal Government hadn't been financially propping up the north at the expense of the south, there wouldn't have been a secession. If the Federal Government had kept it's nose out of State's Rights (as required by the Constitution), there wouldn't have been a secession. It the Federal Government had kept it's agreements with the southern States to protect commerce with other nations, there wouldn't have been a secession. And yes, if the Federal Government hadn't been moving to "anti-slavery", there wouldn't have been a secession. Slavery is just ONE element of why the south seceded.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 27, 2015 22:10:49 GMT -5
Wiki, might be pulling my leg, but according to it the designer of the flag Richard likes, did it in part to display the supremacy of the white man. I do not get the love of the Confederate flag.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America
The flag is also known as "the Stainless Banner" and was designed by William T. Thompson, a newspaper editor and writer based in Savannah, Georgia, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner.[1][2][4][5][6][7] The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field which took up a large part of the flag's design, although W.T. Thompson, the flag's designer, referred to his design as "The White Man's Flag".[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] In referring to the white field that comprised a large part of the flag's design elements, Thompson stated that its color symbolized the "supremacy of the white man":[8]
As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. — William T. Thompson, Daily Morning News, (April 23, 1863)[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 27, 2015 22:16:02 GMT -5
It is misguided pride or at least misguided love of symbols. I like SDG would not fly the third reich flag or even the current German flag to show my pride in my heritage and the good things about Germany. I am able to just talk about the cool things that are German like cars and food and have no need to shove a flag in someone's face pretending it is only about my pride in my heritage. I am sensitive to how many people feel about that period of history and even Germany in 2015.
Really, you are not capable of finding other ways to show pride in the South or the state you came from? You need to fly a short lived flag that symbolizes the desire of many to keep slaves as your statement of pride?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 22:32:01 GMT -5
Why is the battle standard of Lee's regiment a symbol of all things southern? It was used by a single regiment that fought under it to try and create a separate country where white folks would be free to own black folks. It was waived again by dixiecrats in support of Jim Crow laws and oppose Truman including a civil rights plank in the Democratic party platform. It was waived again by the KKK to oppose pretty much all things not white. Which part of that history are you proud of and celebrating by displaying that flag today? The racist part, the racist part, or the racist part? It's actually the Battle Flag for the Army of Tennessee. You are confusing that one with the one that they took down recently from the SC Confederate Memorial on the Capitol Grounds. But... that correction aside... Let's go over the rest of the flaws in your post. The KKK also waves the American flag. I don't see you (or anyone else) calling for it to be taken down. In the following picture (of their National Convention in 1948), if you look closely, you'll notice that the Dixiecrats ALSO waved the American Flag: (spoilered only due to size) Regarding it's use during the Civil War: It was flown by an army defending it's country from an invading army.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 22:41:29 GMT -5
It is misguided pride or at least misguided love of symbols. I like SDG would not fly the third reich flag or even the current German flag to show my pride in my heritage and the good things about Germany. I am able to just talk about the cool things that are German like cars and food and have no need to shove a flag in someone's face pretending it is only about my pride in my heritage. I am sensitive to how many people feel about that period of history and even Germany in 2015.
Really, you are not capable of finding other ways to show pride in the South or the state you came from? You need to fly a short lived flag that symbolizes the desire of many to keep slaves as your statement of pride?
I don't fly a flag that symbolizes that... so I cannot answer that question. Just because people believe that it does symbolize that, doesn't make it true that it does.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 22:56:36 GMT -5
The US flag also stands for treason against monarchy, freedom for all men, democracy. It's waived by racists, but it isn't only a historic symbol of racism. The only word is kind of important. When it was first designed, it didn't mean that. When it was first designed the North had slavery too. Most (if not all) of our Founding Fathers were slave owners. Are you saying things can have meanings other than for when they were first designed? If so then why your argument with me on this issue? Also worthy of note The Confederate Flag represented a reminder of why we broke from Britain. That's why it used the three same colors.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2015 23:46:26 GMT -5
True but the men who fought and died to end slavery in this country did so under the stars and stripes. The men they were fighting, that were defending slavery, did it under the confederate battle flag. The men who fought and died to stop the Reich did it under the stars and stripes. At one point it was a token of white slave owners with a flawed idea of freedom, but it's still a token now for a country where we have a much more inclusive idea of freedom. Confederate battle flags flew over exactly one war on the side that wanted to keep slavery alive. Since then it's been used by white supremacists and white southerners trying to extend segregation. It's a heritage of racism. If you want to celebrate that cool. I'm just saying I don't understand why a non racist would want to. Because, for the umpteenth time, it's not a flag of racism. You see it that way because you have bought into the propaganda.
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fishy999
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Post by fishy999 on Aug 28, 2015 0:57:25 GMT -5
One element that happens to be 99% of the other elements.
Since the topic is about shitheel Zimmerman- he called Obama a baboon today, and of course called the lunatic that shot the reporters a pansy- nevermind his gunning down an unarmed teenager. Take the moral high ground George- just the kind of person we need to hear from. Claims he can't find a job- first off that is bullshit and second where is that tiniest violin I can play for his plight.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2015 2:09:47 GMT -5
Which part is propaganda? The part where the confederates wanted to extend the institution of slavery? The part where racist dixiecrats waived it to oppose civil rights for blacks? The part where the KKK waived it while lynching blacks? The part where neo-nazis still waive it while spewing hate? They're all documented historical facts. Wanting them to be propaganda doesn't make them false. The "it was all about slavery" bit. That's propaganda, and a lot of the country is buying it... hook, line, and sinker. You must have missed where the dixiecrats wave the US flag too. You must have also missed where the KKK waves the US flag as well. You must have missed where the neo-Nazis wave the US flag also. (Neo-Nazi rally in Laguna Beach, CA) Do you notice that two of the flags are "Old Glory"? Or do they, in your opinion, for some odd reason, not count? Just out of curiosity... which flag is this little Hitler Wannabe proudly holding? The fact that those groups that you have such a problem with, all use the US flag as well is ALSO "well documented fact" Where's your outcry for the US flag to be done away with because it represents racism and it's history represents slavery?
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