Why Schools Can't Teach Sex Ed

[The Captain]

time.com/why-schools-cant-teach-sex-ed/?xid=newsletter-brief

"In spring 2014, parents in the normally progressive Bay Area city of Fremont, California, started a campaign to get a book removed from the 9th grade curriculum for the five district high schools, arguing it was inappropriate for their 13 and 14-year olds. They hired a local lawyer and put together a petition with more than 2500 signatures.

Their target: Your Health Today, a sex-ed book published by McGraw Hill. It offers the traditional advice and awkward diagrams plus some considerably more modern tips: a how-to for asking partners if they’ve been tested for STDs, a debate on legalizing prostitution. And then there was this: “[One] kind of sex game is bondage and discipline, in which restriction of movement (e.g. using handcuffs or ropes) or sensory deprivation (using blindfolds or masks) is employed for sexual enjoyment. Most sex games are safe and harmless, but partners need to openly discuss and agree beforehand on what they are comfortable doing.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ok, based on some of the items quoted out of the book I do think it goes too far for a classroom setting.  BUT - I hope to high hell they don't teach sex ed for the first time to HS freshmen!!!   DD went to a private school until this year and sex ed was taught in 5th grade.  What the school couldn't teach I made sure I sat down and went over with her in detail.

She will also get a refresher but I sure as hell don't want her learning about S&M at school.

Thoughts?  Discuss...

[Deleted]

Do you want to teach her about S&M?

[Tennesseer]

Learn about it safely in the classroom or learn about it unsafely on the street.

Either way, they are going to learn about it, even in the 9th grade. 

[mmhmm]

I'd agree, Captain. Sex education should definitely start earlier than the freshman year and discussing some of the more "imaginative" aspects of sexual behavior are, to me, beyond the scope of a freshman student. I'm not sure I'd want those aspects taught in a classroom environment. It would depend greatly on how it was done. I'd have to see the curriculum and evaluate the teaching method to feel right about it for my child.

[Deleted]

With 50 Shades of Grey out there being touted as women's ultimate fantasies I think it needs to be addressed. The addition of asking about being tested for STD's is fantastic IMO. I don't think they are bringing up anything just to be facetious. These are things kids deal with these days.

[NancysSummerSip]

Nov 12, 2014 9:26:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'd agree, Captain. Sex education should definitely start earlier than the freshman year and discussing some of the more "imaginative" aspects of sexual behavior are, to me, beyond the scope of a freshman student. I'm not sure I'd want those aspects taught in a classroom environment. It would depend greatly on how it was done. I'd have to see the curriculum and evaluate the teaching method to feel right about it for my child.

I agree. By freshman year, their hormones are out there on the warpath, looking for hookup hormones. And back in my Stone Age day, we also started around fourth or fifth grade when it came to sex ed.

As for the "imaginative" stuff, I'm on the fence (and no, not in a kinky way; y'all get your minds outta the trash!) on this. I'd prefer they heard about this stuff from their parents, but many parents cannot or will not go there. Oh, they'll do the deeds, but they cannot bring themselves to admit it to their kids and tell them it can all be part of a healthy, loving and exciting relationship. So it should come from another neutral third party, and given that they spend a lot of time in school, it may have to be the classroom by default.

[mmhmm]

Nov 12, 2014 9:37:52 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

Nov 12, 2014 9:26:15 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

I'd agree, Captain. Sex education should definitely start earlier than the freshman year and discussing some of the more "imaginative" aspects of sexual behavior are, to me, beyond the scope of a freshman student. I'm not sure I'd want those aspects taught in a classroom environment. It would depend greatly on how it was done. I'd have to see the curriculum and evaluate the teaching method to feel right about it for my child.

I agree. By freshman year, their hormones are out there on the warpath, looking for hookup hormones. And back in my Stone Age day, we also started around fourth or fifth grade when it came to sex ed.

As for the "imaginative" stuff, I'm on the fence (and no, not in a kinky way; y'all get your minds outta the trash!) on this. I'd prefer they heard about this stuff from their parents, but many parents cannot or will not go there. Oh, they'll do the deeds, but they cannot bring themselves to admit it to their kids and tell them it can all be part of a healthy, loving and exciting relationship. So it should come from another neutral third party, and given that they spend a lot of time in school, it may have to be the classroom by default.

No question these things need to be approached, Nancy, as some parents simply won't. Thing is, I'd need to be sure how it was being approached. I'm not as concerned about the content as about the method.

[The Captain]

Nov 12, 2014 9:21:01 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

Do you want to teach her about S&M?

Nope!  That's part of the fun of figuring out some things for yourself.

I do teach her that you should never do anything with your partner that makes you uncomfortable (nor should you be with a partner that wants you to do things that make you uncomfortable). 

[NancysSummerSip]

Nov 12, 2014 9:40:48 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Nov 12, 2014 9:37:52 GMT -5 NancysSummerSip said:

I agree. By freshman year, their hormones are out there on the warpath, looking for hookup hormones. And back in my Stone Age day, we also started around fourth or fifth grade when it came to sex ed.

As for the "imaginative" stuff, I'm on the fence (and no, not in a kinky way; y'all get your minds outta the trash!) on this. I'd prefer they heard about this stuff from their parents, but many parents cannot or will not go there. Oh, they'll do the deeds, but they cannot bring themselves to admit it to their kids and tell them it can all be part of a healthy, loving and exciting relationship. So it should come from another neutral third party, and given that they spend a lot of time in school, it may have to be the classroom by default.

No question these things need to be approached, Nancy, as some parents simply won't. Thing is, I'd need to be sure how it was being approached. I'm not as concerned about the content as about the method.

Whatever the method, I think it's safe to say that Archie's suggestion of "hands on" would not be the one most likely to meet with parental approval.

[The Captain]

Nov 12, 2014 9:23:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Learn about it safely in the classroom or learn about it unsafely on the street.

Either way, they are going to learn about it, even in the 9th grade. 

On some things I agree.  Learning about S&M - I don't agree.  That same argument could be used to say schools should be teaching the safe and correct way to shoot heroin or coke.  Or maybe the proper way to cook meth?

Not everyone is into S&M.  Also, IMHO I think by discussing some things in a text book (such as teen drinking and drugs) as normal behavior that gives it a certain legitimacy that undermines values that parents may be trying to teach.  After all, if they teach it at school it has to be ok, right?

Absolutely we should be teaching about how the plumbing works, the hormonal/emotional drives, etc.  How to prevent pregnancy and about the possibility of STD's.  Beyond that is what I don't think is necessary in a class room setting.

[zibazinski]

Because of the program that DS was in in middle school, he wouldn't have received it until 8th grade. I love my son but he wasn't street smart AT ALL. I got him a book from the library after reading 3 of the recommended ones and deciding in the middle one. Let him read it and then asked him if he had any questions. He had a few but it was pretty clear. It didn't get into real kinky nasty stuff in extreme but did explain what it was so that he wouldn't be ignorant if confronted. The school was supposed to teach it in 5th grade but knowing his 5th grade teachers, I doubted it would be and I was correct. They wouldn't even teach the mandated holocaust curriculum.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Most sex games are safe and harmless, but partners need to openly discuss and agree beforehand on what they are comfortable doing

I actually agree with this part.  I can understand not wanting to go into the nitty gritty of various sexual subcultures but I do think it's important that a teenager understand there is more than just the missionary position out there and what consent involves.   You should also know what you may/may not be comfortable with before agreeing to sex with anyone.

With 50 Shades of Grey out there being touted as women's ultimate fantasies I think it needs to be addressed

50 Shades would be a good book to dissect in a Woman's Lit class.

[Tennesseer]

Nov 12, 2014 9:54:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Nov 12, 2014 9:23:20 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Learn about it safely in the classroom or learn about it unsafely on the street.

Either way, they are going to learn about it, even in the 9th grade. 

On some things I agree.  Learning about S&M - I don't agree.  That same argument could be used to say schools should be teaching the safe and correct way to shoot heroin or coke.  Or maybe the proper way to cook meth?

Not everyone is into S&M.  Also, IMHO I think by discussing some things in a text book (such as teen drinking and drugs) as normal behavior that gives it a certain legitimacy that undermines values that parents may be trying to teach.  After all, if they teach it at school it has to be ok, right?

Absolutely we should be teaching about how the plumbing works, the hormonal/emotional drives, etc.  How to prevent pregnancy and about the possibility of STD's.  Beyond that is what I don't think is necessary in a class room setting.

There is a bit of a difference. Heroin, coke and meth are illegal. S&M between consenting partners is not illegal.

I don't believe S&M should be discussed in great detail to 9th graders. But many 9th graders will hear that term sometime around that age and they might as well be provided an explanation to what it means.

I really would like to see what is written in the book about it.

[Deleted]

Nov 12, 2014 10:01:16 GMT -5 NomoreDramaQ1015 said:

With 50 Shades of Grey out there being touted as women's ultimate fantasies I think it needs to be addressed

50 Shades would be a good book to dissect in a Woman's Lit class. There's a lot wrong with that book when it comes to relationships and sex.

I completely agree. But I have now had 3 teen girls sneak a read and it lead to some interesting discussions in my house about sex, not literature.

They would not have had to sneak reading it, but they were embarrassed to tell me they read it and left it out for me to find instead. I haven't even read it myself.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2014 9:54:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

... After all, if they teach it at school it has to be ok, right?

...

Does that apply to something like, say, the Holocaust?

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I completely agree. But I have now had 3 teen girls sneak a read and it lead to some interesting discussions in my house about sex, not literature.

Yeah you can check it out at the library here. I can see Gwen or Abby checking it out and not knowing how to handle it.

Fortunately I am very open about sex and have no squeamishness about discussing things. A lot of parents don't though and I'd hate for a kid to get the idea from that book that that's how a relationship is supposed to work.

Like I said you don't need to go into graphic detail, but I do think teens should be aware that there is often more to sex than putting rod B into hole A. I don't want them consenting to something they don't understand or think "doesn't count" because it isn't "real sex".

[The Captain]

Nov 12, 2014 10:03:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Nov 12, 2014 9:54:22 GMT -5 The Captain said:

... After all, if they teach it at school it has to be ok, right?

...

Does that apply to something like, say, the Holocaust?

You're quoting me out of context but I'll respond anyway .

The Holocaust is history and should be taught.  We do not need to teach our children about certain human behaviors.  Where do we draw the line?  Some S&M is about dominance and humiliation - do we want the kids to think that is normal and ok?  I sure as hell don't want that introduced to my daughter in a classroom.  How about choking?  People will tell you that when done right it's perfectly safe - do we want that in the text books as well?

[Green Eyed Lady]

I'd be more concerned about the maturity level and capability of making informed decisions on the part of these very young people in regards to "informing" them about S & M.  Is a 13 year girl mature enough and knowledgable enough to know what she's "consenting" to?  Is a 14 year old boy mature enough and knowledgeable enough to know when to stop if things get out of hand?  No way in hell would I allow this with my child.  If they read some book and have questions, I'd try to answer them, but I sure don't want teaching methods being based on the current New York Times Bestseller.

Obviously, I don't believe 13 and 14 year olds are mature enough or knowledgeable enough to have any kind of sexual relationship at all, but I'm realistic enough to know some do.  Teach them how to prevent pregnancy and disease, but you don't have to direct them to the nearest handcuff and ballgag shop.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2014 10:13:05 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Nov 12, 2014 10:03:54 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Does that apply to something like, say, the Holocaust?

You're quoting me out of context but I'll respond anyway .

The Holocaust is history and should be taught.  We do not need to teach our children about certain human behaviors.  Where do we draw the line?  Some S&M is about dominance and humiliation - do we want the kids to think that is normal and ok?  I sure as hell don't want that introduced to my daughter in a classroom.  How about choking?  People will tell you that when done right it's perfectly safe - do we want that in the text books as well?

Hell yeah I want it taught that people will tell you choking is perfectly safe. Just like I want it taught that people will tell you the Holocaust didn't happen. School is a great place for myth debunking.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Yes I'd want my daughters to know that there are things people do in the bedroom that are "different" and if you're not comfortable with it then don't agree to it.

How much detail we get into is up for debate. I don't think we need to get into people who like to vacuum pack themselves or gimps (the things you learn watching Real Sex!) but there is a lot more to most sexual relationships than missionary sex. I'd like them to understand there is a spectrum.

I don't want a teen boy convincing my daughter to do something because it "doesn't count" since it can't get her pregnant or doesn't involve penetration.

Also I don't think it's an entirely bad thing to at least skim the topic in sex Ed because it gives my kids another safe place to talk.  They may not come to me or DH for various reasons but they might be willing to talk to their teacher.  I don't think having multiple outlets is a bad thing.

Some S&M is about dominance and humiliation - do we want the kids to think that is normal and ok?

If it's between two consenting adults in the privacy of their bedroom, why wouldn't it be okay? It may not be my cup of tea but if it's their normal then it's not my business.

[billisonboard]

Some S&M is about dominance and humiliation - do we want the kids to think that is normal and ok?

If it's between two consenting adults in the privacy of their bedroom, why wouldn't it be okay? It may not be my cup of tea but if it's their normal then it's not my business.

[/p][/quote]
Adults who are into "interesting" things were once kids who had these things bouncing around in their psyches. Helping them understand that, while not the norm, some things are not just a sign of a totally sick mind is a positive.

[Abby Normal]

Nov 12, 2014 9:59:57 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Because of the program that DS was in in middle school, he wouldn't have received it until 8th grade. I love my son but he wasn't street smart AT ALL. I got him a book from the library after reading 3 of the recommended ones and deciding in the middle one. Let him read it and then asked him if he had any questions. He had a few but it was pretty clear. It didn't get into real kinky nasty stuff in extreme but did explain what it was so that he wouldn't be ignorant if confronted. The school was supposed to teach it in 5th grade but knowing his 5th grade teachers, I doubted it would be and I was correct. They wouldn't even teach the mandated holocaust curriculum.

They taught sex ed in 5th grade here too. But turns out it was really only the biology side.  These are the parts- egg and sperm.  What they left out was how the sperm manages to get to where it can fertilize the egg.  A pretty big piece IMO. 

[tractor]

I think schools should just make them watch Monty Pythons "The meaning of Life" and have them write a paper about what they learned. That movie pretty much covers everything they need to know, in a fun, happy kind of way.

[billisonboard]

Working a little kink out early just might save one from becoming a knotted mess later.

[hoops902]

S&M isn't illegal.  Neither is dressing up like forest creatures to have sex.  Neither is having a gangbang or orgies.  I'm not sure kids need to learn about any of that in school. 

I'm not concerned about whether people think any of that stuff is normal or ok. I just don't think schools need to cover every sexual variant from fetishes to positions to anything else.  The goal should be to give students the tools they need in life.  Kids need to know the biology, they probably need to know some coping mechanisms and communication methods like asking about STDs.  None of them are going to miss out on an important life lesson if we don't teach them about ball-gags and the kama sutra.

::As for the "imaginative" stuff, I'm on the fence (and no, not in a kinky way; y'all get your minds outta the trash!) on this. I'd prefer they heard about this stuff from their parents, but many parents cannot or will not go there. Oh, they'll do the deeds, but they cannot bring themselves to admit it to their kids and tell them it can all be part of a healthy, loving and exciting relationship. So it should come from another neutral third party, and given that they spend a lot of time in school, it may have to be the classroom by default. ::

There are some things you just learn through life experiences or on your own.  I think "imaginative" stuff in the bedroom can easily be one of those.  Or are parents just going to teach you the things they enjoy?  I don't think most parents are experts on a WIDE variety of this stuff.  And certainly a book isn't going to adequately represent some of these things.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

And certainly a book isn't going to adequately represent some of these things.

That's where TLC comes in.

I learned about "pony play" thanks to Strange Addictions. I need to stay away from that channel.

Or are parents just going to teach you the things they enjoy

That would be one way to make sure your kids never have sex. 

[Tiny]

Considering BDSM has been the subjects of atleast 2 TV shows (I know the original CSI had a running story line, and last night's Forever (which I didn't watch) featured S&M). I'm sure there have been other TV shows that have hints of S&M in them.  I Haven't read 50 Shades of Gray - but I hear it has an S&M component (even the Twilight books seem to be a step by step set of lessons in controling someone else).

OH, Gotham a couple of weeks ago had a scene with Fish Moony on top of a guy who was "tied" to the headboard of the bed with black satin ribbons....

Back in the 80's/early 90's when there were bookstores that sold used paper backs there was a whole genre of pulp 'novels' dealing with S&M...

Ok, today's tweens and teenagers probably aren't reading old time pulp 'sex' novels... but I suspect they sometimes watch the TV shows their parents watch and they read pop culture books.

I think mentioning BDSM and how it might actually work (as opposed to the wierd TV murder related stuff) wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Maybe I just led a less sheltered life than today's kids (and I NEVER got 'the talk' from my parents- and the 'the talk' I received in 4th grade  from a Nun consisted of some babble about how I wasn't suppose to do the stuff that boys and men wanted me to do BUT I should ALWAYS respect and do as males said because that was what Jesus/God wanted females to do. Yeah, I may not have taken away what I was suppose to from that talk...). I was pretty aware of 'sex' and what boys and girls did together well before that 4th grade 'talk'...

By HS, some actual facts (that I didn't have to look up myself at the library) or tips on how to cope with real life situations would have been helpful. But then, maybe it's a case of who doesn't want to blunder thru that kinda stuff without a clue (ie how to say 'no' or how to cope with 'everyone else is doing it' lame examples but you get it.)?

maybe that's the 'right of passage' tweens/teens have to deal with - get thrown into the deep end and learn how to swim.

[Tiny]

She will also get a refresher but I sure as hell don't want her learning about S&M at school.

Odds are your kid has already seen alot of images/representations of BDSM - on TV, in Books, in Movies... (Pulp fiction comes to mind)

[weltschmerz]

I watched "Virgin Coaches" on TLC last night. Some of those virgins were in their 30s and knew absolutely nothing about sex. Nothing at all.

It was pretty sad.

So yeah, parents SHOULD teach their kids about sex, but many of them don't. They're too repressed themselves.

I'm OK with this stuff being taught in schools. It's all part of the sexual tapestry of human nature.

Beats being scared and confused when encountering it later in life.

[billisonboard]

Nov 12, 2014 12:57:16 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

... The goal should be to give students the tools they need in life. ...

The is in the details of that statement.

Every student will need to know how to add, subtract, multiple, and divide when they become an adult. Algebra? Certainly a lot will benefit. Advanced Calculus? I don't know it and have never needed it.

Knowledge of what areas of human sexuality is the minimum that students will need as they become adults?

A teacher comfortable with human sexuality can easily teach sexual variety in a neutral way. "Okay class. Let's start by talking about ice cream. Here is a list of favorite flavors: bassettsicecream.com/p-51-List-Flavors-in-Order-of-Popularity. Most popular is Vanilla and Chocolate. But if you look down the list, you will see many different varieties. Look down the list and find Macadamia Nut. And at the bottom of the list is Pomegranate Blueberry Chunk. Now, I will admit that neither of those flavors are ones that I am going to eat. But there is certainly nothing wrong with those who do find those flavors to be tasty. Human sexuality is kind of like ice cream in that way. Most people ..."