EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on May 31, 2015 19:39:49 GMT -5
But those are easily passed I'm sure. You can fool trained psychologists too. You have absolutely nothing to back up the claim they are easy to fool. It's useless to discuss something with someone that just makes up what they want to to back up their ideas. The tests can be beat- at least the ones I know about like the pre-employment "personality" testing like the MMPI. Spent some time on these in an employment law class. They are about as useful as drug testing IMO- the only people that really benefit are those selling the tests.
All of it can be beat apparently or we wouldn't have bad cops- I wonder what the stats are on the number of- call it false positives and false negatives- potentially good cops dismissed, and bad cops let in.
I think the background investigation and interviews are far superior. And we have already been there- departments will hire bad apples from other departments, those that were fired, those that had legal trouble, etc. If these agencies don't even care enough to not hire problem employees then WTF good is some screening test? What good is it when departments give waivers for prior criminals? Felons even
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 19:43:36 GMT -5
I'm saying it was lucky that the presence of white females was enough to make him conciliatory.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 20:11:01 GMT -5
My former stepbrother is working as a prison guard. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marinrs. Had sheriff called on him and police report filled out while he was still in HS. Passes every test imaginable. Liars are very clever and can fool many people. He also passed with flying colors his tests for the police force. The only thing that kept him off was a hiring freeze. DD flat out lied to a "trained"!psychologist. Had her totally fooled. She's as good a liar as her father.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 20:11:57 GMT -5
Btw, he's extremely cruel to those inmates, he and the other guards, and he laughs about it.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jun 1, 2015 8:32:18 GMT -5
I figured this would happen...
People protest cops and "heavy handed policing" so cops stop it, and crime rates surge.
I don't think cops are perfect. But I can see in high crime areas (which are predominantly African American) that you need more "proactive" policing than you would in a wealthy suburb. I know it's not politically correct, but it is what it is. The higher the crime rates, the more nosy, proactive, and jerks cops have to be.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2015 12:49:03 GMT -5
So, " they" don't want police presence, let them all kill each other. Stop risking decent productive citizens lives for those who don't want them there anyway. After they've all killed each other, maybe what's left will see the light.
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PK Bucko
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Post by PK Bucko on Jun 1, 2015 12:58:01 GMT -5
So, " they" don't want police presence, let them all kill each other. Stop risking decent productive citizens lives for those who don't want them there anyway. After they've all killed each other, maybe what's left will see the light. This is a pervasive opinion here currently. A lot of people have just had it with all of the crime and killing and hearing that "it's the cops fault". It's worse than ever in the areas that were already bad.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 13:46:57 GMT -5
But those are easily passed I'm sure. You can fool trained psychologists too. You're sure? What makes you so sure?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 14:29:22 GMT -5
I've done it and seen others do it. It's really rather fun to watch these "trained" people get fooled. But you go right on believing they know what they're doing. It's sad that they actually think they help people. Believing their own hype so to speak. How did you do it, exactly? Were you pretending you were suicidal? Insane? Sane?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 15:46:33 GMT -5
My former stepbrother is working as a prison guard. He was dishonorably discharged from the Marinrs. Had sheriff called on him and police report filled out while he was still in HS. Passes every test imaginable. Liars are very clever and can fool many people. He also passed with flying colors his tests for the police force. The only thing that kept him off was a hiring freeze. DD flat out lied to a "trained"!psychologist. Had her totally fooled. She's as good a liar as her father. I don't know if those the police tests involve polygraphs, but if they do, it's possible to pay for training to pass a polygraph. The trainers not only teach you, they drill you on a real machine until you can consistently pass. Aside from that, if the test isn't based on giving the right answers to questions, a trained psychologist would simply be looking for verbal and non-verbal cues, as well as general affect. I've read that some tells are involuntary and can't be suppressed, such as mouth twitches, pupil contraction, stammering, etc., but I highly doubt such cues are reliable enough to filter out anyone except possibly the worst (potential) offenders. Although it wouldn't be "easy" per se, I suspect that if an individual is willing to learn the right answers, condition his/her responses, and train to pass a test, there's an excellent probability (s)he'll succeed. And unfortunately, psychopaths and sociopaths--the exact people a police force would hope to avoid hiring--tend to be much better liars than average Joes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 16:13:12 GMT -5
LOL! Neither my friend nor I come anywhere close to looking like hookers. But your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why would we be driving through a residential section? We were looking for the highway and took a wrong turn. We were no where near downtown. You know there is nothing wrong with looking like a hooker. Just saying...
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 17:14:56 GMT -5
How did you do it, exactly? Were you pretending you were suicidal? Insane? Sane? ?? Pretending? I have a degree in abnormal psychology, worked in acute psychiatry for close to two decades and now I do a good bit of psychogeriatric nursing. Lol! Pretending.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 17:37:27 GMT -5
so the choice is between cops killing people and criminals killing people? I thinkthat is a false dichotomy if ever there was one. What if it isn't, in practical terms? What if criminal attitudes are now so common, and criminals so well armed, that police genuinely can't do their jobs when held to the standard that the public demands? If you can't outrun the man who just robbed the store, and you can't shoot him in the back, he gets away, doesn't he? If you can't shoot a black man under any circumstances, and you see that he's carrying a firearm with him, you can't engage him, can you? Your only option is to let the crime proceed. Better that than risk your life in a firefight, and have your life destroyed even if you win. The police aren't going to be the ones to suffer here. There are worse things in life than avoiding criminals, and they now have a perfectly legitimate excuse to do so. In the meantime, the criminals blow each other away, the public gets a taste of just how much they need the police, and Black Persecution Inc. is left with egg on their faces.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jun 1, 2015 17:39:19 GMT -5
A good psychologist could probably spot lies or half truths based on facial expression, reactions, body language and have the answer to a question before is even given. What I doubt is that the Police Departments across country employ the best in their field. Budgets are limiting them from doing that. I'm not saying that some are not on the top of things but that not all of them are.
With enough practice and exercise one can control his/her reactions, tone of voice or body language. Eyes and lips are harder to control.
Durring my multiple interviews with INS I had encounter a couple people that were literaly getting paid for nothing while pretending to be there for a psych evaluation. A six years old could've fooled them!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 17:44:50 GMT -5
A good psychologist could probably spot lies or half truths based on facial expression, reactions, body language and have the answer to a question before is even given. What I doubt is that the Police Departments across country employ the best in their field. Budgets are limiting them from doing that. I'm not saying that some are not on the top of things but that not all of them are. With enough practice and exercise one can control his/her reactions, tone of voice or body language. Eyes and lips are harder to control. Durring my multiple interviews with INS I had encounter a couple people that were literaly getting paid for nothing while pretending to be there for a psych evaluation. A six years old could've fooled them! Math question for you: Suppose the average psychological profiler can detect a psychopathic/racist applicant with 80% probability. How many police departments would Joe, a racist psychopath, have to apply to in order to have at least a 50% chance of being hired by at least one them?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 17:44:57 GMT -5
so the choice is between cops killing people and criminals killing people? I thinkthat is a false dichotomy if ever there was one. What if it isn't, in practical terms? What if criminal attitudes are now so common, and criminals so well armed, that police genuinely can't do their jobs when held to the standard that the public demands? If you can't outrun the man who just robbed the store, and you can't shoot him in the back, he gets away, doesn't he? If you can't shoot a black man under any circumstances, and you see that he's carrying a firearm with him, you can't engage him, can you? Your only option is to let the crime proceed. Better that than risk your life in a firefight, and have your life destroyed even if you win. The police aren't going to be the ones to suffer here. There are worse things in life than avoiding criminals, and they now have a perfectly legitimate excuse to do so. In the meantime, the criminals blow each other away, the public gets a taste of just how much they need the police, and Black Persecution Inc. is left with egg on their faces. videotape it so you can see what is the actual case. Cameras are cheap and would often prove one way or another. Upload the video automatically to some cloud server that thousands of people across the country and job spheres have access to. I had a camera on me when I bartended. Have investigations done by responsible third parties, not by affiliated police depts or prosecuting attnys.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2015 17:49:42 GMT -5
Well, super. I'll just delete it. I don't believe it anymore than I believe the gun hater/ business owner owns guns or a business but it's the internet so let's all lie.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 17:54:20 GMT -5
Well, super. I'll just delete it. I don't believe it anymore than I believe the gun hater/ Wow! owner owns guns or a business but it's the internet so let's all lie. Wow! What a bizarre thought process. I think you need to see a psychologist.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2015 17:55:16 GMT -5
Well, when I find a real one, maybe I will.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 18:05:03 GMT -5
What if it isn't, in practical terms? What if criminal attitudes are now so common, and criminals so well armed, that police genuinely can't do their jobs when held to the standard that the public demands? If you can't outrun the man who just robbed the store, and you can't shoot him in the back, he gets away, doesn't he? If you can't shoot a black man under any circumstances, and you see that he's carrying a firearm with him, you can't engage him, can you? Your only option is to let the crime proceed. Better that than risk your life in a firefight, and have your life destroyed even if you win. The police aren't going to be the ones to suffer here. There are worse things in life than avoiding criminals, and they now have a perfectly legitimate excuse to do so. In the meantime, the criminals blow each other away, the public gets a taste of just how much they need the police, and Black Persecution Inc. is left with egg on their faces. videotape it so you can see what is the actual case. Cameras are cheap and would often prove one way or another. Upload the video automatically to some cloud server that thousands of people across the country and job spheres have access to. I had a camera on me when I bartended. Have investigations done by responsible third parties, not by affiliated police depts or prosecuting attnys. What if the public has grossly unrealistic expectations of how police should engage criminals? What if the police are dooming themselves to ineffective law enforcement by capturing their activities on film? I'm reminded of the 1970's film "Titicut Follies" about life in a US mental institution. It created public outrage over how the patients were being treated, while doctors and nurses that actually worked in the institutions struggled to explain that such were the harsh realities of life. The movie was eventually banned in the US. The public is not always reasonable. We've recently seen riots and blow-ups over cases where officers acted well within the parameters of their job. As for the inquiries, the investigations are already supposed to be done by "responsible third parties", e.g. Internal Affairs. The harsher the investigators are, the less police trust them, the more they close ranks, and the harder it is for the investigators to do their jobs. In short, there's quite possibly no such thing as effective investigating by "responsible third parties". If there is, you'd think we'd have implemented it by now.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jun 1, 2015 18:30:51 GMT -5
Problem with the psychopaths Virgil is that they can hide pretty well their feelings or intentions. But a well trained psychiatrist could figure that out. The psychopats are easily detectable because they seem too perfect. There is a percentage of mistakes/awkward moments and so on in an interviu that is normal. If everything is perfect than that is a big red flag and further analysis is needed. It might be that the candidate is simply perfect but that is rare. So to answer your question Joe Psyco should never make it. Even past a beginner psychiatrist!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 18:46:56 GMT -5
Problem with the psychopaths Virgil is that they can hide pretty well their feelings or intentions. But a well trained psychiatrist could figure that out. The psychopats are easily detectable because they seem too perfect. There is a percentage of mistakes/awkward moments and so on in an interviu that is normal. If everything is perfect than that is a big red flag and further analysis is needed. It might be that the candidate is simply perfect but that is rare. So to answer your question Joe Psyco should never make it. Even past a beginner psychiatrist! Psychopaths are usually very, very, smart and quite charming. They know exactly how the game is played and their façade usually IS perfect. Dig a little deeper, however, and the crazy begins to leak out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 18:52:45 GMT -5
videotape it so you can see what is the actual case. Cameras are cheap and would often prove one way or another. Upload the video automatically to some cloud server that thousands of people across the country and job spheres have access to. I had a camera on me when I bartended. Have investigations done by responsible third parties, not by affiliated police depts or prosecuting attnys. What if the public has grossly unrealistic expectations of how police should engage criminals? What if the police are dooming themselves to ineffective law enforcement by capturing their activities on film? I'm reminded of the 1970's film "Titicut Follies" about life in a US mental institution. It created public outrage over how the patients were being treated, while doctors and nurses that actually worked in the institutions struggled to explain that such were the harsh realities of life. The movie was eventually banned in the US. The public is not always reasonable. We've recently seen riots and blow-ups over cases where officers acted well within the parameters of their job. As for the inquiries, the investigations are already supposed to be done by "responsible third parties", e.g. Internal Affairs. The harsher the investigators are, the less police trust them, the more they close ranks, and the harder it is for the investigators to do their jobs. In short, there's quite possibly no such thing as effective investigating by "responsible third parties". If there is, you'd think we'd have implemented it by now. I think if there ever was a false dichotomy this is one. If it were not one, I would choose people getting shot by criminals and a police dept that we can trust. A government not for the people is a bigger danger then criminals gone wild. And it is the better moral choice. I am not complicit in a criminals choice. Condoning dishonest policing, I would be.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2015 18:57:51 GMT -5
A good psychologist could probably spot lies or half truths based on facial expression, reactions, body language and have the answer to a question before is even given. What I doubt is that the Police Departments across country employ the best in their field. Budgets are limiting them from doing that. I'm not saying that some are not on the top of things but that not all of them are. With enough practice and exercise one can control his/her reactions, tone of voice or body language. Eyes and lips are harder to control. Durring my multiple interviews with INS I had encounter a couple people that were literaly getting paid for nothing while pretending to be there for a psych evaluation. A six years old could've fooled them! Math question for you: Suppose the average psychological profiler can detect a psychopathic/racist applicant with 80% probability. How many police departments would Joe, a racist psychopath, have to apply to in order to have at least a 50% chance of being hired by at least one them? two and a half. One in five is 20%, so two in five is 40%, so two and a half is 50%. Don't be jealous, I got 2nd place in a math contest in 8th grade. I am gifted.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 19:16:22 GMT -5
I think if there ever was a false dichotomy this is one. If it were not one, I would choose people getting shot by criminals and a police dept that we can trust. A government not for the people is a bigger danger then criminals gone wild. And it is the better moral choice. I am not complicit in a criminals choice. Condoning dishonest policing, I would be. What a sad thing it is that agree with you. two and a half. One in five is 20%, so two in five is 40%, so two and a half is 50%. Don't be jealous, I got 2nd place in a math contest in 8th grade. I am gifted. The answer is 4, actually. But I'll leave it to readers to figure out.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 1, 2015 19:27:54 GMT -5
Problem with the psychopaths Virgil is that they can hide pretty well their feelings or intentions. But a well trained psychiatrist could figure that out. The psychopats are easily detectable because they seem too perfect. There is a percentage of mistakes/awkward moments and so on in an interviu that is normal. If everything is perfect than that is a big red flag and further analysis is needed. It might be that the candidate is simply perfect but that is rare. So to answer your question Joe Psyco should never make it. Even past a beginner psychiatrist! Psychopaths are usually very, very, smart and quite charming. They know exactly how the game is played and their façade usually IS perfect. Dig a little deeper, however, and the crazy begins to leak out.
Interviewer: If you had one wish, what would you ask for? Applicant: World peace. Interviewer: If you saw a wounded dog on the side of the road, what would you do? Applicant: I'd take it to a vet and make sure it found a good home. Interviewer: What is your favourite animal? Applicant: I like snow leopards. Interviewer: ... Applicant: ... Interviewer: Get out. Get out now! Don't you dare ever come back! GET OUT! Like you say: a perfect facade, but sometimes they slip up. This interviewer got lucky.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jun 1, 2015 19:28:39 GMT -5
Hate to disappoint you hickle but that was not a question about percentages or probabilities. acording to your answer, he should make it somewhere in the midle of the third interview which is kinda odd since for the first half he was pegged as a psychopath. How would the good doctor go? "Hey, I know that this guy likes inflicting pain and is full of hate towards blacks and Asians and Muslims but he seems to be fine now! He is visiting his mother every Sunday! I should pass him!" Real life doesn't work that way; you're found/figured to be a psychopath, that's wha you are! Every time a police department does a background check on you in regards to hiring/interviewing you, it should pop up. But then there are the privacy laws and we might end up hiring a nutcase waiting for the right moment.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 1, 2015 19:35:31 GMT -5
Hate to disappoint you hickle but that was not a question about percentages or probabilities. acording to your answer, he should make it somewhere in the midle of the third interview which is kinda odd since for the first half he was pegged as a psychopath. How would the good doctor go? "Hey, I know that this guy likes inflicting pain and is full of hate towards blacks and Asians and Muslims but he seems to be fine now! He is visiting his mother every Sunday! I should pass him!"Real life doesn't work that way; you're found/figured to be a psychopath, that's wha you are! Every time a police department does a background check on you in regards to hiring/interviewing you, it should pop up. But then there are the privacy laws and we might end up hiring a nutcase waiting for the right moment. ...until you speak to his mother and it turns out he visits just to cajole her out of her pension cheque.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 1, 2015 19:38:10 GMT -5
I like the idea that no police presence was wanted so none is present. Let the criminals have a field day robbing and killing. Maybe whatever is left will be more grateful for those who risk their lives for those who don't deserve it. Isn't it funny how the criminals that are shot are always "non-violent decent law abiding?" Spoken by the offal that raised these thugs to begin with.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Jun 1, 2015 21:35:08 GMT -5
two and a half. One in five is 20%, so two in five is 40%, so two and a half is 50%. Don't be jealous, I got 2nd place in a math contest in 8th grade. I am gifted. The answer is 4, actually. But I'll leave it to readers to figure out. 4/5 ^ 4 < .5
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