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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 17:01:47 GMT -5
I might not like what you say, but I will defend to my death your right to say it. Didn't that use to be a very patriotic saying? If the university gets government funding, how can it violate the constitutional rights of its students? I thought governments were not allowed to do that. from the article below, and a year later the court reaffirmed that “the mere dissemination of ideas—no matter how offensive to good taste—on a state university campus may not be shut off in the name alone of conventions of decency.”www.newrepublic.com/article/121269/oklahoma-fraternity-racist-video-shouldnt-get-students-expelledIf it were a question of free speech or government can censor some speech it deems hateful, which side do you come down on? eta: Just to be clear, I am not asking if you approve of what was said. No one likes that kind of talk. I am asking if you approve of the right to say it or do you want government censoring it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 17:17:30 GMT -5
Did the government censor it? They weren't thrown in jail.
You have the right to say whatever you want. You just aren't free from the consequences of what you say...
Going to a specific college is not a right. Having a fraternity is not a right.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 12, 2015 17:35:10 GMT -5
The trouble I have with hate speech laws is that I don't trust politicians (or the courts, for that matter) to reasonably define "hate".
For example, I believe anyone should have the right to publicly proclaim that race X or group Y is genetically inferior, criminal, ugly, lazy, unfit for procreation, etc., etc.
I draw the line at inciting violence, such as putting out a fatwa on a particular race.
Some people have no interest in distinguishing between the two, which is no small problem. Here in Canada, our "human rights" kangaroo courts have been used to muzzle or outright punish journalists, teachers, ministers, etc. the state has absolutely no business muzzling or punishing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 17:51:39 GMT -5
Did the government censor it? They weren't thrown in jail. You have the right to say whatever you want. You just aren't free from the consequences of what you say... Going to a specific college is not a right. Having a fraternity is not a right. The government expelled them for speech. Going to a specific college might not be a right, but does the government get to censor your speech after you are accepted there? Telling students they are not allowed to say certain ideas or they will get expelled sounds like censorship to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:02:20 GMT -5
The ACLU can't make up its mind on this. At first they said the decision to expel was okay, then they changed and said it is unconstitutional. I dont know how to link that. It is from Reason online. I can link reason but it is part of the blog and you would get the whole blog, not just that part. reason.com/blog
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:06:16 GMT -5
I personally wouldn't have chosen to expel. I think natural consequences would have been sufficient. The dressing down was appropriate, etc. However I don't see the university as 'the governent'... The court may say differently. I guess we will see.
In general though, being free to say whatever you want does not mean being free from the consequences of what you say...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 12, 2015 18:09:30 GMT -5
Did the government censor it? They weren't thrown in jail. You have the right to say whatever you want. You just aren't free from the consequences of what you say... Going to a specific college is not a right. Having a fraternity is not a right. The government expelled them for speech. Going to a specific college might not be a right, but does the government get to censor your speech after you are accepted there? Telling students they are not allowed to say certain ideas or they will get expelled sounds like censorship to me. The president of the university expelled the two students. The president of the university is not a member of the local, state or federal government.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:11:41 GMT -5
I personally wouldn't have chosen to expel. I think natural consequences would have been sufficient. The dressing down was appropriate, etc. However I don't see the university as 'the governent'... The court may say differently. I guess we will see. In general though, being free to say whatever you want does not mean being free from the consequences of what you say... Who pays the university personnel payroll? Who hires the deans, professors etc?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 12, 2015 18:11:45 GMT -5
You have the right to say whatever you want. You just aren't free from the consequences of what you say...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:16:06 GMT -5
I personally wouldn't have chosen to expel. I think natural consequences would have been sufficient. The dressing down was appropriate, etc. However I don't see the university as 'the governent'... The court may say differently. I guess we will see. In general though, being free to say whatever you want does not mean being free from the consequences of what you say... Who pays the university personnel payroll? Who hires the deans, professors etc? Tuition. Alumni. Administration. Government doesn't employ or interview university personnel...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 12, 2015 18:20:03 GMT -5
The two expelled students should slither off into the sunset and hope future employers don't recognize their names.
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Post by jkapp on Mar 12, 2015 18:24:35 GMT -5
Yes, I feel anyone should be able to say what they want. I don't believe the first amendment means Freedom of speech unless it hurts someone's feelings. I know the law has ruled that you can't yell "Fire!" in a crowd for safety's sake...but I don't see what these kids did was anything like that.
The irony here is you have to wonder how many students who protested against this fraternity have ipods full of music that has lyrics containing:
1) the term n**** 2) killing n****s 3) killing cops 4) calling women bitches 5) smoking dope, selling drugs, using drugs, etc and even more.
I don't see how those students who have music like that can take a moral stance against anyone else.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 12, 2015 18:25:20 GMT -5
The two expelled students should slither off into the sunset and hope future employers don't recognize their names. Or they can become rappers/hip-hop "artists." They'll fit right in.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:25:24 GMT -5
Who pays the university personnel payroll? Who hires the deans, professors etc? Tuition. Alumni. Administration. Government doesn't employ or interview university personnel... I do not believe that is correct. I think when the university of Arkansas was hiring a new atheletic director the state government was involved. I know many state universities get money from state lotteries Who hires the president of an university? I don't really know and you might be right, so treat this more as a question then me saying you are wrong.
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 12, 2015 18:26:35 GMT -5
... The president of the university expelled the two students. The president of the university is not a member of the local, state or federal government. www.okhighered.org/state-system/
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 12, 2015 18:27:30 GMT -5
Why? I mean that sincerely. What does such speech accomplish, other than indoctrinating youth into believing that garbage, whipping up others who also believe it into a frenzy to do something stupid, intimidate the specific group you're talking about, and proclaim your complete ignorance and asshattery to the the world. Are any of those things really beneficial to society in any way whatsoever? I tend towards no, with the exception of the stupid people self identifying so the rest of us can avoid them. Now if we could just get a law passed that after they stand up and proclaim their stupidity we get to brand/tattoo the word racist on their forehead in big block letters so those who weren't around to hear the speech can be notified too. Since when has speech been solely about being beneficial to society? There is a ton of crap out there being said that is absolutely meaningless. Who gets to decide what is beneficial and what is not?
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 12, 2015 18:28:30 GMT -5
Tuition. Alumni. Administration. Government doesn't employ or interview university personnel... I do not believe that is correct. I think when the university of Arkansas was hiring a new atheletic director the state government was involved. I know many state universities get money from state lotteries Who hires the president of an university? I don't really know and you might be right, so treat this more as a question then me saying you are wrong. It depends on the State.
The UC system takes federal and state money, but is not run by the feds or the State. They (the campuses) are run by a Board of Regents. The regents do the major hiring like the president; the university presidents hire key staff like deans and athletic directors.
Every school and system is different.
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 12, 2015 18:28:39 GMT -5
One could possibly argue the mindset of the expelled students and others who sang on the bus could have financially harmed black students by not allowing them to be members of the fraternity.
Post-college, being a member of a well known and respected colkege or university fraternity often opens employment doors, especially if the company CEO was a member of the same fraternity.
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 12, 2015 18:30:30 GMT -5
The two expelled students should slither off into the sunset and hope future employers don't recognize their names. Or they can become rappers/hip-hop "artists." They'll fit right in. Please, no. One Vanilla Ice was more than enough.
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 12, 2015 18:42:51 GMT -5
I do not believe that is correct. I think when the university of Arkansas was hiring a new atheletic director the state government was involved. I know many state universities get money from state lotteries Who hires the president of an university? I don't really know and you might be right, so treat this more as a question then me saying you are wrong. It depends on the State.
The UC system takes federal and state money, but is not run by the feds or the State. They (the campuses) are run by a Board of Regents. The regents do the major hiring like the president; the university presidents hire key staff like deans and athletic directors.
Every school and system is different.
The University is governed by The Regents, which under Article IX, Section 9 of the California Constitution has "full powers of organization and governance" subject only to very specific areas of legislative control. The article states that "the university shall be entirely independent of all political and sectarian influence and kept free therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and in the administration of its affairs." Board Membership
The Board consists of 26 members as defined in Article IX, Section 9, all of whom have a vote:
18 regents are appointed by the governor for 12-year terms
regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/about/
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 18:48:56 GMT -5
I think you should have the right to say anything that's not inciting to a crime... However, having the right doesn't protect you from the consequences imposed by non-governmental entities (society, your employer, other people in the general public, et cetera) This "SAE chant" should be perfectly allowed by LAW, but the consequences they get from the public, from the news, from the Greek Council (or whatever they call the local governing board of sororities and fraternities)... that should be their issue to deal with. I also think that (as was mentioned by jkapp) anyone that has songs containing "ni**a" (or other variations) on their play lists has no right whatsoever to complain. Either it's a bad/unacceptable word... or it isn't. People, as individuals, can't have it both ways.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 12, 2015 18:57:11 GMT -5
It depends on the State.
The UC system takes federal and state money, but is not run by the feds or the State. They (the campuses) are run by a Board of Regents. The regents do the major hiring like the president; the university presidents hire key staff like deans and athletic directors.
Every school and system is different.
The University is governed by The Regents, which under Article IX, Section 9 of the California Constitution has "full powers of organization and governance" subject only to very specific areas of legislative control. The article states that "the university shall be entirely independent of all political and sectarian influence and kept free therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and in the administration of its affairs." Board Membership
The Board consists of 26 members as defined in Article IX, Section 9, all of whom have a vote:
18 regents are appointed by the governor for 12-year terms
regents.universityofcalifornia.edu/about/ Yes, and your point is . . . . . . ? (said respectfully! )
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 19:01:47 GMT -5
So are Jkapp and me the only ones who think censorship by the government is definitely wrong in cases of hate speech? With a qualified wrong from Virgil? Or am I not understanding the other posters views correctly and more believe this?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2015 19:05:16 GMT -5
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 12, 2015 19:44:03 GMT -5
Yes, and your point is . . . . . . ? (said respectfully! ) Created by the state constitution. Appointed by the state governor. The whole system is "government".
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Post by Shooby on Mar 12, 2015 19:50:51 GMT -5
Isn't the point of free speech is protecting speech that others don't agree with or find offensive.? Why would we need free speech laws if everyone agreed? Duh.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 12, 2015 20:23:06 GMT -5
Why? I mean that sincerely. What does such speech accomplish, other than indoctrinating youth into believing that garbage, whipping up others who also believe it into a frenzy to do something stupid, intimidate the specific group you're talking about, and proclaim your complete ignorance and asshattery to the the world. Are any of those things really beneficial to society in any way whatsoever? I tend towards no, with the exception of the stupid people self identifying so the rest of us can avoid them. Now if we could just get a law passed that after they stand up and proclaim their stupidity we get to brand/tattoo the word racist on their forehead in big block letters so those who weren't around to hear the speech can be notified too. Our laws are founded on the presumption that society is reasonably able to cope with a plurality of ideas, including those which may be unpopular, objectionable, or unsubstantiated. This in turn is founded on the observation that governments with a license to censor are/were notoriously prone to abuse their authority. A pertinent example of this is linked-to by the article in the OP: jailed for thoughtcrime. In plain terms, since no two people can agree on precisely what is and isn't true or what is and isn't harmful, the earliest proponents of democracy strongly advocated erring on the side of individual liberty. Ergo John's staunch belief that race X isn't superior, race Y isn't criminal, etc. does not preclude Joe from expressing his staunch belief that race X is superior, race Y is criminal, etc. Because I have no faith in governments to properly regulate the dissemination of ideas, I fall into the same category as these liberals of old. I appreciate being able to draw the prophet Mohammed with a bomb in his turban without having to justify my doing so to the government du jour.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Mar 12, 2015 21:47:56 GMT -5
Yes, and your point is . . . . . . ? (said respectfully! ) Created by the state constitution. Appointed by the state governor. The whole system is "government". Respectfully, not seeing it . . . copied directly from your own posting: The article states that "the university shall be entirely independent of all political and sectarian influence and kept free therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and in the administration of its affairs." (emphasis mine)
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 12, 2015 21:58:44 GMT -5
Created by the state constitution. Appointed by the state governor. The whole system is "government". Respectfully, not seeing it . . . copied directly from your own posting: The article states that "the university shall be entirely independent of all political and sectarian influence and kept free therefrom in the appointment of its Regents and in the administration of its affairs." (emphasis mine) Yes. The same could be said of other governmental entitles as well. For example, the FBI and the Supreme Court.
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Post by EVT1 on Mar 12, 2015 22:25:50 GMT -5
I have no problem with hateful speech, and I also have no problems with the consequences that come with it.
Didn't we go down this road already with the 'bong hits for Jesus' deal when it comes to schools?
You open your trap and spew garbage, that is your right, and it is the right of a school to kick you out, it has nothing to do with government. Hell- what if I have a government job and post a nice rant about my stupid pig-fucker boss? Is my job protected there? Of course not.
Or more recently how about the firing of police officers over racist remarks, emails, etc. No protection. Seems fair to me- you can say what you want, the government cannot jail you, duct tape your mouth shut, prosecute you, etc.- but they sure as shit do not have to employ you, or in the college deal- allow you to attend classes, allow you to have a fraternity, etc.
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