Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 12:10:55 GMT -5
They don't acknowledge that racism exist at all or they don't agree that it exist as much as you believe it to exist? I'll be honest, I don't really engage in frank conversations about racial inequality in this country with people that I know I am not going to see eye to eye on. The conservatives in question, the ones I referenced, are not people that I can have a meaningful debate with, not and maintain any type of civil relationship (and since they largely family members - I need to maintain some semblance of civility). They have made other comments to me, that frankly, were blatantly racist, so whether or not they agree racism is still a problem or not is immaterial to me. So basically in your view, anybody who disagrees with you is not worth having the conversation with on the subject? I forget the study, and if I remember I'll look it up later...but basically it showed when a person feels strongly about an issue, that it can pull a group into feeling more strongly than they would as individuals about an issue. It's one of the dangers with group think, in that the more extremes of the position tend to pull the more moderate on the position toward their view because they are only surrounded by people who similarly. It might be immaterial to you what they think about the issue, but maybe you are guilty of some of the same issues of surrounding yourself too much with people who think like you do that it becomes your reality.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 12:14:13 GMT -5
The reality is that had he been a white candidate, going to a church for as long as he did, with a white pastor who said the equivalent message...he wouldn't have gotten the chance to make the speech. i fervently disagree. sorry, i just do. the speech stands on it's own. I just don't see it. "White culture," if you can call it that will often attempt to go to extremes not to be associated with somebody who might be considered racist; but I'm not sure other cultures (based on skin color) feel or promote that same feelings. I just don't see AA giving President Obama a pass on that issue if his and his pastors skin color were different. I definitely don't see him getting the same percentage of votes over Clinton in that case either.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 12:23:00 GMT -5
Another uncomfortable reality that many people don't want to discuss is that racism isn't a one way street, but too many people openly justify non-white people teaching a mistrust of white people to their kids while shouting down or demeaning white people who do the same. Now I'm sure somebody will say they don't do that, but that kind of goes to the point of the article. It's not just about having a discussion about issues, it's about having an honest discussion about it. I think the author makes some valid points, but he fails to recognize his own bias in the situation. I've already said there is a difference between real vs. perceived racism, and if you expect to see it, you will see it whether it's real or not. Some things are silly, like people claiming if a woman pulls her purse closer to her when a non-white person gets on the elevator it might be because of racism; but if that same woman does it when a while person gets on the elevator, nothing is thought of it. We condition people to think differently about situations, so it's no wonder why some people see racism as so rampant. It's like somebody with PTSD seeing danger everywhere, even when it really doesn't exist. sure, racism is two way. so is sexism. but you have to be completely ignoring the history of these things to miss the POWER RELATIONS part of it. when racism happens in our society, throughout it's short and colorful history, it happened in a way which elevated whites at the expense of blacks. ditto for women. so for white guys like me to now whine about the injustice of merely being called out for that (still owning the privilege, but having to pay for it in criticism) just ADDS to the criticism, imo. we need to grow up and accept that we are indeed quite fortunate to have never had to endure what women and blacks have had to endure, and have some respect and appreciation for their existential pain. once we do that, we can start living as equals. until then, however, we are going to be treated as inferior for our failure to acknowledge it, by some. So your answer seems to be to justify racism toward white people, and expect them to just deal with it to balance out the "power relations?" If somebody complains about it, then basically say they don't have respect and appreciation for the existential pain of other skin colors? Really? You don't see an issue with that at all? As far as being treated as inferior by some, who are those "some?" You can't have it both ways to say that racism is wrong and we need to try and work on dealing with inequality that stemmed from racism in the past, while in the same breath not calling out racism or mistrust of white people for no good reason (and no the past is not a good reason for mistrust of white people to be taught even if far too many people think it is). As far as white males never having to endure what women and AA have had to endure, are we talking present day or historical? See, I don't care what privilege a person has or doesn't have when it comes to them exhibiting racism. Even if a person doesn't have "privilege," it doesn't excuse them for their racist attitudes.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jul 15, 2015 12:41:20 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I don't really engage in frank conversations about racial inequality in this country with people that I know I am not going to see eye to eye on. The conservatives in question, the ones I referenced, are not people that I can have a meaningful debate with, not and maintain any type of civil relationship (and since they largely family members - I need to maintain some semblance of civility). They have made other comments to me, that frankly, were blatantly racist, so whether or not they agree racism is still a problem or not is immaterial to me. So basically in your view, anybody who disagrees with you is not worth having the conversation with on the subject? I forget the study, and if I remember I'll look it up later...but basically it showed when a person feels strongly about an issue, that it can pull a group into feeling more strongly than they would as individuals about an issue. It's one of the dangers with group think, in that the more extremes of the position tend to pull the more moderate on the position toward their view because they are only surrounded by people who similarly. It might be immaterial to you what they think about the issue, but maybe you are guilty of some of the same issues of surrounding yourself too much with people who think like you do that it becomes your reality. No. My view is that when you refer to black people as n***ers and maintain that you "just don't think that they are as smart as white people", I am not going to try to engage you in a meaningful discussion on race. If you want to have a meaningful debate and we disagree, I will happily listen. However, if you are just going to spout racist asshattery, sorry, no, I am not going to waste my time. If that makes me a horrible, close minded person, so be it.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 12:51:54 GMT -5
So basically in your view, anybody who disagrees with you is not worth having the conversation with on the subject? I forget the study, and if I remember I'll look it up later...but basically it showed when a person feels strongly about an issue, that it can pull a group into feeling more strongly than they would as individuals about an issue. It's one of the dangers with group think, in that the more extremes of the position tend to pull the more moderate on the position toward their view because they are only surrounded by people who similarly. It might be immaterial to you what they think about the issue, but maybe you are guilty of some of the same issues of surrounding yourself too much with people who think like you do that it becomes your reality. No. My view is that when you refer to black people as n***ers and maintain that you "just don't think that they are as smart as white people", I am not going to try to engage you in a meaningful discussion on race. If you want to have a meaningful debate and we disagree, I will happily listen. However, if you are just going to spout racist asshattery, sorry, no, I am not going to waste my time. If that makes me a horrible, close minded person, so be it. So the only white conservatives you know in your area use that language? Do you think that's indicative of the whole country or do you think that people who use that language and really believe that are more outliers of the norm? Maybe a better question to ask is who do you think is more accepted in the mainstream: white people who act and talk that way or non-white people who act and talk in a similar fashion...or do you think all people who think and talk that way are treated the same way by society in general? Is racism a problem when anybody is racist or is it only a problem when a large percentage of people are racist?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 15, 2015 13:02:14 GMT -5
i fervently disagree. sorry, i just do. the speech stands on it's own. I just don't see it. "White culture," if you can call it that will often attempt to go to extremes not to be associated with somebody who might be considered racist; but I'm not sure other cultures (based on skin color) feel or promote that same feelings. I just don't see AA giving President Obama a pass on that issue if his and his pastors skin color were different. I definitely don't see him getting the same percentage of votes over Clinton in that case either. if Obama were white and gave the same speech (minus the personal details, of course) i think it would be received the same way. Kennedy made some great speeches on this subject and others like it. so did Johnson. so did Reagan. i don't think it matters who the speaker is, any more. but i think it is very interesting that you seem equally convinced, otherwise.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 15, 2015 13:09:08 GMT -5
sure, racism is two way. so is sexism. but you have to be completely ignoring the history of these things to miss the POWER RELATIONS part of it. when racism happens in our society, throughout it's short and colorful history, it happened in a way which elevated whites at the expense of blacks. ditto for women. so for white guys like me to now whine about the injustice of merely being called out for that (still owning the privilege, but having to pay for it in criticism) just ADDS to the criticism, imo. we need to grow up and accept that we are indeed quite fortunate to have never had to endure what women and blacks have had to endure, and have some respect and appreciation for their existential pain. once we do that, we can start living as equals. until then, however, we are going to be treated as inferior for our failure to acknowledge it, by some. So your answer seems to be to justify racism toward white people, and expect them to just deal with it to balance out the "power relations?" just the opposite. i think that people who have enjoyed the privilege of being white or male should openly acknowledge that fact. it is nothing to apologize for, any more than sunshine and rain is. it is our heritage. but i also think that along with that, we should make an earnest EFFORT to extend those same PRIVILEGES to people of color and women.If somebody complains about it, then basically say they don't have respect and appreciation for the existential pain of other skin colors? Really? You don't see an issue with that at all? no, not really. and yes, i see a very big problem with it. that is elitism, and i am very much against it.As far as being treated as inferior by some, who are those "some?" You can't have it both ways to say that racism is wrong and we need to try and work on dealing with inequality that stemmed from racism in the past, while in the same breath not calling out racism or mistrust of white people for no good reason (and no the past is not a good reason for mistrust of white people to be taught even if far too many people think it is). As far as white males never having to endure what women and AA have had to endure, are we talking present day or historical? if you are engaging in elitism, i am perfectly within my rights to call you out for it. that is not class warfare. that is calling a spade a spade. ditto for sexism and racism. and if i happen to think i am a bit above you for that, i think that is EXCUSABLE, so long as you persist in your devilishness.See, I don't care what privilege a person has or doesn't have when it comes to them exhibiting racism. Even if a person doesn't have "privilege," it doesn't excuse them for their racist attitudes. i disagree. i think it is entirely excusable if the target of the racism is a racist. i think it is utterly inexcusable to say that "white people" are inferior for reasons of racism. i don't think it is inexcusable to call out racists and elitists for racism, and to imply or directly state they are inferior because of it.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 15, 2015 13:13:28 GMT -5
to answer your other question: the "some" are those educated and aware enough to see the situation for what it is: part of a continuum from a time where blacks and women were chattel to today, which- though vastly better- is still less than perfect.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Jul 15, 2015 13:36:56 GMT -5
No. My view is that when you refer to black people as n***ers and maintain that you "just don't think that they are as smart as white people", I am not going to try to engage you in a meaningful discussion on race. If you want to have a meaningful debate and we disagree, I will happily listen. However, if you are just going to spout racist asshattery, sorry, no, I am not going to waste my time. If that makes me a horrible, close minded person, so be it. So the only white conservatives you know in your area use that language? Do you think that's indicative of the whole country or do you think that people who use that language and really believe that are more outliers of the norm? Maybe a better question to ask is who do you think is more accepted in the mainstream: white people who act and talk that way or non-white people who act and talk in a similar fashion...or do you think all people who think and talk that way are treated the same way by society in general? Is racism a problem when anybody is racist or is it only a problem when a large percentage of people are racist? Again. I don't engage in a ton of face to face discussions about race. With either liberals, or conservatives. My personal opinion? I think that far more people probably have negative opinions based on someones race than will typically say so out loud. The examples above probably only came about because I am, sadly, related to the people in question. I think people are more prone to say shit like that to family. And no, neither instance was done in a joking manner, they were both totally serious (not that that would really matter, at least not to me). When I pushed back, they insisted, they didn't mean ALL black people, just the ones that "acted a certain way." Sorry if I don't totally buy that explanation. white people who act and talk that way or non-white people who act and talk in a similar fashion...or do you think all people who think and talk that way are treated the same way by society in general?
Are we talking apples to apples here? White people using slurs against non-white people, and non-white people using slurs against whites? or are you referring to the use of one specific slur and how there is a double standard regarding which race says it? If it is the first - I honestly don't hear a ton of racial slurs in the course of my day to day. I am pretty sure if my black co-workers started referring to me by white slurs, it would be frowned upon. Would it be as frowned upon as the reverse? No, probably not. That being said....I literally can't imagine anyone doing that. I honestly don't care that there would likely be a double standard in this scenario. There is just not the same history of violence and oppression attached to racial slurs against white people, and those against non-whites. If you are referring to the second - While I don't think it is necessarily a great idea for groups to try to "reclaim" hurtful words, if they want to try, whatever. It may not be equitable, but there is definitely a different dynamic at play when a group self-refers, then to when it is used against them. Is racism a problem when anybody is racist or is it only a problem when a large percentage of people are racist?
In general I would say it is always a problem. How big of a problem does depend on the size of the influence. I don't happen to think that racism is only currently being propagated by a few lone bigots. Instances of overt, obvious, racism, are surely less prevalent than in the past. But I think that is more a factor of people knowing how they will be viewed by others if they actually say, or do, blatantly racist things, than a true belief that black or white, we are all equal. I think it is a fallacy to point to the fact that we no longer have slavery, or condone lynching, that we elected a black president, and say - woo hoo! racism is totally fixed. I tend to think people are just better at hiding it. When we talk about racism in this country, we are talking about a practice, and a belief system, that stretches back to the founding of the country, and beyond. I don't think that is something that simply goes away over night. To think that hundreds of years of racial oppression, and racist thought, are just going to disappear because 50 years ago a legal body FORCED a good portion of the country to treat blacks as legal equals, seems a little naive to me. Is it getting better? Yes, I absolutely think it is getting better. But just because something is getting better, doesn't mean it is no longer still a problem.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 15, 2015 15:43:28 GMT -5
I can't talk as a black person, but as a woman I can say if a male co-worker came up to me and grabbed my ass and asked me what I was doing after work tonight I would respond in a very negative way, because I've experienced male harassment in my career. And it wasn't that long ago that the male bosses thought they had carte blanche to fondle and even have sex with their female employees. So I would respond very forcefully, probably with a slap followed by a trip to HR, and my company would almost certainly fire him.
But what if a woman fondled a male co-worker's ass and asked him what he was doing after work? How would the man feel? Would he be as outraged as the woman was? Or would he be more likely to laugh it off?
Is it wrong that the woman is more highly offended than the man? Should the woman say to herself "well, this is just one man who is being a jerk, but I need to remember that most men aren't like this anymore, and I need to just laugh and let this go?"
I don't think men and women would look at this situation the same way. Right or wrong, we all carry around baggage from our cultural history, and not so long ago, women were property of their fathers, husbands or brothers, relegated to domestic work or low wage jobs. Yes society has changed, but we haven't completely changed, and no one has forgotten what it used to be like.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 18:37:43 GMT -5
i disagree. i think it is entirely excusable if the target of the racism is a racist. i think it is utterly inexcusable to say that "white people" are inferior for reasons of racism. i don't think it is inexcusable to call out racists and elitists for racism, and to imply or directly state they are inferior because of it. You and I disagree on this simply because racism is racism period. It's a good example of what I see as part of the problem where people think it is excusable for certain groups to have racist feelings. As far as being an elitists, I'm really not sure I understand what you are saying in this instance.
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Politically_Incorrect12
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Post by Politically_Incorrect12 on Jul 15, 2015 18:39:40 GMT -5
I can't talk as a black person, but as a woman I can say if a male co-worker came up to me and grabbed my ass and asked me what I was doing after work tonight I would respond in a very negative way, because I've experienced male harassment in my career. And it wasn't that long ago that the male bosses thought they had carte blanche to fondle and even have sex with their female employees. So I would respond very forcefully, probably with a slap followed by a trip to HR, and my company would almost certainly fire him. But what if a woman fondled a male co-worker's ass and asked him what he was doing after work? How would the man feel? Would he be as outraged as the woman was? Or would he be more likely to laugh it off? Is it wrong that the woman is more highly offended than the man? Should the woman say to herself "well, this is just one man who is being a jerk, but I need to remember that most men aren't like this anymore, and I need to just laugh and let this go?" I don't think men and women would look at this situation the same way. Right or wrong, we all carry around baggage from our cultural history, and not so long ago, women were property of their fathers, husbands or brothers, relegated to domestic work or low wage jobs. Yes society has changed, but we haven't completely changed, and no one has forgotten what it used to be like. People look at it differently because we are conditioned to look at it differently. It doesn't make either one right, but it is a problem.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 15, 2015 19:45:32 GMT -5
i disagree. i think it is entirely excusable if the target of the racism is a racist. i think it is utterly inexcusable to say that "white people" are inferior for reasons of racism. i don't think it is inexcusable to call out racists and elitists for racism, and to imply or directly state they are inferior because of it. You and I disagree on this simply because racism is racism period. i never said it wasn't racism. in fact, i described it that way...so, yeah. it's racism.It's a good example of what I see as part of the problem where people think it is excusable for certain groups to have racist feelings. As far as being an elitists, I'm really not sure I understand what you are saying in this instance. i think that people that do unjust things don't earn just outcomes. that is what i think. everything i have just said boils down to that. if an immoral bastard gets treated badly by another immoral bastard, they deserve one another. edit:i am not calling that ideal, i am not calling it just, i am not calling it "not racism", i am calling it what it is: excusable, understandable, and reality. oh, and elitism is the idea that you deserve your privileges, and that others have to earn them to be worthy. it is a lot like racism in that way.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Jul 16, 2015 8:42:06 GMT -5
People look at it differently because we are conditioned to look at it differently. It doesn't make either one right, but it is a problem.
Yes it is that's the problem. If I am sexually harassed or I sexually harass a male co-worker the response should be exactly the same. Report it to HR and follow procedure.
Instead my reaction is going to be colored by my underlying cultural biases involving women. His wiill be influenced by cultural biases involving men.
It's not enough to just say "It's now illegal to sexually harass co-workers. Yay we won so what are you bitching about?" If that was all that it took then as I said the reponse to sexual harassment for both genders should be exactly the same and both cases treated equally by others.
The same thing applies to racism. Just b/c we don't have colored fountains and a black president doesn't mean it's over and everyone should quit their bitching. There is a much more insidious side to racism that still exists. And it's a lot harder to combat since it is something most of us don't even realize we're doing.
NIH couldn't figure out why female and minority PIs were getting less funding approval and amounts than white males. They removed the names and started using a code system. Suddenly approvals and the amounts leveled out.
I am assuming that hte majority of people reviewing grants would swear on a Bible that they were being impartial and not biased against gender/race but it was still happening.
Till that kind of stuff stopds we are not really "equal". To be honest I don't know if it will ever change completing since humans are hardwired to make snap decisons/judgements.
In the grand scope of history gender and race equality are a blip on the screen. We still have a LONG ways to go as far as everyone being "equal". I think it's going to take several more generation before we finally hit that point.
And until then we should keep discussing it. Telling people to quit your bitching segregation is over, you aren't getting your ass grabbed, you can get married now is a slap in the face and allows the unconcious cultural biases we hold to continue to florish and be shared with the next generation.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jul 18, 2015 8:01:32 GMT -5
MTV on Wednesday evening is running a documentary on race issues, titled "White People". The producer said it was hard to get whites to talk about race because they felt the issue did not concern them. It will follow white Americans where they are forced to confront racial identity issues, due to school, neighborhoods, etc.
I do not know if this will be any different than a "Sixty Minutes" exorcise, but plan to watch it.
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Jul 20, 2015 15:21:24 GMT -5
I assume you feel the same way about waving, raising, and displaying the Confederate flag? After all, the last person involved with that died a hundred years ago too.
Yes, the sources of all evil are colored pieces of cloth..... Keep defending the irresponsible behavior of others and we'll always have problems. People decide their course of behavior. People like the one who shot a kid (both black by the way) while riding a scooter in Chicago last weekend aren't influences by flags....There are no justifications for acts like these. Acts like these are the mainly the result of failed parenting within a failed system that rewards substandard behavior and encourages underachievement.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 20, 2015 18:01:12 GMT -5
Amen
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frankq
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Post by frankq on Jul 20, 2015 18:33:50 GMT -5
how? by engaging in an open dialog about them?
yeah, that made a lot of folks uncomfortable.
By demonstrating his own bias with his comments, often wrong after the facts came in, about these high profile cases. By using these cases to drive his own personal agendas and ideas of right and wrong. By being a poor representative of his people which includes white Americans as well as black Americans.
As far as your stand that the subway stabbing last week was just a robbery, think again. The man was stabbed over 40 times. OVER 40 times. That my friend is indicative of a crime of passion. The robbery was a plus.
And I'm still waiting for the Justice Department to investigate the so called "Mansion Murders" as a hate crime. Those white people were tortured for 18 hours (counting pizza breaks) and brutally killed by a black man. I'm still waiting for our President to mosey down the road and eulogize these people. Not hearing much about that anymore........
sure, racism is two way. so is sexism. but you have to be completely ignoring the history of these things to miss the POWER RELATIONS part of it. when racism happens in our society, throughout it's short and colorful history, it happened in a way which elevated whites at the expense of blacks.
Let's see...there was plenty of racism at the turn of the last century....People hated blacks, Orientals, Irish, Italian, you name it. Many of those white people were worked to death in factories, mines and on railroads. Many whites died in coal mines in the South due to terrible conditions. They were trapped in company towns, gave their wages away in company stores, and were shot and beaten to death by company thugs and Pinkertons when they fought to improve their lives, often with the government turning a blind eye. I don't see where whites were elevated during those times.
Stop giving people stuff and start making them accountable and a lot of this stuff ends. Stop making everything a race issue, and race will be less of an issue. Keep allowing a few to fan the flames, oftentimes created by a media their own bias, and we will continue to have problems.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jul 20, 2015 18:38:45 GMT -5
There is a really excellent (and eye-opening) book out there on this whole topic - for anyone who's interested. It's called Whistling Vivaldi by Claude Steele.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 21, 2015 12:55:19 GMT -5
This was a robbery. A horrible, brutal robbery, where the murderer picked the victims because they were rich. If he had broken into a poor white person's house just to torture the victims, that would look more like a hate crime.
Multiple stab wounds can also indicate someone high on drugs, especially meth. Makes them paranoid and crazy. I think we should rely on the local police to determine if this was a hate crime, not just guess what we think it should be called, from a distance, and without any evidence to back up our guesses. Hate crimes bring extra time, so I'm certain if the DA thought they could get more jail time by hanging 'hate crime' on the charges, they would.
But isn't this what you're doing, insisting two cases the police did not label hate crimes must be hate crimes because white people got killed by blacks?
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