People who commit suicide

[debthaven]

I know that some of you have had close people commit suicide and I am truly sorry if this thread causes you any pain. Please feel free to contribute or ignore it, whatever feels less worse.

DH and I met nearly 30 years ago at our first job. At the time both of us were married to other people. Both of our spouses left us. He decided to cheer me up and it worked. 

Our former boss was a friend to both of us for all that time, but she was closer to DH. DH asked her to be his "best man" at our wedding 10 years ago. 

She killed herself 2 months ago, after several attempts. We only found out about the attempts once she was in a psychiatric hospital. DH called her but she didn't want to talk. Even though we were not in very frequent contact at that point, both of us, but especially DH, are having trouble getting past it.  

She had retired and moved to the country (which we think was at least part of the problem). She was NOT meant to live FT in the country, she was a "city girl" at heart. DH and I both think that having to move to the country did her in (and after her Paris memorial, so do all of her friends). 

Her Paris memorial was this week, we went to that. Her country memorial is in two weeks, we are going to that too. I probably would have chosen to go to one or the other rather than both but DH felt strongly about going to both. 

I am not even sure what I'm asking here. 

ETA: I am also extremely haunted by the fact that I went to a really popular expo here one day, and thought I saw her. I called out to her, I waved at her, but the woman was wearing headphones (audio guide) and I did not actually touch her, or stand in front of her and block her view. I figured I'd catch up with her later, but couldn't find her (I looked). I planned to call her, but never did. That was the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacre here (as I found out after I left the expo). (Maybe) running into her that day seemed minor after that, at the time, so I never called her.

[Jaguar]

((( BIG HUGS )))

[TheOtherMe]

I am so sorry.  I have never lost anybody to suicide.

All I can say is hugs to you and your DH. 

[Sam_2.0]

I am so sorry for your loss, debt

I've been in that place before. Its hell. I dont blame anyone that follows through with it. The suffering is beyond imaginable. Its completely against human nature of self-preservation. To be so far down that path that you are beyond your most basic instincts is horrifying.

[debthaven]

Theo, I am 55 and DH is 59, and this was the first time for us. 

[Opti]

Debt,

It might not have been her at the Expo, but you should have listened to your gut and called her. Maybe it would have changed things for her. Yes, when you have to do things you don't want to do and live alone, you can easily be at risk for suicide. The more connections on has, the less likely they are to be sick and I think the less likely they are to commit suicide out of despair versus wanting to do so to save face or not want to do the slow dying thing.

You will never know exactly why. You can guess. But since I'm in tired tuned in with the universe stream of conscious mode, I'm giving it to you straight. You could have made a difference.

I am glad you are going to both her Paris memorial and her country one. This way you honor her and help grieve with people who also suffered the same loss. A few years ago, I was attending funerals, wakes and memorials for various friends through church and/or their loved ones. There was one man who was so popular and loved he had more than two memorial services. I only went to two of them because I could. I know my friend remembers and I also learned a great deal about her father (and later her daughter) by showing up. (They weren't suicides, but hopefully what I experienced will help.)

Sorry for your and DH's loss. I believe she is now at peace in spirit.

(I might edit to make this nicer once I have some sleep in me and enough hydration.)

OPtimist

[debthaven]

Sam, her son came to the Paris memorial which was mainly women: her friends, colleagues, book club, etc. He spoke for a long time about how he knows how much she loved him, and his kids, and her DH, but at that point, it no longer had anything to do with them. 

He spoke about how in her two (serious) previous attempts, she had left notes. He told us, I told her PLEASE do not try again, but if you do, our relationship has never been about bullshit and platitudes, so don't leave a note. She tried again, third time she was successful, and she respected his wishes. She did not leave a note. 

It totally blew me away. 

[Opti]

FWIW, I don't know of anyone I lost due to suicide, but my sister's FIL did attempt it. He wasn't successful, and I am pretty sure to this day I understand why he made the attempt, and why did it better than my sib. Probably because I almost pulled the trigger myself, with a kitchen knife in my first marriage.

[debthaven]

Opt, she did not live alone, she had a husband, a son and 3 grandkids, and a ton of friends much closer than DH and I, and very few people saw it coming. We certainly did not. 

But yes, in retrospect, how I wish I had torn the audio guide off her head and blocked her view!!! I will go to my grave with the guilt of wondering whether it was her and cursing myself for worrying about not seeing the friend I was at the expo with and moving onto the next room.

Her best friend (who hosted the Paris memorial) told me she was not in Paris that day, but I'm not sure she is correct.I told her the story. 

ETA: DH had a "heads up" because this person was an avid traveller, and she was due to visit a mutual friend (also a former employee) in Australia, but she cancelled her trip because she was hospitalized. The Australian friend called DH and told him. That's when DH called her and she (basically and kindly and laughingly) blew DH off. 

[TheOtherMe]

Jun 12, 2015 19:48:10 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Theo, I am 55 and DH is 59, and this was the first time for us. 

I'm older than you.  And I'm wrong.  I lost a former beau to suicide in about my late 20's.  We broke up when he got in to drugs in the late 60's.  I couldn't deal with the change in him and broke up with him.  A couple of years later, he attempted suicide.  He made many attempts and finally succeeded.  I was no longer in touch with him.  

I have wanted to commit suicide, but never made any attempts.  I understood the kind of pain he had been in for all those years.  He had come so close so many times.

[Opti]

Jun 12, 2015 19:51:50 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Sam, her son came to the Paris memorial which was mainly women: her friends, colleagues, book club, etc. He spoke for a long time about how he knows how much she loved him, and his kids, and her DH, but at that point, it no longer had anything to do with them. 

He spoke about how in her two (serious) previous attempts, she had left notes. He told us, I told her PLEASE do not try again, but if you do, our relationship has never been about bullshit and platitudes, so don't leave a note. She tried again, third time she was successful, and she respected his wishes. She did not leave a note. 

It totally blew me away. 

Yikes. She was saying something is real bad and I don't know how to fix it. Hopefully the son really thought she was kidding instead of realizing most women don't succeed on the first attempt and really want to live but don't know how to go on.

Very few people realize reaching out is asking for a way to live for someone so depressed they see no way forward but death.

[Deleted]

I am sorry for the loss of your friend.

It is a shame that even in-patient treatment could not get her stabilized enough to see a path to recovery. 

[Deleted]

I read one time that British law does not recognize suicide as a cause of death. On the death certificate it will say the person died while not in their right mind. I don't know if it is true or not but I like that. It's still sad but it lets me think of the act of suicide as something separate from the person.

[saveinla]

My son's close friend jumped in front of a train this January - he was 19. This is a guy who was an A student, doing very well in high school, but he went off to college and something happened. He dropped off after one semester, came home and kept on talking about dying. It's one of my worst nightmares.

[Opti]

Jun 12, 2015 19:53:50 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Opt, she did not live alone, she had a husband, a son and 3 grandkids, and a ton of friends much closer than DH and I, and very few people saw it coming. We certainly did not. 

But yes, in retrospect, how I wish I had torn the audio guide off her head!!!

Her best friend told me she was not in Paris that day, but I'm not sure she is correct. 

Living alone make it worse. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Expectations and other baggage can literally kill when you live with someone. When its really bad, it often ends up being suicide or murder. I know I was going to choose the former even though I almost drew a map with pointy red arrows for XH on how to help me have a life.

I'm 55 and still alive. I'm glad its over twenty years ago and I can finally write about it without remembering the scene for me in vivid detail. Not everyone sees it coming, but it retrospect you might find some signs. Perhaps in the city it was easier to escape family and hang with friends. Without that outlet?

Just conjecturing. I might be considerably off the mark.

[debthaven]

Opti, her son absolutely knew she was not kidding. This woman had friends all over the world, literally. She was a powerhouse, physically and emotionally. 

Your take is different from mine. Ultimately, it's that person's decision. Her son and her DH had clearly done everything in their power to prevent it, they failed. He also talked about how they knew they would eventually fail, because you can't stop somebody who is hell-bent on killing themself from doing it. They had already hospitalized her (once or twice, not clear). 

[debthaven]

Later, that's not true about the Brits not declaring suicide (at least not these days.) My British friend's goddaughter committed suicide and the parents actually went to court to force the court to declare it an accidental death but they were unsuccessful. 

This woman was not British. 

[debthaven]

Saveinla, that is EVERY parent's worst nightmare. This hurts so badly but she was in her mid-70s. A young person opting for that solution is just horrific. 

Here there is a saying, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I too struggle with it sometimes but I try to keep that in mind. 

[Opti]

Jun 12, 2015 20:03:40 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Opti, her son absolutely knew she was not kidding. This woman had friends all over the world, literally. She was a powerhouse, physically and emotionally. 

Your take is different from mine. Ultimately, it's that person's decision. Her son and her DH had clearly done everything in their power to prevent it, they failed. He also talked about how they knew they would eventually fail, because you can't stop somebody who is hell-bent on killing themself from doing it. They had already hospitalized her (once or twice, not clear). 

I hope you did not misunderstand me. All I wrote and meant is you could have might have made a diiference if you had called then when you & the universe thought about it multiple times. Yes it is ultimately her decision. You can't stop someone from killing themselves, working crap jobs, staying with an abusive husband, making shitloads of money and having a great personal life. But we all influence each other was my point.

I am coming from the point of view from someone who has lived something somewhat similar to your person only different. I was hospitalized multiple times. By my husband. I told him the first time if he didn't get me out, I would divorce him. It took me over three years to pull that off, but I did it. He "tried" to save me too. I bet several staff, visitors, and patients did too.

I was able to live because the universe answered my prayer and sent some to save me about 20 years ago.

[Tennesseer]

Debthaven, many years ago, and on Thanksgiving Day, my aunt committed suicide with her young family and husband at home.

There were some unhealthy dynamics going on in their home as my uncle was being treated for bi-polar disease and their middle child had undiagnosed bi-polar disease too.

Several weeks before she committed suicide, my aunt told my dad she was going to kill herself.  My dad told her to stop talking nonsense.  All the family focus was on my uncle, my dad's only sibling.

My dad was devastated when his SIL committed suicide.  He blamed himself for her death.  Too much focus on his brother and not watching out for his brother''s family.  

Yet today, my uncle's adult children say my dad saved their family after their mother's death.  And they always made it a point to remind him of that fact.  My dad got more involved in taking care of their needs including counseling for the children among other things.

If you feel you are somehow responsible for your friend's death, forgive yourself.  Those so determined to kill themselves will find a way regardless of how their friends and family try to stop them.  Bad things happen in this world and they are not always preventable.

Be kind to yourself. You could not have foreseen this and her death rests on her shoulders and no one elses.

[debthaven]

There were people much closer than us who lived in the same village in the country. Her best friend has a house there. She told a couple of them, "I have nothing to live for anymore". They all rallied. It did not make a bit of difference. 

So despite my guilt, I believe that even ripping off that audiophone, if it was indeed her, wouldn't have made a difference. 

Opt, I understand you perfectly well. So now please stop beating this dead horse into the ground. 

[debthaven]

Thank you Tenn

I just wish I could turn back the clock and call her that night or the next day, and say, so were you at the Niki de St Phalle expo today / yesterday?!

Ultimately, I know it wouldn't have changed anything. We learned at the memorial how hell-bent she was on doing it, and I know she would have done it despite that call. But I wish I could have talked to her one last time. 

[debthaven]

She was saying something is real bad and I don't know how to fix it.

That's an extremely puerile argument, IMO. Yes, many attempted suicides are just that. But, most further attempts are not. She researched all the meds she was offered and declined all of them, and explained why. She missed the first two times, and then took a few months off. She did her homework, got her son and DH to finally let down their guard, and then she succeeded on her third attempt.

I'm not going to go into the gory details of how she finally succeeded, but given what she ultimately did, she couldn't have missed. Suffice it to say that she combined at least 3 methods. She wasn't crying out for help, she was trying to kill herself. So frankly I am finding your continued posts both hurtful and offensive. 

I feel plenty of guilt at not ripping off the audiophone but at the same time, given what she did, I know it would not have changed a thing. 

I don't know the stats for successful suicides but I do know there are generally several failed attempts first, even if I don't remember the stats.

[Tennesseer]

Jun 12, 2015 20:24:47 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Thank you Tenn

I just wish I could turn back the clock and call her that night or the next day, and say, so were you at the Niki de St Phalle expo today / yesterday?!

Ultimately, I know it wouldn't have changed anything. We learned at the memorial how hell-bent she was on doing it, and I know she would have done it despite that call. But I wish I could have talked to her one last time. 

You can still talk to her. And you will hear her voice. Tell her what you are feeling and how you wish she was still with you all. Talk to her often until you and she are good.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2015 20:05:35 GMT -5 debthaven said:

Later, that's not true about the Brits not declaring suicide

That's too bad. I still like to think of it as dying while not in their right mind.

[Sam_2.0]

Its so hard to explain to those that have never tried, or at least had those thoughts. To be so tormented that you truly believe your family and loved ones would be better off without you. Its not selfish. Its the ultimate act of selflessness. At least from that point of view. To save those around you from being hurt by you. To love them so much that you want to spare them any more hurt. It doesnt make sense to most, but I get it. Ive been there. I am so scared I will be again. But i am thankful for the great help I've found in dealing with those feelings. And knoing my kids are so little and they need me does help. If they were grown? Well, I cant say I wont ever try again. I cant explain, but its part of me. Every time I drive...and thing of crossing over the median or driving off the cliff. And yes, I do have help with dealing with these feelings in a positive way i know self-destruction isnt the answer.

[Sam_2.0]

Sorry that was so rambling. Sheesh.

[debthaven]

Sam I get it too.   Sorry to tell you this but it won't get easier when the kids are bigger. You have little kids so you think there is a miraculous age (either 18 or 21) when they won't need you anymore. 

But it doesn't work that way. Thank Gd.

[taz157]

I'm sorry debt.   And also to those that have lost loved ones to suicide.  

I have been fortunate in where I've had no family or friends do it.  I can only imagine the pain you are going through.

Sam - I love to read your posts (along with many others on here).  I just wish you live closer so we could meet IRL and would love to see how our DDs interact as they are so close in age. 

[Knee Deep in Water Chloe]

I am one who has never had suicidal ideation at all. I don't understand those who do. I also don't believe that if someone is absolutely set on it that he/she can be stopped. 


I I have had one student who hung himself while in prison, one student in the building I was teaching whom I didn't know hang himself, one girl who had just moved away from the school I just started working in hang herself and her sister went to school with my children, and more than I can count have ideation or make threats. DH has had one student kill himself by shooting himself with a shotgun in the mouth while in front of his girlfriend. It's very difficult to deal with especially when the parents don't want to take it seriously. Yes, some teenagers are "faking" the threats, but it's not something one wants to be wrong about. 

ETA: There was also a teacher in another building in my former district. It was after I moved away, and I didn't know he'd been struggling with depression so it was a surprise when he took his own life. It was either in the midst of or just before the union went on strike; he was a union leader. I'm not correlating anything to unions per se, just that the dire situation may have added to his depression. 

It's hard being human.