mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 30, 2015 14:56:49 GMT -5
I, too, was a terrible mom. If there was a vaccination for it, my kids got the vaccination. They're both in their 50s and healthy as horses, so I guess they did pretty well in spite of me.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 30, 2015 15:10:38 GMT -5
Right, so if we add all these up we get a 0.0425% chance of seizure, etc. If we assume that the rate of complications for the chicken pox vaccine is the same as for the measles vaccine, then getting the vaccine is just under twice as likely to cause a seizure or severe allergic reaction as getting the disease is to cause encephalitis or death. The point is that these are all rare. If you want to scare people into vaccinating their kids, use polio or something. I think in that case the serious complications run into actual one- or two-digit percentages. More specifically, they're more than half as likely as your kid going into a seizure when he get shot up.
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Jan 30, 2015 15:11:53 GMT -5
If I had children, and felt vaccinations were the cause of autism, I'd rather risk autism than possible death from some disease that a vaccination could prevent. And I'm not a scientist nor a doctor but last I've heard other children can't "catch" autism from kids that have been diagnosed with it nor is it fatal. Since it has never been scientifically proven that it causes these health issues in children I don't understand why any parent would risk a serious disease that is known to cause death and/or disfigurement, etc., and is highly contagious to other children, by not having their own children vaccinated.
And this is why the government always has to get involved and set rules and procedures. Too many stupid people running loose in the world procreating.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 30, 2015 15:13:59 GMT -5
Chicken pox can lead to shingles later in life, which does cause neurological damage. My mom had shingles. She still has some impairment in the nerves in her left foot from it. Shingles is horribly painful Right, which is why I was taken to the hospital. But it turned out to be a mild case. My sole point was that hospitalization doesn't equal serious complications. Being taken to the hospital does not equal hospitalization. People come to the hospital for hangnails. They're never hospitalized for hangnails. My son, however, was hospitalized for chicken pox. He couldn't keep down food, or fluids, and was dehydrating. He had a very, very severe case of chicken pox. I was hospitalized with the mumps because I contracted meningitis along with them. Neither is all that unusual. They might not be the norm but they happen often enough to be recognized risks.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 30, 2015 15:59:28 GMT -5
Chicken pox can lead to shingles later in life, which does cause neurological damage. My mom had shingles. She still has some impairment in the nerves in her left foot from it. Shingles is horribly painful Right, which is why I was taken to the hospital. But it turned out to be a mild case. My sole point was that hospitalization doesn't equal serious complications. Being taken to the hospital is not a hospitalization, and would not be counted as one. Being admitted to the hospital (hospitalized) would indicate serious complications.
ETA: whoops - should have read to the end. I see a prior poster said the same thing.
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imawino
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Post by imawino on Jan 30, 2015 16:01:42 GMT -5
While it meets your personal definition of rare it's not rare when thousands of people a year get it. It's also a tragedy for those families. Thousands of people have serious reactions to vaccine injections every year, and I consider those rare too. What % of people have the serious complication of death attributable to receiving a vaccine?
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sam
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Post by sam on Jan 30, 2015 16:05:24 GMT -5
Take a look at what tetnus can do to an unvaccinated person. It's not good!
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 30, 2015 16:50:36 GMT -5
Right, so if we add all these up we get a 0.0425% chance of seizure, etc. If we assume that the rate of complications for the chicken pox vaccine is the same as for the measles vaccine, then getting the vaccine is just under twice as likely to cause a seizure or severe allergic reaction as getting the disease is to cause encephalitis or death. The point is that these are all rare. If you want to scare people into vaccinating their kids, use polio or something. I think in that case the serious complications run into actual one- or two-digit percentages. More specifically, they're more than half as likely as your kid going into a seizure when he get shot up. A febrile seizure is not really a big deal when compared to encephalitis or death. And except in the most severe cases, neither is an allergic reaction since it is easily treatable. I would take either of those over the complications of the disease.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2015 17:21:00 GMT -5
Take a look at what tetnus can do to an unvaccinated person. It's not good! How many of us get the Tetanus booster shot every ten years? Probably few of us. I got a booster shot about 6 years ago. But prior to that, I think the only shot I got Tetanus was the original back in the '50s when I was born.
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steff
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Post by steff on Jan 30, 2015 17:32:38 GMT -5
Right, which is why I was taken to the hospital. But it turned out to be a mild case. My sole point was that hospitalization doesn't equal serious complications. Being taken to the hospital does not equal hospitalization. People come to the hospital for hangnails. They're never hospitalized for hangnails. My son, however, was hospitalized for chicken pox. He couldn't keep down food, or fluids, and was dehydrating. He had a very, very severe case of chicken pox. I was hospitalized with the mumps because I contracted meningitis along with them. Neither is all that unusual. They might not be the norm but they happen often enough to be recognized risks. My youngest brother did 19 days in the hospital for chicken pox. He had sores on the bottom of his feet & an infection set into his ankle joint. He was in danger of losing his foot at one point. Well before the vaccine for chicken pox was out & he was 9 years old. The chicken pox vaccine came out when kiddo was a baby. I waited until he started school to get him vaccinated for it. I wanted to give them time to work out any kinks & bugs with the first rounds.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jan 30, 2015 17:34:27 GMT -5
Take a look at what tetnus can do to an unvaccinated person. It's not good! How many of us get the Tetanus booster shot every ten years? Probably few of us. I got a booster shot about 6 years ago. But prior to that, I think the only shot I got Tetanus was the original back in the '50s when I was born. I don't understand that at all. Tetanus is an absolutely horrible way to die. You go into such severe spasms, that it can actually break your back. And the Clostridium Tetani bacteria can be found everywhere, from dust to garden soil.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2015 17:41:17 GMT -5
How many of us get the Tetanus booster shot every ten years? Probably few of us. I got a booster shot about 6 years ago. But prior to that, I think the only shot I got Tetanus was the original back in the '50s when I was born. I don't understand that at all. Tetanus is an absolutely horrible way to die. You go into such severe spasms, that it can actually break your back. And the Clostridium Tetani bacteria can be found everywhere, from dust to garden soil.
Which is why it dawned on me to get a Tetanus booster shot because I was always gardening.
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sam
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Post by sam on Jan 30, 2015 17:55:47 GMT -5
Tennesseer, doesn't a booster mean you've been previously vaccinated? I'm talking about those that have not had the initial vaccination. When tetnus occurs, or lockjaw, it's too late for a booster. I've known of people being hospitalized and on ventalizers due to lockjaw.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 30, 2015 18:11:50 GMT -5
I've also heard the argument that these diseases we vaccinate against "aren't that bad" because they know so and so who go it and was just fine.
They don't stop to consider the reason so and so may have been "just fine" is they were lucky. Or the vaccination helped bolster their immunity enough that it kept them from getting a severe case. Or they benefited from the fact that other immunized people around them keeps the virus from going whole hog. As my grandmother said when you grew up watching people be deformed by measles/mumps/polio, when you watched your parents and neighbors bury their babies because of whooping cough, you don't sit around and debate whether or not the disease is "serious enough" to warrant a vaccination against it.
They're serious in statistically rare instances. That's the truth, for better or for worse. My sister got the mumps and the measles. I got the Chicken Pox. We were both routinely vaccinated for all of them.I realize "rare" is cold comfort for the x% of children that do have serious complications, but acting as though the complications aren't statistically unlikely, or that vaccination is highly effective (I think the actual figure is something like 60%) detracts from the impact of pro-vaccination arguments. At least, for somebody who cares about numbers. Chicken pox vaccine came out about 1995, it has been licensed in the US since 1995. I'm guessing you are a little older than 20, Virgil.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Jan 30, 2015 18:15:16 GMT -5
I've also heard the argument that these diseases we vaccinate against "aren't that bad" because they know so and so who go it and was just fine.
They don't stop to consider the reason so and so may have been "just fine" is they were lucky. Or the vaccination helped bolster their immunity enough that it kept them from getting a severe case. Or they benefited from the fact that other immunized people around them keeps the virus from going whole hog. As my grandmother said when you grew up watching people be deformed by measles/mumps/polio, when you watched your parents and neighbors bury their babies because of whooping cough, you don't sit around and debate whether or not the disease is "serious enough" to warrant a vaccination against it.
They're serious in statistically rare instances. That's the truth, for better or for worse. My sister got the mumps and the measles. I got the Chicken Pox. We were both routinely vaccinated for all of them. I realize "rare" is cold comfort for the x% of children that do have serious complications, but acting as though the complications aren't statistically unlikely, or that vaccination is highly effective (I think the actual figure is something like 60%) detracts from the impact of pro-vaccination arguments. At least, for somebody who cares about numbers. How old are you? The chicken pox vaccine wasn't approved in Canada until 1998. It started getting used in the US in 1995.
I'm thinking you weren't actually vaccinated against chicken pox.
ETA - The Walk of the Penguin Mich beat me to it.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 30, 2015 18:19:18 GMT -5
Tennesseer, doesn't a booster mean you've been previously vaccinated? I'm talking about those that have not had the initial vaccination. When tetnus occurs, or lockjaw, it's too late for a booster. I've known of people being hospitalized and on ventalizers due to lockjaw. Sam-Yes, booster does mean I have received the initial shot. You are right though, everyone should get the initial Tetanus shot. What I was bring up was we should get the booster shot every ten years and between the time I received the initial shot back in the late 1950s, I did not get my first booster shot until maybe 2006-7. So I had gone over 50 years without the Tetanus booster. Major mistake not to get the booster shot every ten years or so. As far as I know, without the initial shot or even a booster shot every ten years, we are susceptible to lockjaw and all the other ills that come with it. Otherwise, why would we need a booster shot! ETA: I am calling it a booster shot. It may not be called that. What you are supposed to get every ten years just may well be the same dosage as the first shot. If you are supposed to get a shot every ten years, that first shot only protected me until my late teens. It has been many, many years since my late teens that I went unprotected.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 30, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5
Complication rate from measles, from the CDC website www.cdc.gov/measles/about/complications.htmlSome people may suffer from severe complications, such as pneumonia (infection of the lungs) and encephalitis (swelling of the brain). They may need to be hospitalized and could die.As many as one out of every 20 children with measles gets pneumonia, the most common cause of death from measles in young children.About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or mentally retarded.For every 1,000 children who get measles, one or two will die from it.Measles may cause pregnant woman to give birth prematurely, or have a low-birth-weight baby.The Measles chapter of the Epidemiology and Prevention of Vaccine Preventable Diseases (Pink Book) describes measles complications in more depthOne thing to consider is that with all of the antibiotic resistant bugs out these days, a secondary bacterial infection (which are fairly common after viral disease) becomes even more difficult to handle. Another thing to consider......something that is (what you think) an extremely rare event with low risk isn't quite as minor when it happens to you.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 30, 2015 18:41:04 GMT -5
They're serious in statistically rare instances. That's the truth, for better or for worse. My sister got the mumps and the measles. I got the Chicken Pox. We were both routinely vaccinated for all of them.I realize "rare" is cold comfort for the x% of children that do have serious complications, but acting as though the complications aren't statistically unlikely, or that vaccination is highly effective (I think the actual figure is something like 60%) detracts from the impact of pro-vaccination arguments. At least, for somebody who cares about numbers. Chicken pox vaccine came out about 1995, it has been licensed in the US since 1995. I'm guessing you are a little older than 20, Virgil. I was told I was vaccinated for chicken pox. I got it when I was about 11-ish, hence 1994. Maybe I was part of an early trial group or something. At any rate, it the best week of the entire year. I got to stay home playing Nintendo the whole week. That's all I remember about it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 30, 2015 19:09:59 GMT -5
... Another thing to consider......something that is (what you think) an extremely rare event with low risk isn't quite as minor when it happens to you. Very true. That still doesn't mean it isn't an extremely rare event. I'm not arguing against vaccination here. I'm saying that if you want to convince an anti-vaccine parent who happens to be reading this board, honesty is the best policy. Don't feed them lies like "serious complications are common" with the hope that you'll spook them into doing the right thing, because on the off-chance you do plant a seed of curiosity in their mind, the first thing they'll do is look up the statistics and find out that serious complications are remarkably uncommon, which calls into question the accuracy of everything else you've said. In particular, it proves you're more interested in scaring them than you are in making accurate statements. In a similar vein, don't obfuscate the truth with "a 0.023% probability works out to 20,000 kids a year, hence it isn't rare" because anybody with a lick of sense won't buy that either. If you're going to take the purely rational argument route to convincing somebody, don't gum it up with alarmism. Your audience will either appreciate that a 0.023% probability of encephalitis or death is worth sticking their kids, or it isn't. Beyond that, stay calm and avoid coming across like a wild-eyed zealot whose faith has been spurned (see page 1 of this thread).
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 30, 2015 20:09:23 GMT -5
Where on the first page of this thread are you seeing this "wild-eyed" zealotry, Virgil Showlion? I just read through the first page and must have missed it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 20:37:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you can get shingles if you've been vaccinated for chicken pox .
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 30, 2015 20:39:13 GMT -5
Yes, you can. It isn't as likely as if you just plain old had them but it can still happen to you.
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 30, 2015 20:41:32 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you can get shingles if you've been vaccinated for chicken pox . I think I read somewhere it's a milder case. Oh BTW I've got shingles right now and this is my second lot since November. Get vaccinated for shingles please, cause you don't want it. I've also had drug resistant pneumonia and I'm still here. I got the flu shot this year, yeah the 20% effective one. I did get the flu, only for 5 to 7 days though. My sister and BIL didn't get the flu shot, they both got sick before Christmas and they are both still coughing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2015 20:42:20 GMT -5
Has measles mutated?
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jan 30, 2015 20:49:22 GMT -5
These boards are depressing: I have learned in the last couple of days that after 3+ decades I need to hand in my mom card. First I learned yesterday that I should have paid attention whether or not the various pediatricians asked if my kids could skip by age 4 (didn't happen). Then Zib said her pedi thought her DD was a genius because her DD did not draw stick figures as a young child when asked to draw her family --- I'm pretty sure none of the pedis (many moves = many pedis) ever asked my kids to draw anything. And now I am supposed to feel bad because if there was a vaccine for it, my kids got it. I don't think they were vaccinated for the chicken pox so maybe I can hold onto a third hand photo copy of my mom card after all Be that as may, I am going to join Drama and Beth in their fight withthis anti-vaccination maroon Dr. wassisname. Drama has scientific evidence, Beth the Paleo food, and I am going to bring on history and the decimation of the native American population after coming into contact with the Europeans for the first time. THAT'S what the lack of herd immunity will do for us if we are not waking up.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 30, 2015 20:49:28 GMT -5
Did they tell you when you got the shingles vaccine that basically you need to isolate yourself for 8-14 days? Because it's a live virus and you can infect someone with a compromised immune system. Which means my DH, my aunt who is being treated for cancer, and plenty of people that I might not even be aware that could have a compromised immune system. So basically I need to get it to protect myself and DH but where the hell can I go without infecting anyone else!?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 30, 2015 20:51:18 GMT -5
These boards are depressing: I have learned in the last couple of days that after 3+ decades I need to hand in my mom card. First I learned yesterday that I shouild have paid attention whether or not the various pediatricians asked if my kids could skip by age 4. Then Zib said her pedi thought her DD was a genius because her DD did not draw stick figures as a young child when asked to draw her family --- I'm pretty sure none of the pedis (many moves = many pedis) ever asked my kids to draw anything. And now I am supposed to feel bad because if there was a vaccine for it, my kids got it. -lightbulb-I don't think they were vaccinated for the chicken pox so maybe I can hold onto a third hand photo copy of my mom card after all Be that as may, I am going to join Drama and Beth in their fight withthis anti-vaccination maroon Dr. wassisname. Drama has scientific evidence, Beth the Paleo food, and I am going to bring on history and the decimation of the native American population after coming into contact with the Europeans for the first time. THAT'S what the lack of herd immunity will do for us if we are not waking up. Yes, but remember, neither of my brilliant children can skip so they're F'd for life!!
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jan 30, 2015 20:53:45 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you can get shingles if you've been vaccinated for chicken pox . No, you can't. If you have been vaccinated, the virus never has a chance to land in your nerve endings because you never had a case of it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 30, 2015 20:57:19 GMT -5
Where on the first page of this thread are you seeing this "wild-eyed" zealotry, Virgil Showlion? I just read through the first page and must have missed it. Poster A: *rrrrrr* This guy makes me so mad. Poster B: He's a quack! Quack! Quack! Quaaaaaaaaack! Poster C: I'm so mad I have the shakes! Poster D: Not going to get on my soapbox . .. not going to get on my soap box. .. not going to get on my soapbox. . . NooooooOOOOOOOOO! *shirt tears off* ME BASH! ME SMASH! RAGE ON SOAP BOX! EVIL DOCTOR MUST DIE! Poster E: I'm so ____ tired of people not vaccinating their kids! Me smash doctor too! Poster F: Give him to my Mom! She'll pound 'im good! Poster G: I want to punch him too! Leave a piece for me! Poster H: I'm so emotional about this, I can't see straight. Poster I: Give me his medical license on a platter! A thousand doubloons to the man that brings me his license! ... Honestly, I wouldn't put this paleo nutrition doctor in the same room as half the people in this thread. They'd tear his head off, pike it, and set it out as a warning to other anti-vaccine heretics.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jan 30, 2015 21:00:44 GMT -5
*chuckle* Ahh. So that's what wild-eyed zealotry looks like! Funny. I'd never pictured it quite that way. To each his/her own visions, I suppose.
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