is the phrase "Secular Religion" an oxymoron? yes or no?

[djAdvocate]

i say YES.  here is the definition of secular:

sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/
adjective
adjective: secular
1.
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
"secular buildings"

here is the definition of oxymoron:

ox·y·mo·ron
ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/
noun
noun: oxymoron; plural noun: oxymorons

a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).

what say you?

[bean29]

You are making my brain hurt.

[Tiny]

Yeah, it's an oxymoron, but I could see where a non-religious group like say a group of atheists/secular humanists MIGHT want to use that kind of a designation for their group/groups meetings  as a way to be included with the 'religious' kinds of organizations. 

I think it would be nice if the secular humanist group I belong would have an easier time integrating with religious groups when doing 'public' things - like charitable volunteer work.    Everyone assumes "religious" groups do  'charity/volunteer' stuff.  Well, so do non-believers.     When the religiuos people see our groups name on the 'list' of volunteers - there's a bit of questioning? suspicion? or 'what are you all doing here!' kind of reaction.    Mind you - we're volunteering at what is basically a 'secular' kinda of thing OR volunteering on some "interfaith" public helping kinda thing.     The interactions with the religious groups has ALWAYS been positive - since we have a similliar goal - do the volunteer work to help someone/make someone less fortunate's life better.  So, I know that the theists aren't always immediately "oooh no!  EVIL athiests!!! we must avoid them!!"  it's always been more of a  "OMG! you guys are athiests?  You look/talk/have moral values/are volunteering just like us!  How does that work?   I've never given it much thought! this is cool! we're having a good time and accomplishing something good! "
 
That said, If as an athiest I need to apply the oxymoron "secular religion" to my my lack of beliefs to FIT IN with the religious semantics that pervades our language and public life  to get around the "Evil Atheist" stigma   I could go along with that.  

[Angel!]

A quick search on google showed communism as a secular religion - first entry in Wikipedia on the topic.

It seems they define it as a widespread belief that has nothing to do with religion. It is basically taking the word religion & applying it to something broader than anything to do with a god - as an atheist I have been told I worship the religion of science.

Personally I don't like the phrase religion applied to anything other than true religion involving the worship or following of one or more deities.  So I think it is an oxymoron. 

[djAdvocate]

Jan 9, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5 Angel! said:

A quick search on google showed communism as a secular religion - first entry in Wikipedia on the topic.

It seems they define it as a widespread belief that has nothing to do with religion. It is basically taking the word religion & applying it to something broader than anything to do with a god - as an atheist I have been told I worship the religion of science.

Personally I don't like the phrase religion applied to anything other than true religion involving the worship or following of one or more deities.  So I think it is an oxymoron. 

do you agree that communism is a secular religion- or do you think that was intended as a CRITIQUE of communism?

for me, this is really simple.  secular means "not religious", and coupling that with religion is both hilarious and non-sensical.

[djAdvocate]

Jan 9, 2015 12:28:39 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Yeah, it's an oxymoron, but I could see where a non-religious group like say a group of atheists/secular humanists MIGHT want to use that kind of a designation for their group/groups meetings  as a way to be included with the 'religious' kinds of organizations. 

I think it would be nice if the secular humanist group I belong would have an easier time integrating with religious groups when doing 'public' things - like charitable volunteer work.    Everyone assumes "religious" groups do  'charity/volunteer' stuff.  Well, so do non-believers.     When the religiuos people see our groups name on the 'list' of volunteers - there's a bit of questioning? suspicion? or 'what are you all doing here!' kind of reaction.    Mind you - we're volunteering at what is basically a 'secular' kinda of thing OR volunteering on some "interfaith" public helping kinda thing.     The interactions with the religious groups has ALWAYS been positive - since we have a similliar goal - do the volunteer work to help someone/make someone less fortunate's life better.  So, I know that the theists aren't always immediately "oooh no!  EVIL athiests!!! we must avoid them!!"  it's always been more of a  "OMG! you guys are athiests?  You look/talk/have moral values/are volunteering just like us!  How does that work?   I've never given it much thought! this is cool! we're having a good time and accomplishing something good! "
 
That said, If as an athiest I need to apply the oxymoron "secular religion" to my my lack of beliefs to FIT IN with the religious semantics that pervades our language and public life  to get around the "Evil Atheist" stigma   I could go along with that.  

i think you nailed it, Tiny.  this is a way for religious folks to backstab the non-religious.  i don't think it has to make any sense, and it doesn't.  it is intended to be funny.

it is.

[Angel!]

Jan 9, 2015 17:02:23 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 9, 2015 12:41:04 GMT -5 Angel! said:

A quick search on google showed communism as a secular religion - first entry in Wikipedia on the topic.

It seems they define it as a widespread belief that has nothing to do with religion. It is basically taking the word religion & applying it to something broader than anything to do with a god - as an atheist I have been told I worship the religion of science.

Personally I don't like the phrase religion applied to anything other than true religion involving the worship or following of one or more deities.  So I think it is an oxymoron. 

do you agree that communism is a secular religion- or do you think that was intended as a CRITIQUE of communism?

for me, this is really simple.  secular means "not religious", and coupling that with religion is both hilarious and non-sensical.

I don't believe communism is a secular religion.  I think that phrase at it's core makes no sense.

[Virgil Showlion]

An appeal to public ignorance.

+10 for creativity, DJ. +100!

And it looks as though you got a few bites.

[billisonboard]

Jan 9, 2015 12:10:59 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

...

sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/
adjective
adjective: secular
1.
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
...

Like this?:

[djAdvocate]

LOL!  yes.  exactly. 

[djAdvocate]

Jan 9, 2015 17:23:23 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

An appeal to public ignorance.

+10 for creativity, DJ. +100!

And it looks as though you got a few bites.

no need.  i am totally confident i am right.  i just want to bask in it.

edit: for the record, i find this board WAY smarter than average. 

[mroped]

In English IS an oxymoron as per the definitions for each word. But is just as bad or harmful as saying " climb down!"
However er there is at least one language(?) in which " secular" translates as multi centuries, of many centuries so in a case like that I'd see it translating in "multi centuries religion" which would make sens

[djAdvocate]

Jan 9, 2015 23:15:42 GMT -5 mroped said:

In English IS an oxymoron as per the definitions for each word. But is just as bad or harmful as saying " climb down!"
However er there is at least one language(?) in which " secular" translates as multi centuries, of many centuries so in a case like that I'd see it translating in "multi centuries religion" which would make sens

i have never heard secular used in that way.  have you?

jumbo shrimp!

[ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ]

As far as oxymorons go.. :

Small Crowd
Growing Smaller
Deafening Silence
Awfully Pretty
Pretty Ugly
Least Favorite.
Clearly Confused
Original Copy

,

[NoNamePerson]

Jan 9, 2015 18:28:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Jan 9, 2015 12:10:59 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

...

sec·u·lar
ˈsekyələr/
adjective
adjective: secular
1.
denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.
...

Like this?:

I just call this Pray TV.

[mroped]

Jan 9, 2015 23:49:40 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 9, 2015 23:15:42 GMT -5 mroped said:

In English IS an oxymoron as per the definitions for each word. But is just as bad or harmful as saying " climb down!"
However er there is at least one language(?) in which " secular" translates as multi centuries, of many centuries so in a case like that I'd see it translating in "multi centuries religion" which would make sens

i have never heard secular used in that way.  have you?

jumbo shrimp!

Age old -secular- Romanian. But the translations that you find on line are limited

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 9, 2015 22:07:08 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jan 9, 2015 17:23:23 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

An appeal to public ignorance.

+10 for creativity, DJ. +100!

And it looks as though you got a few bites.

no need.  i am totally confident i am right.  i just want to bask in it.

edit: for the record, i find this board WAY smarter than average. 

"The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false."
   - Travis Walton


You get huge points for trying, DJ. I thought you might attack the dictionary or edit the Wiki article or something. Appealing to the hoi polloi was a stroke of brilliance. And a solid A+ for omitting all but one definition in the OP (otherwise people might actually have looked the terms up [ruh roh! ]).

Your stroking their egos... nnhhh... that needs a bit of work.

You could have put down "WAY, WAY smarter than average" to give it a bit of extra kick. Plus, your total confidence is offputting. Remember, you're supposed to be the humble sage appealing to the wisdom of the board, and I'm supposed to be jerk insisting that you're still wrong regardless of how many posters you can get to agree with you.

Still, these are altogether minor flaws. Your overall strategy is inspired. I could see it working for all kinds of things. We could prove that man-made climate change exists. Or we could prove that it's a fiction. We could probably prove that Kim Jong Un is a gremlin. On EE we could prove that chugging alcohol turns ordinary people into super-fun people. Really, the sky's the limit when you redefine correctness.

Stay frosty, my friend.    And again: brilliant attempt. If I could "Like" the OP ten times, I would.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 9, 2015 23:15:42 GMT -5 mroped said:

In English IS an oxymoron as per the definitions for each word. But is just as bad or harmful as saying " climb down!"
However er there is at least one language(?) in which " secular" translates as multi centuries, of many centuries so in a case like that I'd see it translating in "multi centuries religion" which would make sens

The broader definition, which DJ deliberately didn't include is "worldly, as opposed to spiritual". This is the sense that various scholars and philosophers have used the term (see citations on Wiki): a "worldly religion", having the anatomy and morphology of a spiritual religion, but with worldly analogs for some of the principal components. Marxian communism is given as one example.

I didn't invent the term. I'm simply acknowledging its existence. This thread is DJ's noble last-ditch attempt to save face in another debate we're having.

Your observation about the "multi-century" meaning of "secular" is spot on, however. The word has numerous definitions.

[weltschmerz]

Secular is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 11, 2015 16:24:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Secular is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

If invoked as the antonym of "religious", certainly.

It's broader meaning is the absence of spirituality. Spirituality isn't perfectly synonymous with religion, ergo there's an avenue for overlap, as described above. Think of an integral system of doctrines, institutions, rituals, traditions, government (leadership), fundamental beliefs (e.g. ethical and eschatological postulates, etc.) devoid of spirituality. It has the worldly character of secularism and the morphology of a religion. Ergo, "secular religion", which is precisely what scholars decided to call it.

If you can think of a better term with the same degree of specificity and some currency in the literature, I'm all for hearing it.

[weltschmerz]

Jan 11, 2015 22:15:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Jan 11, 2015 16:24:50 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Secular is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby.

If invoked as the antonym of "religious", certainly.

It's broader meaning is the absence of spirituality. Spirituality isn't perfectly synonymous with religion, ergo there's an avenue for overlap, as described above. Think of an integral system of doctrines, institutions, rituals, traditions, government (leadership), fundamental beliefs (e.g. ethical and eschatological postulates, etc.) devoid of spirituality. It has the worldly character of secularism and the morphology of a religion. Ergo, "secular religion", which is precisely what scholars decided to call it.

If you can think of a better term with the same degree of specificity and some currency in the literature, I'm all for hearing it.

Absence of spirituality? I see it more as an absence of superstition. Absence of the supernatural.

[Virgil Showlion]

Jan 11, 2015 22:25:26 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 11, 2015 22:15:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

If invoked as the antonym of "religious", certainly.

It's broader meaning is the absence of spirituality. Spirituality isn't perfectly synonymous with religion, ergo there's an avenue for overlap, as described above. Think of an integral system of doctrines, institutions, rituals, traditions, government (leadership), fundamental beliefs (e.g. ethical and eschatological postulates, etc.) devoid of spirituality. It has the worldly character of secularism and the morphology of a religion. Ergo, "secular religion", which is precisely what scholars decided to call it.

If you can think of a better term with the same degree of specificity and some currency in the literature, I'm all for hearing it.

Absence of spirituality? I see it more as an absence of superstition. Absence of the supernatural.

It's fine to use it in either sense as long as people are aware of your departure from the authoritative meaning. For example, I've tried to persuade DJ to embrace contextual definitions of "liberal", since the word virtually never refers to classical liberalism on our board.

Dictionaries are the authority when it comes to correctness, however, and neither superstition nor supernaturalism are referenced by any of the definitions in this case. That's understandable, given both terms already have perfectly good antonyms (e.g. skepticism, unbelief, etc.)

[wyouser]

Jan 9, 2015 23:57:48 GMT -5 ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ said:

As far as oxymorons go.. :

Small Crowd
Growing Smaller
Deafening Silence
Awfully Pretty
Pretty Ugly
Least Favorite.
Clearly Confused
Original Copy

,

From the golden plains of "everything Else" come tiding from the EE OX....It reads: "This Ox is not a moron!" He IS , on the other hand' a valued source of information amongst the "climate change crowd" in matters dealing with methane emissions!

[Opti]

I'm sad to see the dissing of Joel Osteen. Just because he has a mega-church?

Its kind of weird to me to believe he's secular given his preference for people to carry their

bibles to church and read from them during service.

Does this mean Billy Graham, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama should be considered

secular too, because they all have spoken in venues this size multiple times?

[weltschmerz]

Jan 12, 2015 14:29:35 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm sad to see the dissing of Joel Osteen. Just because he has a mega-church?

Its kind of weird to me to believe he's secular given his preference for people to carry their

bibles to church and read from them during service.

Does this mean Billy Graham, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama should be considered

secular too, because they all have spoken in venues this size multiple times?

[Opti]

Jan 12, 2015 14:37:06 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Jan 12, 2015 14:29:35 GMT -5 Opti said:

I'm sad to see the dissing of Joel Osteen. Just because he has a mega-church?

Its kind of weird to me to believe he's secular given his preference for people to carry their

bibles to church and read from them during service.

Does this mean Billy Graham, the Pope, and the Dalai Lama should be considered

secular too, because they all have spoken in venues this size multiple times?

Yes he's wealthy as are some other pastors. Does being wealthy mean he must absolutely

be taking advantage of people?

John Osteen encouraged Joel to preach for many years, but he declined, preferring to work behind the scenes until January 17, 1999, when he accepted his father's suggestion and he preached his first sermon. John Osteen died six days later of a heart attack. Two weeks later, Joel began preachi

ng regularly and, later that year, was installed as the new Senior Pastor of Lakewood Church on October 3, 1999.[10] Under Joel Osteen, Lakewood’s attendance grew from 5,000 to 43,000.[6]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Osteen

Based on his congregation size alone, if he was paid at the level the minister at my

church is being paid(factoring in congregation size), he'd make $24 Million a year. Not including the books.

(Yes she has a generous package.) I've read some of his books, listened to some of his services.

He is not a send me money and get healed kind of guy like old style bad televangelists.

[Opti]

Wonder why Billy Graham does not have a similar rep.

Billy Graham

William Franklin "Billy" Graham, Jr. is an American evangelical Christian evangelist, ordained as a Southern Baptist minister, who rose to celebrity status in 1949 reaching a core constituency of middle-class, moderately conservative Protestants. He held large indoor and …




en.wikipedia.org


Born: Nov 07, 1918 (age 96) · Charlotte, North Carolina
Net worth: $25 million USD (2015)

(From Binging Billy Graham)

Graham operates a variety of media and publishing outlets.[6] According to his staff, more than 3.2 million people have responded to the invitation at Billy Graham Crusades to "accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior". As of 2008, Graham's estimated lifetime audience, including radio and television broadcasts, topped 2.2 billion.[6]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Graham

ETA: Joel Osteen net worth is said to be $40 million by the same source

[lexxy703]

I find it to be an oxymoron.  They seem to be in direct opposition to each other.

[Chocolate Lover]

Jan 10, 2015 6:08:43 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

Jan 9, 2015 18:28:43 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Like this?:

I just call this Pray TV.

I had a friend that called monster churches like that Six Flags over Jesus.  I found it amusing, but I'm a heathen.

[Opti]

CL, I'm OK with that phrase. Personally I wouldn't want to attend a monster

church.