Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 9, 2015 23:11:12 GMT -5
I found this on another proboards message board tonight. The thread was titled "I racist". I hope it is ok to copy the entire "sermon" here, as I think it is important. If a mod says it must be cut off, due to length, or cannot be copied from another proboards just remove it. I do not know how I even found it, lol, but most comments on the thread were from black members and they overwhelmingly agreed with the premise. I think it is worth discussing here, so here you go: The message board post that reproduces the article is viewable here.
The original article is viewable in its entirety here.
Due to the great length of the article, and in order to respect the copyright, it's best that we not reproduce it fully here. All readers are nevertheless encouraged to read it.
For "tl;dr" readers: The author of the article is John Metta, a pastor at the Bethel Congregational United Church of Christ. The article is a missive on the nature of institutional racism, the differing perceptions of white and black Americans on racism, and Mr. Metta's thoughts on why a perceptual disconnect exists.
He highlights a single passage in the middle of the missive, presumably to emphasize its centrality to his argument:But here is the irony, here’s the thing that all the angry Black people know, and no calmly debating White people want to admit: The entire discussion of race in America centers around the protection of White feelings. The missive concludes with the statement:As for me, I will no longer be silent. I’m going to try to speak kindly, and softly, but that’s gonna be hard. Because it’s getting harder and harder for me to think about the protection of White people’s feelings when White people don’t seem to care at all about the loss of so many Black lives. Thanks to VB for bringing it to our attention.
- Virgil (Mod)
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 9, 2015 23:14:05 GMT -5
We have covered many of the topics covered in this message, but have few black members here to set the record straight, from the black point of view. I have to really sit down and think about this. A lot of good points here.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 9, 2015 23:22:09 GMT -5
I disagree with the bolded statement. I think many people are racist, but I do believe overall the degree of racism continues to be worse in the South overall than the North. In NJ, Montclair is very well known as one of the most diverse cities in all of NJ and likely the US. Diverse as in racially diverse and somewhat economically as well.
It is unfortunate the northern aunt is hurt, but she might be hurt because she knows in her heart she does have some racist thoughts and hoped no one really noticed. After all, she is a good person with black family members. LOL.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2015 23:40:28 GMT -5
It's a good article.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 9, 2015 23:43:37 GMT -5
Good article. It hits some very important points.
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ktunes
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Post by ktunes on Jul 10, 2015 0:42:32 GMT -5
i lose a little on the shift to 3rd...
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Post by bean29 on Jul 10, 2015 4:59:55 GMT -5
I find it hard to swallow. We elected a black president, so at least 50% of us are not completely racist. I have black neighbors, have had black co-workers, have black friends and my niece is dating a black man. My cousin has a bi-racial grandchild. The owner of my company has 2 black step grandchildren, a partner in a CPA firm I deal with has 3 bi-racial grandchildren. Milwaukee may be the most segregated city in the US, but I live in a Milwaukee County suburb that has (I think) 30% minority residents.
My kids friendships really seem to be colorblind and blind to religious differences. My daughter has indian friends, black friends, Muslim friends, Sikh friends, Mexican Friends, puerto rican friends and white friends. Our kids who grew up in an imperfect changing America our our future and they see the people not the differences.
As our families grow and include individuals of more diverse backgrounds we become less willing to allow discrimination and racism.
I have very little ability or power to affect conditions in the inner city. How we fund inner city schools is lacking (state support would provide more $$ resources). Public transportation and job creation need attention too.
I can't remember when I didn't associate the confederate flag with racism, but John Stewart did instigate us to speak up and demand change.
The events of the last year have also focused us on disparity in how drug convictions are handled. It may take another 10-15 years but we will get there.
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 10, 2015 6:37:35 GMT -5
This reminds me of my friend, Clara, who is black discussing with me her hurt because none of her three sons married black women. My feeling was that she raised color blind children and she should be proud of that. Her feeling was that I couldn't understand her hurt because she felt, as a black woman, her sons were rejecting black women. She's right, I can't understand her or her feelings about it. Her daughter in laws are Mexican, Filipino, and white. She loves her grandchildren deeply but still feels something I can never truly understand.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 10, 2015 7:06:23 GMT -5
This reminds me of my friend, Clara, who is black discussing with me her hurt because none of her three sons married black women. My feeling was that she raised color blind children and she should be proud of that. Her feeling was that I couldn't understand her hurt because she felt, as a black woman, her sons were rejecting black women. She's right, I can't understand her or her feelings about it. Her daughter in laws are Mexican, Filipino, and white. She loves her grandchildren deeply but still feels something I can never truly understand. I got slammed soooo hard on the old message board when I suggested that black people very much keep some of the segregation themselves. Colorblindness can not be going just one way. I was also called a racist on here when I said that instead of keep talking and talking about racism we need to stop. Not bc the real racism doesn't exist but bc talking about perceived racism is making things worse.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 10, 2015 7:11:07 GMT -5
Yet Clara is the nicest sweetest woman I know. But it made me wonder if she saw me as white first then as her friend.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 10, 2015 8:49:44 GMT -5
Yet Clara is the nicest sweetest woman I know. But it made me wonder if she saw me as white first then as her friend. I would imagine Clara sees you as white and her friend at the same time, just as the article author sees his aunt and white at the same time. There can be no denying the color of our friends' skin (or other physical differences) are different than what we see of ourselves in our mirrors. It is how we treat each other after that nanosecond of acknowledgment that matters.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 10, 2015 9:35:09 GMT -5
I find it hard to swallow. We elected a black president, so at least 50% of us are not completely racist. I have black neighbors, have had black co-workers, have black friends and my niece is dating a black man. My cousin has a bi-racial grandchild. The owner of my company has 2 black step grandchildren, a partner in a CPA firm I deal with has 3 bi-racial grandchildren. Milwaukee may be the most segregated city in the US, but I live in a Milwaukee County suburb that has (I think) 30% minority residents. My kids friendships really seem to be colorblind and blind to religious differences. My daughter has indian friends, black friends, Muslim friends, Sikh friends, Mexican Friends, puerto rican friends and white friends. Our kids who grew up in an imperfect changing America our our future and they see the people not the differences. As our families grow and include individuals of more diverse backgrounds we become less willing to allow discrimination and racism. I have very little ability or power to affect conditions in the inner city. How we fund inner city schools is lacking (state support would provide more $$ resources). Public transportation and job creation need attention too. I can't remember when I didn't associate the confederate flag with racism, but John Stewart did instigate us to speak up and demand change. The events of the last year have also focused us on disparity in how drug convictions are handled. It may take another 10-15 years but we will get there. You missed the point of his article - he said that when he starts to talk about race, white people get defensive because they, themselves are not racist, and because they don't see the day to day racism that black people can see. He and his wife have been looking for a new church for their family (3 small kids) and he said while he liked one particular church, it was mostly white, and his wife noticed that, while his kids were playing with the rest of the kids, the mother of one of the little white girls got a disturbed look on her face when his son started playing with her little girl. This is a nice church, with good Christian people who would no doubt all (including this woman) state they are not racist, and yet that happened. We (whites) don't see that kind of subtle racism. Yes, overt racism has significantly declined, but I agree with the author (and my friend) that subtle racism is still all around us.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 10, 2015 9:41:20 GMT -5
Personally, I have decided to make a concerted effort to look at it from the black point of view, without getting lost in the semantics of being white. I have a feeling I will not be resting easily over the results, and that is my concern, but will give it a good effort.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 10, 2015 9:50:28 GMT -5
The article makes really good points on racism still existing. I've had those conversations with people where they insist racism is a thing of the past. It is still alive & well, but mostly just much more subtle.
Where I sort of disagree is that the author says you can't have the conversation with white people/northerners because they see as an attack, as though they themselves are being accused of being racist. I don't think that is why many people argue racism doesn't exist. I don't think it is self-preservation. I think it is because they truly don't see it, so they don't believe it. They don't feel racism in their hearts, they don't see signs of racism, so you can't convince them that it is still there.
I was like that. I went to a high school with like 5 black kids. I never saw signs of racism, never saw those kids treated different, never heard anyone say anything bad. So I would have argued racism doesn't exist. And where I grew up I was probably 99% right. When the minority is that tiny & they fit into upper-middle class just fine, then there isn't a lot of opportunities for people to display racism, so it might as well be dead.
My whole world view flipped when I move to TX & lived in a community were whites were the minority & worked at a company that was 90% black. I realized I was wrong & racism still totally exists. But, it took living there & seeing it & hearing stories to believe it.
I think for a lot of people there are some things you have to live through & experience to truly understand. Trying to convince someone that grew up in the north where there is less racism & where there are areas with very few black people that racism exists may be one of those things.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 10, 2015 11:01:17 GMT -5
Interesting.
Here's the thing. When discussions of race come up, it's all about "the white people vs. the black people." You're grouped into your race category and pit against the other race category. I think this is fundamentally a flawed way to have these kinds of discussions.
I'll gladly take responsibility for my own actions and attitudes, but I will not let you group me, my history, and my beliefs in with a massive group of others and have you label us as a "problem" in society. How is that any different than what's claimed in reverse?
I think that's the problem with these "discussions on race" is the brush is too broad and everyone stands up saying "I'm not like that."
The article kind of touches on this. But the argument that "you're racist whether you think you are nor not" is hard to prove and disingenuous. You don't know me and I don't know you.
And I think a lot of these kinds of discussions ignore the reality. The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and blacks kill far more blacks than whites do.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 10, 2015 11:08:09 GMT -5
Interesting.
Here's the thing. When discussions of race come up, it's all about "the white people vs. the black people." You're grouped into your race category and pit against the other race category. I think this is fundamentally a flawed way to have these kinds of discussions.
I'll gladly take responsibility for my own actions and attitudes, but I will not let you group me, my history, and my beliefs in with a massive group of others and have you label us as a "problem" in society. How is that any different than what's claimed in reverse?
I think that's the problem with these "discussions on race" is the brush is too broad and everyone stands up saying "I'm not like that."
The article kind of touches on this. But the argument that "you're racist whether you think you are nor not" is hard to prove and disingenuous. You don't know me and I don't know you.
And I think a lot of these kinds of discussions ignore the reality. The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and blacks kill far more blacks than whites do. And whites kill far more whites than blacks do. You did exactly what the article said whites often do: you pointed out black are killers yet no mention of whites are killers too.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 10, 2015 11:11:05 GMT -5
Interesting.
Here's the thing. When discussions of race come up, it's all about "the white people vs. the black people." You're grouped into your race category and pit against the other race category. I think this is fundamentally a flawed way to have these kinds of discussions.
I'll gladly take responsibility for my own actions and attitudes, but I will not let you group me, my history, and my beliefs in with a massive group of others and have you label us as a "problem" in society. How is that any different than what's claimed in reverse?
I think that's the problem with these "discussions on race" is the brush is too broad and everyone stands up saying "I'm not like that."
The article kind of touches on this. But the argument that "you're racist whether you think you are nor not" is hard to prove and disingenuous. You don't know me and I don't know you.
And I think a lot of these kinds of discussions ignore the reality. The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and blacks kill far more blacks than whites do. And whites kill far more whites than blacks do. You did exactly what the article said whites often do: you pointed out black are killers yet no mention of whites are killers too. Semantics. I thought I covered that when I said "inter racial crime is rare." Last I checked, blacks killing whites is inter racial crime.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 10, 2015 11:50:40 GMT -5
And whites kill far more whites than blacks do. You did exactly what the article said whites often do: you pointed out black are killers yet no mention of whites are killers too. Semantics. I thought I covered that when I said "inter racial crime is rare." Last I checked, blacks killing whites is inter racial crime. Why didn't you write 'The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and whites kill far more whites than blacks do.' Your emphasis in the sentence was on blacks and not on whites. Why did you do that?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 10, 2015 13:13:42 GMT -5
Semantics. I thought I covered that when I said "inter racial crime is rare." Last I checked, blacks killing whites is inter racial crime. Why didn't you write 'The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and whites kill far more whites than blacks do.' Your emphasis in the sentence was on blacks and not on whites. Why did you do that? Congratulations for totally missing the point.
It should be obvious, but I'll go ahead and explain it to you.
The author of the article is black discussing the views and opinions of white people, and specifically mentions the "growth of hate groups in America" and uses several examples of whites killing blacks as illustrations of his points.
Had the article been about blacks killing whites, I would have said the same thing, but it wasn't.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 10, 2015 13:17:08 GMT -5
i lose a little on the shift to 3rd... I still need to replace my gear shifter to one more useful for the track and regular driving.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 10, 2015 13:20:57 GMT -5
The article makes really good points on racism still existing. I've had those conversations with people where they insist racism is a thing of the past. It is still alive & well, but mostly just much more subtle.
Where I sort of disagree is that the author says you can't have the conversation with white people/northerners because they see as an attack, as though they themselves are being accused of being racist. I don't think that is why many people argue racism doesn't exist. I don't think it is self-preservation. I think it is because they truly don't see it, so they don't believe it. They don't feel racism in their hearts, they don't see signs of racism, so you can't convince them that it is still there.
I was like that. I went to a high school with like 5 black kids. I never saw signs of racism, never saw those kids treated different, never heard anyone say anything bad. So I would have argued racism doesn't exist. And where I grew up I was probably 99% right. When the minority is that tiny & they fit into upper-middle class just fine, then there isn't a lot of opportunities for people to display racism, so it might as well be dead.
My whole world view flipped when I move to TX & lived in a community were whites were the minority & worked at a company that was 90% black. I realized I was wrong & racism still totally exists. But, it took living there & seeing it & hearing stories to believe it.
I think for a lot of people there are some things you have to live through & experience to truly understand. Trying to convince someone that grew up in the north where there is less racism & where there are areas with very few black people that racism exists may be one of those things. I think your points work as well for sexism, which still is very much alive, ageism as well. Unless you live it, more than once sometimes, it may be in one's blind spot. I am a northerner and very aware racism, sexism, and ageism are still here. In some areas, workplaces, there is very little and others it is almost rampant. Most of the US falls between the two. MHO.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jul 10, 2015 13:25:45 GMT -5
This reminds me of my friend, Clara, who is black discussing with me her hurt because none of her three sons married black women. My feeling was that she raised color blind children and she should be proud of that. Her feeling was that I couldn't understand her hurt because she felt, as a black woman, her sons were rejecting black women. She's right, I can't understand her or her feelings about it. Her daughter in laws are Mexican, Filipino, and white. She loves her grandchildren deeply but still feels something I can never truly understand. Because those in a minority culture worry about not banding together. I just watched Chris Rock's documentary on black hair and weaves. If you get a chance I recommend it. It does touch on some of the culture than might make her think that way even though she wants her kids to be color blind.
If you see any situation as win/lose instead of win/win, there will always be issues in one's life. Because she would see it as bigger win or smaller loss, for one of her boys to marry a black woman, she herself if likely seeing it as a personal rejection of her - a black woman. MO
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jul 10, 2015 13:28:50 GMT -5
Interesting.
Here's the thing. When discussions of race come up, it's all about "the white people vs. the black people." You're grouped into your race category and pit against the other race category. I think this is fundamentally a flawed way to have these kinds of discussions.
IMO the issues are really about race anymore. Race is just the easiest ways to divide the groups. I think the issues today really revolve more around poverty. The article talks about segregation in NY & upward mobility of white people. But, I would think really the segregation is caused because blacks are disproportionally more likely to be in poverty, which in turn puts them in different neighborhoods & different schools. I also think that white people living in generational poverty have just as much trouble with upward mobility as blacks.
The problem is education & poverty that keeps the groups segregated. But, I don't know how you fix that. You can't just have poor people living in the same neighborhoods or sending them to the same schools. That's been tried over & over & always fails. I honestly believe if you find a way to fix generational poverty, you end the view of us vs. them, & you end racism. I just don't know how you do it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 10, 2015 13:40:59 GMT -5
Yes, I agree. I think the lack of upward mobility is more a function of poverty than race.
And I think that plays into policing as well.
I think police in high crime, predominantly poor areas are naturally "tougher" and more likely to "hassle" people.
The problem is those neighborhoods are also predominantly black.
I've seen studies that show having the police force match the communities they police doesn't help much in that regard.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 10, 2015 13:46:52 GMT -5
This reminds me of my friend, Clara, who is black discussing with me her hurt because none of her three sons married black women. My feeling was that she raised color blind children and she should be proud of that. Her feeling was that I couldn't understand her hurt because she felt, as a black woman, her sons were rejecting black women. She's right, I can't understand her or her feelings about it. Her daughter in laws are Mexican, Filipino, and white. She loves her grandchildren deeply but still feels something I can never truly understand. I got slammed soooo hard on the old message board when I suggested that black people very much keep some of the segregation themselves. Colorblindness can not be going just one way. I was also called a racist on here when I said that instead of keep talking and talking about racism we need to stop. Not bc the real racism doesn't exist but bc talking about perceived racism is making things worse. I'm not sure if we should stop talking about it, or talk about it in a different way. I do agree that the current way, as presented in the article of "you're racist even if you don't think you're racist" isn't constructive. It automatically puts people on the defensive. Just look at bean29's response, she listed our black president and all the black people she knows, an inherently defensive response.
It's a way of talking about this kind of thing that automatically puts people on guard and promotes a "us and them" mentality." So I think we need to either stop talking about it, or change the discussion.
Is it any surprise when you make bitter accusations that people are either dismissive or defensive? Especially over things they have no direct control over?
As I said, I'll take responsibility for my own actions, but I'm not going to take responsibility for 300+ years of systemic discrimination, the vast majority of it which occurred before I was even born.
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Jul 10, 2015 14:28:10 GMT -5
I think going forward that more of the focus needs to be on unconscious bias, because that's how most racism, sexism, ageism, etc presents itself these days. And being aware of privilege helps too, and helps you combat it. It's not to say that any particular individual is to blame for their privilege, but understanding that you have it can help improve your empathy for other people's situations, and hopefully help figure out how to combat it in the long run.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2015 14:36:02 GMT -5
I got slammed soooo hard on the old message board when I suggested that black people very much keep some of the segregation themselves. Colorblindness can not be going just one way. I was also called a racist on here when I said that instead of keep talking and talking about racism we need to stop. Not bc the real racism doesn't exist but bc talking about perceived racism is making things worse. I'm not sure if we should stop talking about it, or talk about it in a different way. I do agree that the current way, as presented in the article of "you're racist even if you don't think you're racist" isn't constructive. It automatically puts people on the defensive. Just look at bean29's response, she listed our black president and all the black people she knows, an inherently defensive response.
It's a way of talking about this kind of thing that automatically puts people on guard and promotes a "us and them" mentality." So I think we need to either stop talking about it, or change the discussion.
Is it any surprise when you make bitter accusations that people are either dismissive or defensive? Especially over things they have no direct control over?
As I said, I'll take responsibility for my own actions, but I'm not going to take responsibility for 300+ years of systemic discrimination, the vast majority of it which occurred before I was even born.
I'd have to go back and read the article again to be sure, but that's not what I got out of it. It was my understanding that the author was saying that sometimes when a particular person isn't racist, they don't believe racism still exists and doesn't recognize it for what it is when they see it. And because they don't believe it or recognize it, it's hard to have a conversation with them about racism without getting frustrated.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 10, 2015 15:18:20 GMT -5
Why didn't you write 'The truth is inter racial crime is rare, and whites kill far more whites than blacks do.' Your emphasis in the sentence was on blacks and not on whites. Why did you do that? Congratulations for totally missing the point.
It should be obvious, but I'll go ahead and explain it to you.
The author of the article is black discussing the views and opinions of white people, and specifically mentions the "growth of hate groups in America" and uses several examples of whites killing blacks as illustrations of his points.
Had the article been about blacks killing whites, I would have said the same thing, but it wasn't.
Is that all you got out of the article? Blacks mostly kill blacks? If it is, we do still have a racism problem in the U.S. and blacks are not the only racists. I hear it time and time again about blacks killing blacks and how they are killers and thugs. But rarely ever are whites killing whites classified as killers and thugs, especially when it involves mass murders. As the author stated, when a white person commits mass murder, the first thing out of the press and many white people is the guy must be mentally ill. But when a black person kills multiple people, then they are just killers and thugs. Never are they mentally ill. All this chatter from many white people about blacks killing blacks and what is America going to do about it. But few words about the problem of whites killing whites from those same white people as if it doesn't happen. Why is that?
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Jul 10, 2015 15:33:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure if we should stop talking about it, or talk about it in a different way. I do agree that the current way, as presented in the article of "you're racist even if you don't think you're racist" isn't constructive. It automatically puts people on the defensive. Just look at bean29's response, she listed our black president and all the black people she knows, an inherently defensive response.
It's a way of talking about this kind of thing that automatically puts people on guard and promotes a "us and them" mentality." So I think we need to either stop talking about it, or change the discussion.
Is it any surprise when you make bitter accusations that people are either dismissive or defensive? Especially over things they have no direct control over?
As I said, I'll take responsibility for my own actions, but I'm not going to take responsibility for 300+ years of systemic discrimination, the vast majority of it which occurred before I was even born.
I'd have to go back and read the article again to be sure, but that's not what I got out of it. It was my understanding that the author was saying that sometimes when a particular person isn't racist, they don't believe racism still exists and doesn't recognize it for what it is when they see it. And because they don't believe it or recognize it, it's hard to have a conversation with them about racism without getting frustrated. That's pretty much what I got out of it too. I'm a white girl in the south, I know it exists still. I try to not propagate it and teach my children to judge people as individuals. I don't like talking about it not because it hurts my feelings but because I don't know what else I can do. I've actually spent more time being disappointed in people I know since the SC killings and the gay marriage ruling than I ever have in my life. Thankfully, they're a small section of the people I know but it still makes me sad. I also learned from this article that Khan from Star Trek was from India. I wouldn't have guessed that one if I'd had to. Not from the actors I've seen in the role.
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Angel!
Senior Associate
Politics Admin
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 11:44:08 GMT -5
Posts: 10,722
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Post by Angel! on Jul 10, 2015 16:58:49 GMT -5
I found it a little odd to use a 45+ year old show as proof that racism still exists. It was a whole different world back then.
ETA - I just realized the author was using a 2 year old movie. Still pretty stupid when the movie was based on a 45+ year old show that did have the character Kahn in the original series & he pretty much looked white. They basically replicated what was created over 45 years ago, not sure that is really a good example of racism today.
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