Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 31, 2015 10:14:03 GMT -5
Countering the narrative that police are in the habit of blowing people away for the fun of it, via the Wall Street Journal (bold by me): In Milwaukee, homicides were up 180% by May 17 over the same period the previous year. Through April, shootings in St. Louis were up 39%, robberies 43%, and homicides 25%. “Crime is the worst I’ve ever seen it,” said St. Louis Alderman Joe Vacarro at a May 7 City Hall hearing.
Murders in Atlanta were up 32% as of mid-May. Shootings in Chicago had increased 24% and homicides 17%. Shootings and other violent felonies in Los Angeles had spiked by 25%; in New York, murder was up nearly 13%, and gun violence 7%.
Those citywide statistics from law-enforcement officials mask even more startling neighborhood-level increases. Shooting incidents are up 500% in an East Harlem precinct compared with last year; in a South Central Los Angeles police division, shooting victims are up 100%.
By contrast, the first six months of 2014 continued a 20-year pattern of growing public safety. Violent crime in the first half of last year dropped 4.6% nationally and property crime was down 7.5%. Though comparable national figures for the first half of 2015 won’t be available for another year, the January through June 2014 crime decline is unlikely to be repeated…
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This incessant drumbeat against the police has resulted in what St. Louis police chief Sam Dotson last November called the “Ferguson effect.” Cops are disengaging from discretionary enforcement activity and the “criminal element is feeling empowered,” Mr. Dotson reported. Arrests in St. Louis city and county by that point had dropped a third since the shooting of Michael Brown in August. Not surprisingly, homicides in the city surged 47% by early November and robberies in the county were up 82%.
Similar “Ferguson effects” are happening across the country as officers scale back on proactive policing under the onslaught of anti-cop rhetoric. Arrests in Baltimore were down 56% in May compared with 2014.
For every action, a consequence.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 11:21:58 GMT -5
so the choice is between cops killing people and criminals killing people? I thinkthat is a false dichotomy if ever there was one.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 31, 2015 11:27:58 GMT -5
so the choice is between cops killing people and criminals killing people? I thinkthat is a false dichotomy if ever there was one. Are you implying that cops are shooting people indiscriminately just like gang banger or something? Or maybe just because they feel like? The cops did good taking a step back and prove their point. It kinda makes you think that if it is anarchy that people want then anarchy they shall have! Too bad that all this lead to more loss of life.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 11:35:49 GMT -5
so the choice is between cops killing people and criminals killing people? I thinkthat is a false dichotomy if ever there was one. Are you implying that cops are shooting people indiscriminately just like gang banger or something? Or maybe just because they feel like? The cops did good taking a step back and prove their point. It kinda makes you think that if it is anarchy that people want then anarchy they shall have! Too bad that all this lead to more loss of life. I hope I am not implying that cops are shooting people indiscriminately. I was trying to say that outright. Sorry for the confusion. There is a cop somewhere that shot 25 dogs in the last few years, not people but definately killing indiscriminately and has no respect for life. thefreethoughtproject.com/police-department-shot-92-dogs-years-officers-killed-25/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 11:38:57 GMT -5
People want to say that it is only a minority of police who kill people. The problem is that that minority gets to do that with no consequences most of the time. Pretty much any cop out there could decide to kill you or someone you love and not be punished for it. As long as justice fails like that, many people will not respect authority.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 12:20:47 GMT -5
Funny since I don't know or hang with criminals, I don't have any issues with the police. They don't come killing me or my friends and family.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 31, 2015 12:58:25 GMT -5
Funny since I don't know or hang with criminals, I don't have any issues with the police. They don't come killing me or my friends and family. As a blond white woman, I also haven't had any issues with the police. But IMHO that's at least partly because of reverse profiling, don't you think? As white women that are reasonably well groomed and dressed, we are almost the last people that the police expect to commit crimes so we benefit from our appearance not necessarily our behavior. Let's be real - add in a nice car and short skirt to the picture and we could practically drive around town dragging a body behind us and nobody would say "boo."
Let's not kid ourselves that the same is true if we were male. Or had dark skin and hair. Or dressed in tattered clothing. Or... or... or...
Some of our avoidance of police has to do with our choices, but some of it also has to do with genetic lottery and it's worth considering how much each of those things comes into play here.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 31, 2015 12:58:56 GMT -5
Realy hickle? I'm no saint but never had problems of any kind with the police. Even when I got pulled over for speeding like a maniac they were absolutely polite. But Ofcourse I know better than to point a gun or even a finger at a police man for that mater.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 13:01:47 GMT -5
People want to say that it is only a minority of police who kill people. The problem is that that minority gets to do that with no consequences most of the time. Pretty much any cop out there could decide to kill you or someone you love and not be punished for it. As long as justice fails like that, many people will not respect authority. Cops are out in dangerous situations all the time. They need to make split second decisions about life and death. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they get it wrong on purpose. It's often not easy to determine which one it is so they often get the benefit of the doubt. Due to the nature of the business I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 31, 2015 13:03:13 GMT -5
Milee, my "genetic lottery", the way I dress sometimes just because I don't care or the fact that I speak with a noticeable accent would make me a prime target. Yet, somehow I never got stoped, starred at or questioned for any reason or purpose.
Might that have something to do with the fact that I mind my own business and I don't actively seek trouble?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 13:09:33 GMT -5
People want to say that it is only a minority of police who kill people. The problem is that that minority gets to do that with no consequences most of the time. Pretty much any cop out there could decide to kill you or someone you love and not be punished for it. As long as justice fails like that, many people will not respect authority. Cops are out in dangerous situations all the time. They need to make split second decisions about life and death. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they get it wrong on purpose. It's often not easy to determine which one it is so they often get the benefit of the doubt. Due to the nature of the business I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. Many times they are not interviewed for the first 10 days following an incident. So they are accorded plenty of time to get their stories straight. One way to make it easy to determine is to have independent grand juries. Get the police and district attorney out of the business of policing their own.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 31, 2015 13:13:33 GMT -5
People want to say that it is only a minority of police who kill people. The problem is that that minority gets to do that with no consequences most of the time. Pretty much any cop out there could decide to kill you or someone you love and not be punished for it. As long as justice fails like that, many people will not respect authority. Cops are out in dangerous situations all the time. They need to make split second decisions about life and death. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes they get it wrong on purpose. It's often not easy to determine which one it is so they often get the benefit of the doubt. Due to the nature of the business I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. I fully agree in split second situations. When Freddie Gray took off running, should the police have chased him? Split second decision, benefit of the doubt no problem. Once they had him down and cuffed, I give them no benefit of the doubt in actions they undertook.
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milee
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Post by milee on May 31, 2015 13:15:14 GMT -5
Milee, my "genetic lottery", the way I dress sometimes just because I don't care or the fact that I speak with a noticeable accent would make me a prime target. Yet, somehow I never got stoped, starred at or questioned for any reason or purpose. Might that have something to do with the fact that I mind my own business and I don't actively seek trouble? Definitely. Behaving yourself, not breaking the law, avoiding criminals and bad situations definitely works in everybody's favor.
I also think there are times when even if you're not doing anything wrong, you come into contact with law enforcement and your appearance can come into play. I'm remembering years ago when DH and I were driving across the country in our tiny Honda Civic. In the middle of nowhere Oklahoma on I40 one of our tires blew out and we started spinning across the highway. An 18 wheel semi hit us, but I was amazed and grateful at the skill of the driver. No idea how he managed this with such little time to react, but instead of t-boning and flattening us, he managed to angle so that he scraped the side of the car instead. Very scary - his lug nuts tore huge chunks out of the side of the car, but that was way better than the alternative.
We finally all came to a stop and I gave the driver of the semi a huge hug and thanked him for avoiding a worse accident. He was a nice guy. Thirty or forty something black man with one front tooth missing and maybe a little scraggly looking, poor grammar. But he sure looked great to me! Anyway, when the troopers came to take the accident report, the first thing I did was gush about how this nice driver had saved our lives. The trooper listened politely to DH and I then turned to the semi driver and was incredibly rude and dismissive. Even called him "boy." I was shocked and embarrassed.
He was minding his own business and doing a good job, but didn't get the same treatment we did. Nobody shot at him but it was a fairly graphic illustration for me of how appearance can change the way law enforcement perceives you and acts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 13:16:14 GMT -5
what is political about police shooting people? no complaint, just asking.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 31, 2015 13:28:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the political angle on police shootings. I believe that some of it happens because there are still people that consider themselves better than others or believe that they can do whatever they want. There is still the race issue still present in the population at large and police force is no exception. Might some of the latest shootings be based on that pure racial hate? Possible but that doesn't mean that all cops are out there to shoot people whenever they feel like. "Crazy" is a forever present factor wherever you go. Thing is that we can't screen for that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 13:31:04 GMT -5
I'm not sure about the political angle on police shootings. I believe that some of it happens because there are still people that consider themselves better than others or believe that they can do whatever they want. There is still the race issue still present in the population at large and police force is no exception. Might some of the latest shootings be based on that pure racial hate? Possible but that doesn't mean that all cops are out there to shoot people whenever they feel like. "Crazy" is a forever present factor wherever you go. Thing is that we can't screen for that.but you could kind of screen for that. Don't hire cops who were fired for misconduct. That would get rid of some.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on May 31, 2015 13:41:07 GMT -5
I'd definetly disagree with hiring a cop that was fired for misconduct. That would be a big no-no! What I meant was that even if a test were to be administered there is no way of knowing before hand who has racial issues or predisposed to fly off the handle. Is just a job and like on any job there are risks of it and then on top in their case there is the constant danger(or about) that could trigger something.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 31, 2015 14:08:14 GMT -5
Funny since I don't know or hang with criminals, I don't have any issues with the police. They don't come killing me or my friends and family. As a blond white woman, I also haven't had any issues with the police. But IMHO that's at least partly because of reverse profiling, don't you think? As white women that are reasonably well groomed and dressed, we are almost the last people that the police expect to commit crimes so we benefit from our appearance not necessarily our behavior. Let's be real - add in a nice car and short skirt to the picture and we could practically drive around town dragging a body behind us and nobody would say "boo."
Let's not kid ourselves that the same is true if we were male. Or had dark skin and hair. Or dressed in tattered clothing. Or... or... or...
Some of our avoidance of police has to do with our choices, but some of it also has to do with genetic lottery and it's worth considering how much each of those things comes into play here.
I would hazard a guess that males are profiled much more severely than females, so I agree with you here. I also think it very much depends upon the type of car you drive. I can drive TD's STi waaaay over the speed limit and get away with it, he cannot. He frequently gets stopped just because he is out late driving a sports car. And another thing largely depends upon how you respond to police. We've been stopped where the cop has been incredibly aggressive (in Seattle, which has major problems too). TD did everything in his power not to antagonize the cop and as he had no reason (and I suspect a witness of me sitting in the front seat), he let us go. I don't think things would have gone near as smoothly if I was not there. TD was not drunk, he was not going over the speed limit and he was not weaving. His only 'crime' was that he was a male driving a sports car at 2 am (he had just picked me up at the airport). I don't think the cop knew that there was a second person in the car when he got stopped, as I had reclined the seat and was dozing.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on May 31, 2015 14:21:31 GMT -5
what is political about police shooting people? no complaint, just asking. Nothing political about it, hickle. I think this was probably meant for Current Events and just got misplaced. I'll move it there. mmhmm, Politics Moderator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 14:32:02 GMT -5
I'd definetly disagree with hiring a cop that was fired for misconduct. That would be a big no-no! What I meant was that even if a test were to be administered there is no way of knowing before hand who has racial issues or predisposed to fly off the handle. Is just a job and like on any job there are risks of it and then on top in their case there is the constant danger(or about) that could trigger something. Actually there are a whole bunch of psychological tests designed specifically to identify racism and crazy.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 14:39:30 GMT -5
But those are easily passed I'm sure. You can fool trained psychologists too.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on May 31, 2015 14:41:17 GMT -5
Funny since I don't know or hang with criminals, I don't have any issues with the police. They don't come killing me or my friends and family. As a blond white woman, I also haven't had any issues with the police. But IMHO that's at least partly because of reverse profiling, don't you think? As white women that are reasonably well groomed and dressed, we are almost the last people that the police expect to commit crimes so we benefit from our appearance not necessarily our behavior. Let's be real - add in a nice car and short skirt to the picture and we could practically drive around town dragging a body behind us and nobody would say "boo."
Let's not kid ourselves that the same is true if we were male. Or had dark skin and hair. Or dressed in tattered clothing. Or... or... or...
Some of our avoidance of police has to do with our choices, but some of it also has to do with genetic lottery and it's worth considering how much each of those things comes into play here.
And some of it has to do with who we associate with and the places we go, things we do - no matter what the color of our skin or the clothes we are wearing.
I say this because I can see how it might be difficult to separate oneself from one's family/friends/aquaintances IF you have no where else to go and don't really want to partake in the activities that they are partaking in.
What do you do when a relative (maybe a close one) starts to hang around with people who have, um, a criminal influence. Generally, I'm against the stereotypes that peg people based on their family or the way they dress or the people they hang out with... but when that family/people hanging with/way of dress involves violence... well there's gonna be some splash over. You might not catch "gayness" or "religious thinking" or a "mental illness" from close contact with other people but things like violence and the kind of behavior that doesn't lead to a good end ARE spreadable thru close contact. If you don't take up violence or the bad behavior you still run a chance of being negatively impacted by in.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 31, 2015 15:20:28 GMT -5
And some of it has to do with who we associate with and the places we go, things we do - no matter what the color of our skin or the clothes we are wearing.
Absolutely. Me, a very good friend of mine and a coworker (who was a black male) were in Houston at a car show. We left late at night after dinner, totally sober, and wound up in a subdivision that was very upscale. Black male was driving, he thought he knew of a shortcut and had it wrong so we were trying to weave our way out of the wrong turn.
We got stopped by a cop and he was VERY aggressive until he realized that there were also 2 white females in the car (the car belonged to my friend), and he really backed off.
There is no doubt in my mind that police profile on gender and race after some of these instances, even if there is no reason to stop the car.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 17:51:11 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 17:53:14 GMT -5
But those are easily passed I'm sure. You can fool trained psychologists too. You have absolutely nothing to back up the claim they are easy to fool. It's useless to discuss something with someone that just makes up what they want to to back up their ideas.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 18:01:56 GMT -5
How do you know I don't know how to fool them or how they can be fooled?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 18:05:21 GMT -5
How do you know I don't know how to fool them or how they can be fooled? Do you?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 31, 2015 18:17:09 GMT -5
LOL! Neither my friend nor I come anywhere close to looking like hookers. But your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why would we be driving through a residential section? We were looking for the highway and took a wrong turn. We were no where near downtown.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 18:30:25 GMT -5
LOL! Neither my friend nor I come anywhere close to looking like hookers. But your comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why would we be driving through a residential section? We were looking for the highway and took a wrong turn. We were no where near downtown. My understanding, for those that are racist against black guys, they aren't much better with the white girls that hang out with black guys. It has nothing to do with how you look, any more than how your friend looks.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on May 31, 2015 18:47:10 GMT -5
This is all a moot point Later.
I seriously doubt that the cop thought we were hookers, especially after stopping the car. It was more that our coworker was a black man in an upscale residential area. The cop did a 180 when he saw us and spoke to us in the car. If he thought we were hookers, he'd have no reason to be conciliatory towards us, for stopping the car.
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