weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 12, 2015 21:32:39 GMT -5
She was saying something is real bad and I don't know how to fix it.That's an extremely puerile argument, IMO. Yes, many attempted suicides are just that. But, most further attempts are not. She researched all the meds she was offered and declined all of them, and explained why. She missed the first two times, and then took a few months off. She did her homework, got her son and DH to finally let down their guard, and then she succeeded on her third attempt. I'm not going to go into the gory details of how she finally succeeded, but given what she ultimately did, she couldn't have missed. Suffice it to say that she combined at least 3 methods. She wasn't crying out for help, she was trying to kill herself. So frankly I am finding your continued posts both hurtful and offensive. I feel plenty of guilt at not ripping off the audiophone but at the same time, given what she did, I know it would not have changed a thing. I don't know the stats for successful suicides but I do know there are generally several failed attempts first, even if I don't remember the stats. It sounds like she had plenty of friends, family and support. You ripping the headphones off wouldn't have made a lick of difference. Grieve in whatever way is appropriate for you, but try to let the guilt go. It wouldn't have mattered, as she was absolutely determined to end it.
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 12, 2015 21:40:22 GMT -5
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 12, 2015 21:43:06 GMT -5
Welts, thank you. Intellectually, I know this. But emotionally, it's still a struggle.
And the thought that I saw her at the expo and didn't speak to her really haunts me. (No I'm not 100% sure it was her, but I'm 90% sure.)
But I also know that if it was her, and I had spoken to her, over time, it wouldn't have changed anything. Ultimately, she wanted out.
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Sam_2.0
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Post by Sam_2.0 on Jun 12, 2015 22:00:55 GMT -5
Welts, thank you. Intellectually, I know this. But emotionally, it's still a struggle. And the thought that I saw her at the expo and didn't speak to her really haunts me. (No I'm not 100% sure it was her, but I'm 90% sure.) But I also know that if it was her, and I had spoken to her, over time, it wouldn't have changed anything. Ultimately, she wanted out. Please know she did what she felt was right to make her heart at peace. If it was selfish, then so be it. Many things we do in this life are. I hope her family and friends find peace and acceptance, knowing this was her choice and that she can finally be free from the demons that tormented her. ♡ theres no good solution. I am truly sorry for your pain.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Jun 13, 2015 8:55:10 GMT -5
debt- sorry to hear about your friend. I've known two people that committed suicide.
Don't be hard on yourself about not reaching out. You couldn't have known, and in both cases of the suicide I saw there were plenty of people around and not a single person suspected.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 13, 2015 9:22:44 GMT -5
I'm so glad to read you've thought this through and realize there really wasn't anything you could have done, debthaven. Please, do your best not to focus on the "shoulda-woulda-couldas." We don't have the power to see into the future, just as we don't have the power to see into another person's thoughts and feelings. We're pretty helpless in that regard. Our family has lost one to suicide and almost lost another. The latter has managed to pull herself through and has had a good life. It's difficult to think about how desperate someone must have been to take such an action; however, if you think about it that way it helps a little to understand, I think, why they do. For someone about whom I truly care, I want them to be happy and to have a good, productive life. If they simply can't bring themselves to go on, a part of me finds it must be happy they finally succeeded in stopping the devastating pain. I can't imagine having to live with that kind of horror. At least, your friend is finally at peace. Perhaps, that's not such a bad thing. Hugs to you and your DH. I'm so very sorry for your loss and my sincere condolences to other friends, and her family.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 13, 2015 9:54:06 GMT -5
I'm sorry for your loss Debt.
I went through some survivor's guilt earlier this year when a well respected friend passed away. She was 52. She was the long-time editor and employee (close to 30 years) of our local newspaper. The corporate owner laid her off via phone call.
I found out about her employment status via a Christmas card exchange. I knew I should reach out to her but we were coordinating trips with MIL for Christmas and her birthday. Three weeks later her death was front page news in the same paper. No one stated that it was suicide but under the circumstances I wouldn't be surprised.
I was unable to attend the memorial as I had to be in AZ. To be honest I'm not sure attending the memorial would have made me feel better although I probably would have run into folks who felt the same way.
I'd say that the one lesson I've taken to heart is to reach out to people right away.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 13, 2015 10:02:04 GMT -5
Its so hard to explain to those that have never tried, or at least had those thoughts. To be so tormented that you truly believe your family and loved ones would be better off without you. Its not selfish. Its the ultimate act of selflessness. At least from that point of view. To save those around you from being hurt by you. To love them so much that you want to spare them any more hurt. It doesnt make sense to most, but I get it. Ive been there. I am so scared I will be again. But i am thankful for the great help I've found in dealing with those feelings. And knoing my kids are so little and they need me does help. If they were grown? Well, I cant say I wont ever try again. I cant explain, but its part of me. Every time I drive...and thing of crossing over the median or driving off the cliff. And yes, I do have help with dealing with these feelings in a positive way i know self-destruction isnt the answer. I've been there. I tried to commit suicide when I was 10. It didn't work and no one knew until years and years later. I felt there was no escape.
I'm glad it didn't work out as there was a lot to live FOR. I was too young to understand that "This too shall pass". It was a hell of a year.
I've since gone through depressive periods. But nothing as hopeless as that one year.
I also think that I honed some of my red-headed feisty-ness. I'm much more of fighter now than when I was a young, more helpless child.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Jun 13, 2015 10:06:45 GMT -5
My son's close friend jumped in front of a train this January - he was 19. This is a guy who was an A student, doing very well in high school, but he went off to college and something happened. He dropped off after one semester, came home and kept on talking about dying. It's one of my worst nightmares. My idol in High School committed suicide my junior year. I thought he was the perfect, well rounded person I aspired to be. An academic genius who also was very good at sports. Apparently he felt that he wasn't living up to his parents' expectations.
It was a real lesson to me that even supposedly "perfect" people have their demons.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 13, 2015 12:22:50 GMT -5
One of my favorite sayings is "perfection is the greatest enemy to the common good". It has taken me a long time to realize that this is not just applicable to the big picture. On an individual level, so many humans search for this elusive goal and some get lost on the way. I think that is were some of the inexplicable (for the outside world) suicides originate. I really don't know how to support the survivors of these losses. All I have to offer is "it reaaly not your fault" and a big hug. And that is what I offer to all of you who have had to deal with this, be it as a survivor of your own demons or as one who was left behind when a battle was lost
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jun 13, 2015 12:31:08 GMT -5
I know that some of you have had close people commit suicide and I am truly sorry if this thread causes you any pain. Please feel free to contribute or ignore it, whatever feels less worse. DH and I met nearly 30 years ago at our first job. At the time both of us were married to other people. Both of our spouses left us. He decided to cheer me up and it worked. Our former boss was a friend to both of us for all that time, but she was closer to DH. DH asked her to be his "best man" at our wedding 10 years ago. She killed herself 2 months ago, after several attempts. We only found out about the attempts once she was in a psychiatric hospital. DH called her but she didn't want to talk. Even though we were not in very frequent contact at that point, both of us, but especially DH, are having trouble getting past it. She had retired and moved to the country (which we think was at least part of the problem). She was NOT meant to live FT in the country, she was a "city girl" at heart. DH and I both think that having to move to the country did her in (and after her Paris memorial, so do all of her friends). Her Paris memorial was this week, we went to that. Her country memorial is in two weeks, we are going to that too. I probably would have chosen to go to one or the other rather than both but DH felt strongly about going to both. I am not even sure what I'm asking here. ETA: I am also extremely haunted by the fact that I went to a really popular expo here one day, and thought I saw her. I called out to her, I waved at her, but the woman was wearing headphones (audio guide) and I did not actually touch her, or stand in front of her and block her view. I figured I'd catch up with her later, but couldn't find her (I looked). I planned to call her, but never did. That was the day of the Charlie Hebdo massacre here (as I found out after I left the expo). (Maybe) running into her that day seemed minor after that, at the time, so I never called her. That's terrible, I am so sorry. Even though it is normal, you cannot blame yourself. She had problems you did not cause and could not cure. Speaking to her that day would not have made a difference. Keeping in touch with her would not have made a difference. She would still have done what she did.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 13, 2015 14:01:37 GMT -5
I am one who has never had suicidal ideation at all. I don't understand those who do.
I was of this mindset, until I had my first hip excision. The amount of pain I was going through was more than I could bear at the time and during this, I had an epiphany. If my physical pain could drive me to these thoughts, even though I knew that ultimately the pain would subside, what must it be like for those whose pain (both physical and mental) could not be controlled and that they had to live like this their entire life? In all of my 53 years, I have never EVER felt anything like that.
It was a huge, eye opening experience for me.
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honeysalt
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Post by honeysalt on Jun 13, 2015 15:40:22 GMT -5
Yes, my bio dad and one of my childhood friends committed suicide. It stinks. There isn't really any way for survivors to resolve it, at least not that I have found. We are left with a lot of pain and unanswered questions.
I am glad that you have found the answer to one of your questions. You certainly didn't have any bearing on the outcome. One talk with a former co-worker wasn't suddenly going to turn this around for her, particularly when she had so many interventions from people who were professionally trained and had a closer relationship.
The one thing that gives me a little peace is that when someone is in incurable chronic physical pain, people often say that it is a blessing or a relief or they were ready to go. I tell myself the same thing about the people who committed suicide, substituting emotional for physical pain. It probably isn't accurate, but it helps me feel better.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Jun 13, 2015 15:52:43 GMT -5
There's no absolute way you or anyone else for that matter, can know what another is thinking or what is in their hearts & souls.
I've had depression twice where I thought of suicide, fortunately for me I have really good friends and an absolute ton of medical experts at my beck and call.
I also have a massive spiritual drive, that pretty wells kicks me in the ass, when I get down. ((BIG HUGS))
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toomuchreality
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Post by toomuchreality on Jun 14, 2015 0:14:38 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 14, 2015 0:47:44 GMT -5
Opt, she did not live alone, she had a husband, a son and 3 grandkids, and a ton of friends much closer than DH and I, and very few people saw it coming. We certainly did not. But yes, in retrospect, how I wish I had torn the audio guide off her head and blocked her view!!! I will go to my grave with the guilt of wondering whether it was her and cursing myself for worrying about not seeing the friend I was at the expo with and moving onto the next room.
Her best friend (who hosted the Paris memorial) told me she was not in Paris that day, but I'm not sure she is correct.I told her the story. ETA: DH had a "heads up" because this person was an avid traveller, and she was due to visit a mutual friend (also a former employee) in Australia, but she cancelled her trip because she was hospitalized. The Australian friend called DH and told him. That's when DH called her and she (basically and kindly and laughingly) blew DH off. Have that conversation with her now. Imagine you're back at that Expo, and it is her. You "tear off the audio guide" and then what? -Bonjour! Bonjour! Kiss, kiss - How nice to see you here, ma cherie. Ca va? - Oui, oui, everything's great. (Remember, you still don't know what she's going to do) You make small talk, agree to meet for a café au lait in the future, and that's that.
It changes absolutely nothing. You can't beat yourself up about it. You can curse yourself all you want, but the end result would have been exactly the same. Cut yourself some slack. There was nothing you could have done.
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 14, 2015 5:52:23 GMT -5
Weltz, I agree with you.
Thank you everybody for making me feel better about this.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 14, 2015 13:20:43 GMT -5
Sometimes you have ZERO warning either. I know a woman that actually made plans for thanksgiving with her family, who was bringing what, and also talked to her granddaughter about attending her ballet recital that was right before Then when her husband went to play golf went into the garage and turned the car on. The devastation of her family was unreal. She had zero reason. She was healthy, no financial issues, good marriage to a nice guy, no reason anyone could think of but she did it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 15, 2015 7:50:12 GMT -5
I went to church with a beautiful woman, very tall, with a swan like neck, always wearing beautiful hats - she killed herself. She had a couple middle school aged kids a successful husband, a big McMansion. I couldn't understand it - even though I didn't know her well, I often saw her at different places, and she was always cool, serene, tastefully dressed, very elegant. I wasn't close enough to the situation to know why she did it, although I heard drugs were involved, but she left a note, so it couldn't have been accidental.
You can't know what people are thinking, or going through. People put on a façade for the outside world while on the inside, their life may be unending misery.
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