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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 17:42:31 GMT -5
He blacked out and a woman performed oral sex on him. Later he was accused of rape and being drunk was no excuse. According to the "victim" she did something wrong Not sure how to link since it is part of a blog, so here is the article from Reason.com
Amherst College expelled a male student who was accused of sexually assaulting a female student while he was blacked out. Again, while he was blacked out. The woman he allegedly assaulted was fully lucid.
How did that happen? It didn’t. The evidence overwhelmingly suggests that the male student did nothing wrong. If anyone committed sexual assault during their encounter, it was in fact the female student.
The male student, “John Doe,” is suing Amherst. KC Johnson parsed his lawsuit here. Agreeing with Johnson’s analysis, The Washington Examiner’s Ashe Schow wrote:
This is one of the few cases where we have an actually good idea of what happened the night in question. Doe accompanied the accuser (who was Doe's girlfriend's roommate) to her dorm room. The accuser performed oral sex on a blacked out Doe (Johnson notes that even the Amherst hearing found Doe's account of being blacked out "credible"). Doe leaves. The accuser then texted two people: First, a male student she had a crush on — whom she invited over after a heavily flirtatious exchange earlier in the evening. Then, a female friend.
The accuser said during her hearing that she only texted one friend to help her handle the assault as she felt "very alone and confused." But her texts with her female friend give no indication of an assault. Rather, the accuser texted her friend "Ohmygod I jus did something so fuckig stupid" [sic throughout]. She then proceeded to fret that she had done something wrong and her roommate would never talk to her again, because "it's pretty obvi I wasn't an innocent bystander."
She also complained that the other man, who had come over after the alleged assault, had taken until 5 in the morning to finally have sex with her.
The accuser found herself friendless after the encounter, when her roommate discovered what she had done.
Between the encounter with Doe and the accusation — nearly two years later — the accuser developed new friends. And as it happens, these new friends were all "victims' advocates."
After making those new friends, long after the incident, she accused John Doe of assaulting her. The adjudication process, as described by Johnson, was a Kafkaesque farce:
Despite an accuser who offered borderline non-coherent responses that subtly expanded on her initial story, the panel ultimately accepted her credibility. It ruled that while Doe likely was “blacked out” during the oral sex, “eing intoxicated or impaired by drugs or alcohol is never an excuse.” Since AS [the female] said she withdrew consent at some point during the sexual act, and since Doe couldn’t challenge that recollection, the panel was at least 50.01 percent inclined to believe the accuser’s tale.
Keep in mind what happened here. John Doe was with his girlfriend’s roommate when he blacked out. She then performed oral sex on him. She immediately regretted it—not because Doe had done anything wrong, but because she had done something wrong. Yet he was expelled.
This outcome was obviously a gross miscarriage of justice. I think even the most staunchly pro-victim anti-rape activists would admit that (maybe). But it strikes me that this is exactly the kind of confounding verdict that a college is likely to reach when forced to adhere to the favored policies of the anti-rape activists: affirmative consent and preponderance of the evidence standards. When university administrators poorly trained in legal procedures are asked to determine whether it is more likely than not an accused student had obtained ongoing, enthusiastic, affirmative consent during a sexual encounter, they will invariably convict the innocent.
In a twisted sense, administrators were correct to find John Doe guilty. He was accused of sexual assault, and he couldn't prove the encounter was consensual. Imagine if he had accused her of sexual assault as well—the panel might very well have concluded that they raped each other.
We should expect to see more of this insanity, not less, when the federal government obligates college administrators to insert themselves in students’ sex lives.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 11, 2015 19:32:38 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure the story out. Is it just me or does it make zero sense?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:40:37 GMT -5
I'm still trying to figure the story out. Is it just me or does it make zero sense? Keep in mind what happened here. John Doe was with his girlfriend’s roommate when he blacked out. She then performed oral sex on him. She immediately regretted it—not because Doe had done anything wrong, but because she had done something wrong. Yet he was expelled.
Between the encounter with Doe and the accusation — nearly two years later — the accuser developed new friends. And as it happens, these new friends were all "victims' advocates."
After making those new friends, long after the incident, she accused John Doe of assaulting her
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:44:39 GMT -5
the panel ... ruled that while Doe likely was “blacked out” during the oral sex, “being intoxicated or impaired by drugs or alcohol is never an excuse.”
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:50:35 GMT -5
If the facts are as written, I don't see how the finding could be that he was at fault.
What is the web address of the site? Did they post a transcript of the investigation or trial/tribunal proceedings?
Quite often when someone says or posts things like this, that just make no sense, it is because what they are writing is not accurate.
Just like people screaming about CPS taking their kids away 'for no reason' or the court restricting them from seeing their kids 'for no reason' -- well that is just a lie; there are excessive protections for parents that repeatedly give drug addict incompetent parents chance after chance; so it is never 'for no reason'.
Generally I'm going to believe the court made a decent judgment based on the facts. So here I think I'll believe Amherst made a decent decision until we see some actual facts outlining the whole account.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 11, 2015 19:52:30 GMT -5
Just how does "Doe" leave if he's (allegedly) blacked-out?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 19:59:31 GMT -5
Just how does "Doe" leave if he's (allegedly) blacked-out? . blacked-out doesn't mean dead. I assume he regained consciousness at some point in time and just left like anyone else would. It was from reason.com/blog
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Jun 11, 2015 20:04:50 GMT -5
So she sexually assaults her rommates boyfriend while he is blacked out, regrets it and he gets kicked out of college... Ummmm So now girls can do whatever they want without repercussions?
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jun 11, 2015 20:06:09 GMT -5
Why would she wait 2 yrs after the fact? It seems to me that the lady in question was holding some kind of grudge now that "Doe" had moved on with his life and had a new circle of friends. Jealousy? Revenge?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 20:19:29 GMT -5
So she sexually assaults her rommates boyfriend while he is blacked out, regrets it and he gets kicked out of college... Ummmm So now girls can do whatever they want without repercussions? "now"? What do you mean "now"? You say that like it's a new concept. Girls have been getting away with pulling the "victim" card when they aren't actually one for decades. "Regretting sex after willingly having it with someone, isn't the same as being raped" has been an argument I have made quite often over the years on discussion boards.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 11, 2015 20:23:30 GMT -5
Keep in mind you are only being informed of what the expelled student alleges happened and what he wants you to know. When Ahmerst College replies to the student's allegations, then we can decide whethervthe student was treated fairly or not.
I will wait for the court case.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 11, 2015 21:28:06 GMT -5
How do you get someone passed out to even respond to anything, let alone oral sex? How could "it" even get hard?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 21:46:23 GMT -5
How do you get someone passed out to even respond to anything, let alone oral sex? How could "it" even get hard? "it" has a mind of "it's" own. While "whiskey willie" (non-functional "willie" due to alcohol overindulgence) can be an issue for every man, the amount of alcohol it takes to make "it" unresponsive varies from man to man, AND sometimes the "upper brain" gets drunk way before the "lower brain" does... especially blackout drunk. because blackout drunk is a memory issue, NOT a conscious or unconscious issue. So it's entirely conceivable that he could be blackout drunk and still have a fully functioning appendage.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 11, 2015 21:48:19 GMT -5
Well, I hope it was "good for him!"
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 11, 2015 21:51:52 GMT -5
Seriously, what would be the point of giving a bj to someone who isn't awake enough to enjoy it? There's got to be more to this story.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 22:24:16 GMT -5
Seriously, what would be the point of giving a bj to someone who isn't awake enough to enjoy it? There's got to be more to this story. I can think of a couple of reasons for someone to do that, off the top of my head... (none of which may apply in THIS specific case) In no particular order of likelihood: - Blackmail for later, against him
- Because she was pissed at his girlfriend/spouse/significant other
- To "prove" he's not gay, because that's the reason he gives for why he won't date her
- To get his semen so she can inseminate herself later (she might not stop at oral for that one though)
- Bragging rights ("I blew the hottest guy on campus!")
- Some women LIKE giving oral sex that much (or so I've heard).
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 11, 2015 22:31:26 GMT -5
Okay, folks. Let's be careful with this subject, please. No need to go into any sort of detail here. We're running very close to the edge of ToS. The thread will be locked and removed if we get any closer.
mmhmm, Administrator
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2015 22:41:06 GMT -5
I thought I was being careful. I'll bow to your greater knowledge of ProBoards sensibilities (or lack thereof).
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irishpad
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Post by irishpad on Jun 11, 2015 22:50:49 GMT -5
Just for clarification, it is helpful to know that "blackout" is not the same as "passed out"
A blackout while drinking involves the person going into a period where they have no short term memory. To the people they encounter, the person in the blackout may seem to be acting in a manner with normal awareness. E.g. - a person that goes into a blackout could suddenly "wake up" and be in a totally different part of the country and have no idea how they got there. People that experience blackouts might drive normally, even takena airline flight, but they would have not have any memory of it and likely will never regain that memory.
Passing out - too much drink to function in any manner, put to sleep physically and mentally by the drink.
The guy in this story says he was in a blackout. The young woman wouldn't have known by his behavior that he was in a blackout.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 11, 2015 23:02:54 GMT -5
Just for clarification, it is helpful to know that "blackout" is not the same as "passed out" A blackout while drinking involves the person going into a period where they have no short term memory. To the people they encounter, the person in the blackout may seem to be acting in a manner with normal awareness. E.g. - a person that goes into a blackout could suddenly "wake up" and be in a totally different part of the country and have no idea how they got there. People that experience blackouts might drive normally, even take a airline flight, but they would have not any memory of it and likely will never regain that memory. Passing out - too much drink to function in any manner, put to sleep physically and mentally by the drink. The guy in this story says he was in a blackout. The young woman wouldn't have known by his behavior that he was in a blackout. Blackout: been there and done that in Monaco one New Year's Eve. Walked around Monte Caro in an alcohol induced blackout. I had no recollection what transpired from the time we were eating dinner with too much free champagne being served to the time I 'came to' at the Lowes Casino several hours later.
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 12, 2015 1:11:39 GMT -5
Amherst College for you who do not know is a very, very prestigous college...a little Ivy as they are known...very uppity , uppity...and to have a decision like this one..two years after the fact is to say the least and in non little ivy vernaculer just nuts..
I had a phone discussion with my daughter recently and we were discussing family..my grand son, who goes to USC next fall..and she is worried as he heads off about a female possible pulling the rape card...false accusation...
Don't get me wrong she would have no tolerance for any forcibal attention by a male or a female...and knowing her son...has no worries about his forcing himself in any way on another but in todays world , it is the possibilities of a false accusation screwing with some ones life which bothers many..and in that she is correct to so worry..How does one have such a discussion with a child as they head off to a new adventure..? Got me..
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MarleyKeezy78
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Post by MarleyKeezy78 on Jun 12, 2015 6:23:19 GMT -5
So she sexually assaults her rommates boyfriend while he is blacked out, regrets it and he gets kicked out of college... Ummmm So now girls can do whatever they want without repercussions? "now"? What do you mean "now"? You say that like it's a new concept. Girls have been getting away with pulling the "victim" card when they aren't actually one for decades. "Regretting sex after willingly having it with someone, isn't the same as being raped" has been an argument I have made quite often over the years on discussion boards. I worded that wrong. Sorry. I just can't believe she did it to him and he got kicked out, I think that's outrageous What I should have said was, if this girl was blacked out and he did something to her, he would be in jail, yet when the roles are reversed, he still gets kicked out because of what she did. Total bullshit!!!
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 12, 2015 7:12:07 GMT -5
I'm glad DS is out of college and it seems "out of the single field." This latest girlfriend seems to have him firmly tethered. He's naive enough to get "had" like this.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 12, 2015 9:03:54 GMT -5
While I wouldn't say she would know he's blacked out, you're usually quite obviously intoxicated when you're blacked out. Which ventures into the too intoxicated to consent.
As for everything functioning, I had an ex that never had a problem even when he was blacked out, couldn't stand upright, slurring his words. Though he couldn't ahem finish. Made it damn hard to get him to leave me alone when drunk.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 9:14:40 GMT -5
I have more questions about what happened because as presented it makes no sense that he would be found guilty. Did he somehow force her to perform oral sex? Is that the only sexual contact they had? If there is nothing more to the story this is wrong.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 12, 2015 9:43:13 GMT -5
This is just wrong! And I'm sure he'll wind up amply compensated. Actually, I'd like to see him go after her for defamation of character as well
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 12, 2015 9:48:53 GMT -5
I have more questions about what happened because as presented it makes no sense that he would be found guilty. Did he somehow force her to perform oral sex? Is that the only sexual contact they had? If there is nothing more to the story this is wrong. Yes I would like to hear her story. It seems more likely that he was drunk, came on to her, she agreed, they had a little fun, which she instantly regretted because he was her friends' BF. After getting acquainted with some women active in the anti-rape groups, she decided this was a case of date rape. I heard of a similar case with Harvard, three people go out drinking, get really blasted (two of them did some cocaine, too) go back to the apartment, one of the women passes out on a bed, the man lays down on the bed, fondles her a bit, then also passes out. Later, the second woman also gets in the bed, the man wakes up and goes out to the living room to sleep on the couch. Later, the second woman decided the man raped her roommate when she was passed out, because she found a used condom in the bathroom (which later turns out to be her own, from a sexual encounter she had before this incident, with someone else). She claims she and her friend were assaulted and try to get this guy kicked out of Harvard law school. The guy has to face both an investigation by the school and by the police, but eventually, after four years, he is completely aquitted and allowed to finish law school. These kind of cases do a terrible disservice to women who actually have been raped - it encourages those people who believe rape hardly ever actually happens, when in fact, rape does happen and is often not reported, for just this reason - women think they won't be believed. So rapists walk free. IMHO the root causes of these kinds of cases, and of a lot of date rape cases, is young adults getting shit faced drunk (and/or high). There's no reason you can't party and have fun, but getting falling down drunk, to the point where you black out, can make it easy for you either to do something stupid to someone else, or allows someone else to do something to you, but your memory will be too hazy for you to really know what happened, let alone testify about it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2015 9:57:46 GMT -5
You are only seeing one side's interpretation of the facts in the complaint filed. When Amherst responds, you will get the other side. It would make no sense to create a disciplinary expulsion if the full facts were only what the lawsuit from the boy states. I wonder if the other facts will get into the media. If they don't support the story line here, I don't think they will be shown.
Colleges have been doing studies on young men's perception of rape. When asked if they would forcibly have sex with a woman, many respond with Yes. When asked if they would rape a woman, they respond no. There is clearly a misconception about what rape is based on initial studies, so it appears some education is needed. Rape needs more sensitivity because it is almost always a 'he-said' 'she-said' scenario, and in the past the women were re-victimized when trying to address the issue. Unfortunately there are some that lie about it (so they don't get in trouble with parents or they are being retaliatory) but normal people don't do that.
I will be interested to see the other facts in this case to see if it is validated; or if Amherst did not do their job properly due to external pressures. It was good to see that the investigator disregarded the one girls statement that was clearly a lie (saying that the boy told her he raped the girl) & I hope she was fired from her victim advocacy role.
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Ombud
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Post by Ombud on Jun 12, 2015 10:27:26 GMT -5
He was found 50.01% culpable bc he didn't recall anything. Had he filed would she have been found 50.01% culpable and expelled? Double standard?
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deziloooooo
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Post by deziloooooo on Jun 12, 2015 13:29:25 GMT -5
From what I understand and this is not as it was when I was much younger...with young people who are just getting into sexual expression..oral sex is a more or less accepted way of showing what ever..where as sexual intercourse is verbotom until much later..not for all but for many, many folks... times have changed... I admit, { I am expecting many hissssssss and such now..to occasionally going on what is known as free , {cough..cough..ahem..ok, ok yes, yes ..porn sites..}...I honestly do not last long on these sites but yes I do, occasionally, so do indulge ..and in some ways they have been, besides after a short whilepartaking ..found boring and repetitiouse..[just how many ways one can..anyway...am I out of line here mmhmm..if so delete..} found many bonified , not staged..[one can tell]..many college coed , sorority or just dorm room happenings..with fellow male students..all free and romping....While not for all but for so many, times have changed... I bring this up as it possible shows what was on this coeds mind ...a nothing major happening because to her and fellows ..not a biggie at all..where as in another time..a major thing believe me..something not brought out to the public or even so called friends.....just a thought {by the way..when did the Brazilian become such a big thing today...[ I know , am showing my age..sigh..generation gap..}
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