Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2014 4:49:24 GMT -5
I'm just going to bow out. All I'm seeing is hypotheticals that clearly fall into the "best to let go" category, and an army of critics who admittedly don't care about the definition of dignity. I'm not sure who exactly SL is debating. I've made my arguments. Best I mosey on before I get too repetitive. Up to a point, a lot. Up until the very end, it depends on the individual and the circumstances.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 6:19:57 GMT -5
Her story made our local paper today. It'll never get passed here because this is an extremely religious area. Even the surrogate who was a family member carrying for a family member had to spend thousands of dollars and jump through all kinds of hoops because of THIS county, alone. I'm amazed abortion clinics are allowed here but I'm sure they are harassed and picketed constantly. I've never understood why people think they have a right to mind other people's business. You don't want to die with dignity? Then don't. You don't believe in abortion? Don't have one. As long as I'm not paying for your choices and you aren't harming anyone but yourself, live your life on your terms.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 10, 2014 9:21:46 GMT -5
That's too bad. But to go back to your definition of dignity:
My major difference with you here is that you seem to want to decide what someone else's level of the bolded is valid. You may be stronger than others, or better able to handle things. I may be as well. Your internal beliefs may likely be the reason for that. But how is "a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect" not dependent on the individual at issue? How is accounting for the fact that individuals are different in what the can or want to deal with not caring about the definition of dignity? You've lost me there.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2014 12:51:20 GMT -5
That's too bad. But to go back to your definition of dignity:
My major difference with you here is that you seem to want to decide what someone else's level of the bolded is valid. You may be stronger than others, or better able to handle things. I may be as well. Your internal beliefs may likely be the reason for that. But how is "a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect" not dependent on the individual at issue? How is accounting for the fact that individuals are different in what the can or want to deal with not caring about the definition of dignity? You've lost me there. To answer your question (yes, ma, I know I just rested my case): - "self-respect" is only one component of the definition; "worthiness of being honoured or respected" is the principle definition, which goes well beyond self-respect
- You're the ones expounding the horrid travails of terminal illness, characterizing them as undignified. You're the ones defending a term, "death with dignity", that clearly implies an agonizing, messy, or protracted death is an indignity. Those are your pronouncements, not mine. The sum of my argument is that life is precious, a messy death isn't inherently undignified, and (quoting Reply #78) you should "be extremely sure life has nothing left to offer you and you have nothing left to offer others if and when you choose to end your life".
You need to pick a side and stick with it. Death without drugging yourself is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Suffering in the presence of one's family is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Holding on to say goodbye to your grandchildren despite blood and vomit and diapers is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Don't cry "oh, the indignity!" out of one side of your mouth, "indignity is in the mind of the patient" with the other, and expect me not to raise an eyebrow. You guys ought to be debating yourselves.
I get the impression that half the people here, upon being diagnosed with terminal cancer or Alzheimer's, would chug a bottle of pills as quickly as they could lay their hands on them.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 13:07:58 GMT -5
That's too bad. But to go back to your definition of dignity:
My major difference with you here is that you seem to want to decide what someone else's level of the bolded is valid. You may be stronger than others, or better able to handle things. I may be as well. Your internal beliefs may likely be the reason for that. But how is "a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect" not dependent on the individual at issue? How is accounting for the fact that individuals are different in what the can or want to deal with not caring about the definition of dignity? You've lost me there. To answer your question (yes, ma, I know I just rested my case): - "self-respect" is only one component of the definition; "worthiness of being honoured or respected" is the principle definition, which goes well beyond self-respect Worthiness to whom? What criteria are used in the measurement of "worthiness of being honoured or respected"? Whose criteria are they? Whose criteria should they be?
- You're the ones expounding the horrid travails of terminal illness, characterizing them as undignified. You're the ones defending a term, "death with dignity", that clearly implies an agonizing, messy, or protracted death is an indignity. Those are your pronouncements, not mine. The sum of my argument is that life is precious, a messy death isn't inherently undignified, and (quoting Reply #78) you should "be extremely sure life has nothing left to offer you and you have nothing left to offer others if and when you choose to end your life". I can't speak for others, but use my mother's characterization, and that of patients in similar circumstances for whom I've cared over the years. To many of them, agonizing, messy, protracted deaths ARE undignified. Life is certainly precious; however, when you're unfortunate enough to reach the point where life becomes little more than existence - and that in utter misery and desolation, many will tell you that's not life to them. I know my mother feels that way. She's told me. Sometimes, she tells me daily. She's given me more than anyone should have a right to expect from another. Now, all I want is her happiness and that her wishes be foremost.
You need to pick a side and stick with it. Death without drugging yourself is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Suffering in the presence of one's family is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Holding on to say goodbye to your grandchildren despite blood and vomit and diapers is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Don't cry "oh, the indignity!" out of one side of your mouth, "indignity is in the mind of the patient" with the other, and expect me not to raise an eyebrow. You guys ought to be debating yourselves. I don't live in a black and white world. YMMV. When an individual has already said "goodbye" to loved ones and wishes only to leave behind the memory of a smiling, loving person rather than a moaning shell of what he/she once was, I see nothing to debate. I'm left aghast at the notion that person's life is subject to anyone's determinations of what is undignified other than that person's own. I've lived it, and I am living it.
I get the impression that half the people here, upon being diagnosed with terminal cancer or Alzheimer's, would chug a bottle of pills as quickly as they could lay their hands on them. As I said, the world is not painted in solely black and white. I'm fully in favor of an individual having the right to make their end of life decision for themselves. I would not immediately gobble pills upon a diagnosis of terminal illness and I find your suggestion that the posters here would do so to be quite insulting - and more than a little arrogant. You don't know what others might do under those circumstances and it isn't your shot to call.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 13:21:47 GMT -5
That's too bad. But to go back to your definition of dignity:
My major difference with you here is that you seem to want to decide what someone else's level of the bolded is valid. You may be stronger than others, or better able to handle things. I may be as well. Your internal beliefs may likely be the reason for that. But how is "a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect" not dependent on the individual at issue? How is accounting for the fact that individuals are different in what the can or want to deal with not caring about the definition of dignity? You've lost me there. To answer your question (yes, ma, I know I just rested my case): - "self-respect" is only one component of the definition; "worthiness of being honoured or respected" is the principle definition, which goes well beyond self-respect
- You're the ones expounding the horrid travails of terminal illness, characterizing them as undignified. You're the ones defending a term, "death with dignity", that clearly implies an agonizing, messy, or protracted death is an indignity. Those are your pronouncements, not mine. The sum of my argument is that life is precious, a messy death isn't inherently undignified, and (quoting Reply #78) you should "be extremely sure life has nothing left to offer you and you have nothing left to offer others if and when you choose to end your life".
You need to pick a side and stick with it. Death without drugging yourself is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Suffering in the presence of one's family is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Holding on to say goodbye to your grandchildren despite blood and vomit and diapers is either inherently undignified or it isn't. Don't cry "oh, the indignity!" out of one side of your mouth, "indignity is in the mind of the patient" with the other, and expect me not to raise an eyebrow. You guys ought to be debating yourselves.
I get the impression that half the people here, upon being diagnosed with terminal cancer or Alzheimer's, would chug a bottle of pills as quickly as they could lay their hands on them.
You would be right, at least about me. I'm not only not subjecting MYSELF to that fate, I'm not subjecting my loved ones to dealing with it. I wiped their asses, they aren't wiping mine.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 10, 2014 14:25:39 GMT -5
You can say goodbye and make your peace with everyone before "chugging a bottle of pills' as you so crudely put it. And it can be just as meaningful as it happening as you watch yourself fade away for days/months/years in front of your loved ones.
If I kept my dogs in the condition my grandfather was in during his final month I would be charged with animal abuse. Yet it's perfectly acceptable to let our human loved ones linger like that?
And for a grown man who was a freaking marine having your grown son having to come to your house to pick you up off the floor, bathe you, change your diapers IS horribly humiliating and undignified. He should get the choice as to whether or not he wants to live like that. He shouldn't if he doesn't desire have to live knowing he's become a burden to his loved ones.
I am not going to off myself as fast as I can if I got terminal cancer, but I should have the option of being able to decide for MYSELF when enough is enough. Unfortunately by the time family takes notice you've already gone past the point where you can make that choice.
I'd love to think that DH would know when to say enough is enough and let me go. But he's already made it very clear that he'll anything and everything to keep my body alive no matter what condition I am in because there is "always a chance". I disagree and don't think he should subject our kids to that. I should have the option when I am able to step in and say "enough" myself.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 10, 2014 14:45:07 GMT -5
should anyone here choose that, then it's THEIR damn choice. Not yours.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 15:12:35 GMT -5
should anyone here choose that, then it's THEIR damn choice. Not yours. And, if that's the choice they make I'll honor it, and them. I'm not the one who's faced with the choice. I have no right to make it for anyone other than myself; nor, do I have a right to judge another's choice.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 15:34:06 GMT -5
If anyone makes that choice here, please say goodbye. The part I HATED about 5 days was that her Internet friends were left dangling and wondering what happened to her.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 10, 2014 15:47:21 GMT -5
My mother had Alzheimer's Disease. And yes, when in her infrequent lucid moments before she finally 'disappeared', she wanted out. She saw too many of her family and friends disappear into empty, breathing shells, all of them with the joie de vivre of a soap dish.
My mother 'died' a few years before her body finally quit her. There was nothing to learn from her disease and death other than hoping I never develop AD. And if it should happen to me, I hope I have the presence of mind to find a not too messy way to end my life. But if I must, I might become pro-gun if I develop AD.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2014 18:15:42 GMT -5
It's also remarkably accurate, if you'd bother to read what people had said for the past four pages.
To the litany of "people should be able to choose" criticisms, please read my posts. I'm sick of explaining what I have and haven't said.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 18:23:04 GMT -5
It's also remarkably accurate, if you'd bother to read what people had said for the past four pages. To the litany of "people should be able to choose" criticisms, please read my posts. I'm sick of explaining what I have and haven't said. No, Virgil, it isn't "remarkably accurate". You usually think you're "remarkably accurate". I often disagree. I've certainly "bothered to read" what others have said. Again, you feel free to insult the intelligence of others. I've also "bothered" to pay attention to what they're saying and not decide I know exactly what they mean up to and including assigning the manner of death they'd choose if they were making that choice. I have read your posts, as well. So have others. Doesn't it strike you as interesting that more of the posters are closer to my point of view than to yours? Perhaps you're not making your point clear. It seems most of us are reading it the same way. I don't much care what you're sick of. If you don't wish to explain, don't explain.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 18:34:56 GMT -5
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 18:36:48 GMT -5
Well, because I think I'm right and my way is the only civilized, spiritual, and death with dignity way, I feel everyone should die via chocolate. Even if they hate chocolate.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 18:40:15 GMT -5
Well, because I think I'm right and my way is the only civilized, spiritual, and death with dignity way, I feel everyone should die via chocolate. Even if they hate chocolate. Mother loves chocolate. Now that she's primarily able only to take thickened liquids, I'm really glad there's such a thing as chocolate syrup!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2014 18:40:23 GMT -5
It's also remarkably accurate, if you'd bother to read what people had said for the past four pages. To the litany of "people should be able to choose" criticisms, please read my posts. I'm sick of explaining what I have and haven't said. How sick?? Most of you are debating some phantom straw man who opposes "Death with Dignity" because it's an irresistible opportunity to tell the world how much you hate opposition to "Death with Dignity". The consensus doesn't surprise me in the least. Tall is a notable exception. My proper respects to him for debating me and not a phantom.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 10, 2014 18:54:21 GMT -5
It doesn't sound worth it to even eat one.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 18:56:31 GMT -5
Most of you are debating some phantom straw man who opposes "Death with Dignity" because it's an irresistible opportunity to tell the world how much you hate opposition to "Death with Dignity". The consensus doesn't surprise me in the least. Tall is a notable exception. My proper respects to him for debating me and not a phantom. That's your opinion, Virgil. Not once have I said you oppose "Death with Dignity". The consensus might surprise you more if you actually understood it.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 10, 2014 19:37:35 GMT -5
Thank you. I appreciate that. And I meant it when I said it would be too bad if you bowed out. I usually enjoy the discussion. I certainly disagree with you often, mostly I think because you seem to live in a world which is very black and white, while mine has many, many shades of grey. You are certainly principled, and have a basis for your arguments (even when they're wrong.)
If I could trade on those respects for a moment, I would appreciate it as a personal favor if you would please use either tallguy or TG. Tall by itself is a word, not a name. I always have to think, "Oh, they mean me." Thanks.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 11, 2014 7:50:16 GMT -5
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