wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Oct 9, 2014 8:09:17 GMT -5
I know some people's grievance isn't the suicide but the imposition on family. Among other things, suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." If one's condition deteriorates to the point of constant suffering, barring faith in a recovery, there comes a point when "let's just get it over with" is decidedly the best option for all involved. People who avail themselves of the option should be very careful not to invoke it too quickly. A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. As for "death with dignity", there is nothing particularly dignified about suicide, and nothing particularly undignified about suffering to the end for sake of faith or family. It's death without protracted suffering; neither a noble nor ignoble act. Call a spade a spade. have you ever seen someone waste away from cancer and seen how painful the last few days often are? I wouldn't wish that on anyone. It's a horrible way to go. My grandpa and five of his siblings died that way along with a couple of their spouses and other friends. There isn't enough pain medication in the world to control that kind of pain especially when it spreads to the bones. This young woman made a very hard decision. I admire her for doing so. I don't know one thinks you gain by dying like she surely would.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2014 8:25:17 GMT -5
For some, I would think this is difficult to discuss here and not on the religious board. Maybe a parallel thread would be appropriate?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 9, 2014 8:40:41 GMT -5
I know some people's grievance isn't the suicide but the imposition on family. Among other things, suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." If one's condition deteriorates to the point of constant suffering, barring faith in a recovery, there comes a point when "let's just get it over with" is decidedly the best option for all involved. People who avail themselves of the option should be very careful not to invoke it too quickly. A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. As for "death with dignity", there is nothing particularly dignified about suicide, and nothing particularly undignified about suffering to the end for sake of faith or family. It's death without protracted suffering; neither a noble nor ignoble act. Call a spade a spade. have you ever seen someone waste away from cancer and seen how painful the last few days often are? I have. And no matter what anyone says, the excruciating pain can't be fully controlled. The pain is etched on their face, in their eyes and in the writhings of their body. You see someone you love more than your life suffering so horribly that it kills a little bit of you. You can SEE in their eyes that they are ready for it to be over. You see someone who has loved you and taken care of you your whole life in agony. Watch that for a few months and then tell me we should just allow things to run their natural course. You will NEVER get over it. You will see it in your dreams. You will feel guilty for the rest of your life that you didn't do something to make it stop for them.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2014 8:57:48 GMT -5
I know some people's grievance isn't the suicide but the imposition on family. Among other things, suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." If one's condition deteriorates to the point of constant suffering, barring faith in a recovery, there comes a point when "let's just get it over with" is decidedly the best option for all involved. People who avail themselves of the option should be very careful not to invoke it too quickly. A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. As for "death with dignity", there is nothing particularly dignified about suicide, and nothing particularly undignified about suffering to the end for sake of faith or family. It's death without protracted suffering; neither a noble nor ignoble act. Call a spade a spade. have you ever seen someone waste away from cancer and seen how painful the last few days often are? I've seen someone waste away from cancer. I've never been present for the last few days. Do you take issue with anything I've said?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2014 9:14:54 GMT -5
... suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." ... Choosing your time of death is more making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than you might want me to, but I am leaving right when I need to." You're subverting the definition of "need". "I'm leaving you sooner than is absolutely physically necessary.", if you're going to split hairs.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2014 9:19:23 GMT -5
I'd be curious if you have ever witnessed someone "suffering to the end" for whatever reason. You may reconsider at that point. And what IS ignoble is for family to allow their own selfish interests to override the desires of the patient. If someone is suffering enough to cause them to make that choice, those around them should respect it.
I get that you have a problem with the idea of suicide. Do you really not differentiate between this situation and others to the point that you insist on using the same term (and thus the same connotation) for both? Most suicides are irrational choices. These are decidedly not.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 9, 2014 9:24:24 GMT -5
This young woman and most people with terminal illnesses don't want to die. They wish there was a cure but there isn't. Not yet or not in time for them. Not wanting to waste away in pain and agony and suffering and watch the grief of their loved ones is important to some people. DFs father was 62 with two children still in high school. He wanted to live and walk his daughter down the aisle. He wanted to see his grandchildren. He never got to. What he did get to do was open up his morphine drip when he was ready to go.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 9, 2014 9:31:29 GMT -5
have you ever seen someone waste away from cancer and seen how painful the last few days often are? I've seen someone waste away from cancer. I've never been present for the last few days. Do you take issue with anything I've said? Yes. Dying from cancer can be very painful. I'm not seeing how suffering is "spiritual." Sometimes the body hangs on longer than it should.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Oct 9, 2014 9:33:55 GMT -5
I've seen someone waste away from cancer. I've never been present for the last few days. Do you take issue with anything I've said? I'm not seeing how suffering is "spiritual." Aren't you Catholic? Home of the hair shirt and self-flaggelation?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 9, 2014 9:34:56 GMT -5
I'm not seeing how suffering is "spiritual." Aren't you Catholic? Home of the hair shirt and self-flaggelation? Nominally and recovering Catholic.
Agnostic who feels guilty about it.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Oct 9, 2014 9:38:40 GMT -5
Choosing your time of death is more making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than you might want me to, but I am leaving right when I need to." You're subverting the definition of "need". "I'm leaving you sooner than is absolutely physically necessary.", if you're going to split hairs. I'm thinking it's more of "I'm leaving you sooner than we all would like because I would like to still be ME at my passing."
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Oct 9, 2014 9:58:30 GMT -5
Obviously, I can't speak for every case, but in the case I cited, there was no spiritual profit. I, who have a deep and abiding faith, was railing at God with every ounce of my being for not ending this. I can't imagine this man who did not share my faith was seeing a profit either. I could be wrong, obviously. Nobody knows what is happening with someone else, but if he was profitting in any way - spiritually or socially - I surely didn't observe it. All I observed was needless suffering.
As for it not being "undignified" to suffer? This larger-than-life man was having to have his diapers changed when every single movement caused him excruciating pain which he could not hide from those he loved. There is nothing dignified about needless suffering. It's wrong and if he had the option, I know he would have taken it and I would have helped him, if necessary.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 9, 2014 11:51:07 GMT -5
A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. It probably can be. It could also be unspeakable agony. I felt that both my grandparents laying in pain for days & slowly dying of dehydration as my mom watched pretty undignified. It wasn't what they wanted & it sure as hell wasn't what my mom wanted. There is nothing pleasant about watching someone die a slow death & the doctors keeping them on such high levels of pain meds in order to basically sedate them. It took my Grandma over a week to die. She was going to die, she could not eat or drink & did not want to be on fluids or force-fed through tubes. Death was inevitable & my mom had to sit by her bedside & watch her die like that. It was horrible. So yes, I think death can be very undignified. I think the option to choose how & when should be offered to everyone terminally ill.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2014 12:40:17 GMT -5
A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. It probably can be. It could also be unspeakable agony. I felt that both my grandparents laying in pain for days & slowly dying of dehydration as my mom watched pretty undignified. It wasn't what they wanted & it sure as hell wasn't what my mom wanted. There is nothing pleasant about watching someone die a slow death & the doctors keeping them on such high levels of pain meds in order to basically sedate them. It took my Grandma over a week to die. She was going to die, she could not eat or drink & did not want to be on fluids or force-fed through tubes. Death was inevitable & my mom had to sit by her bedside & watch her die like that. It was horrible. So yes, I think death can be very undignified. I think the option to choose how & when should be offered to everyone terminally ill. So you'd claim your grandmother didn't die with dignity as a result of dying over the period of a week rather than in a matter of minutes? This is what I don't get. As for the numerous other replies to my post, they seem to be in one sense criticisms and in another sense validations of what I've said. For example, I've plainly conceded there comes a time when letting go is best for a hopeless and suffering individual. You agree that such a decision shouldn't be made lightly and that an individual's last days (which does not only refer to the last few days or weeks of life) can be spiritually profitable. I respectfully disagree with tall that the term "suicide" doesn't apply, but that's quibbling over definitions. And beyond that, I haven't made any moral pronouncements whatsoever. Just an admonition to those here to be extremely sure life has nothing left to offer you and you have nothing left to offer others if and when you choose to end your life.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 9, 2014 13:37:30 GMT -5
@dayjawho - I agree this is an intensely personal decision. I have not seen anyone passing judgement or condemning another for what choices they may make. Some have said they don't understand and agree with some choices, and for those people that is the right decision for them.
I'm pretty sure DH would bankrupt himself and ruin his own health trying to take care of me longer then he should if something ever happened to me. I am determined to do everything I can to never let that happen, even if it means going before DH would consider my time.
He would say he didn't agree with my decision, and from his worldview he is right. I would say I'm comfortable with my decision and from my worldview I would be right.
I think we're both in agreement that his worldview should not over-ride mine when it comes to decisions about my end of life (and vice versa).
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 9, 2014 13:41:31 GMT -5
My grandfather was marine in the Korean war, reduced to having to have my grandmother/father change his diapers and clip his nails.
It was humiliating for him. It was also traumatic for my dad, nobody wants to see their parent reduced to that.
He hung on for two months like this. Barely able to move and he couldn't really communicate with anyone.
Yeah that sounds like a really spiritual and uplifting time in his life.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 9, 2014 14:06:12 GMT -5
It probably can be. It could also be unspeakable agony. I felt that both my grandparents laying in pain for days & slowly dying of dehydration as my mom watched pretty undignified. It wasn't what they wanted & it sure as hell wasn't what my mom wanted. There is nothing pleasant about watching someone die a slow death & the doctors keeping them on such high levels of pain meds in order to basically sedate them. It took my Grandma over a week to die. She was going to die, she could not eat or drink & did not want to be on fluids or force-fed through tubes. Death was inevitable & my mom had to sit by her bedside & watch her die like that. It was horrible. So yes, I think death can be very undignified. I think the option to choose how & when should be offered to everyone terminally ill. So you'd claim your grandmother didn't die with dignity as a result of dying over the period of a week rather than in a matter of minutes? This is what I don't get. There is nothing dignified in being a shell of your former self. Unable to communicate, unable to do anything. Having to wear a diaper. Shriveling up over days and you die a slow horrible death. What do you believe was dignified or gained by those last few days? I'm going with nothing. It only caused great pain to everyone involved.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 9, 2014 14:20:16 GMT -5
I'm betting that if Virgil had a pet which had cancer, or kidney failure, or was hit by a car and severely injured & in excruciating pain, he'd choose to have it humanely euthanized rather than allowing it to linger and suffer in agony.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Oct 9, 2014 14:55:34 GMT -5
The week before my sister passed, she was screaming in pain, everything just hurt so badly. That's when the permanent IV morphine pump came in.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2014 15:01:15 GMT -5
Choosing your time of death is more making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than you might want me to, but I am leaving right when I need to." You're subverting the definition of "need". "I'm leaving you sooner than is absolutely physically necessary.", if you're going to split hairs. You're devaluing what it means to be human by reducing need to simply physical.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 9, 2014 15:37:54 GMT -5
I want to go like my maternal grandfather did. He had a heart attack and died instantly. I don't want my children to have to witness what all of us had to go thru with my paternal grandfather.
Both deaths were traumatic in their own way, but there is something especially awful about watching a loved one waste away. It's really hard to wrap your brain around that when you see the person totally differently. My maternal grandfather I remember him as he was.
It'll be awhile before I can get my grandfather's final months out of my head and go back to remembering him as he was before.
I can't imagine my grandfather wanted to be a burden to my grandmother and father. When he could still talk he actually expressed concern that my grandmother might leave him because of it all (not that she ever would). I can't see how living to know you're a PITA to your spouse and child is somehow dignified and more "spiritual" than being able to go out on your own terms.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2014 16:06:16 GMT -5
I want to go like my maternal grandfather did. He had a heart attack and died instantly. ... My grandparents was taking a bus instead of flying to a family gathering because the bus route went through the small valley in central Idaho in which Grandfather had been born 83 years prior. The was a rest stop about 50 miles after the valley. Grandmother went in for coffee. She came back out and Grandfather was dead. Well played Grandfather, well played.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2014 21:31:11 GMT -5
Who's talking about making somebody do something? The only people who will ever read my post are the people in this thread, and it's well beyond my capacity to make you do anything. I'm saying there are many factors besides your personal sense of dignity that should weigh into your decision to end your life prematurely. I'm also saying there's nothing inherently undignified about prolonging your life for sake of faith and family. This is about you reading this, not your deceased family or friends, or anyone else who will never read this.
No, I'm invoking the literal definition of the word "need". And considering you've condoned infanticide in the past, I'll pass on your advice on "what it means to be human".
Euthanizing a pet is my decision to make. It can't euthanize itself.
If and when the people reading this thread face the choice to end their lives in response to a terminal illness, I would hope that some of the caveats raised in this thread would at least factor into that decision.
I didn't say "would be spiritually profitable", I said "can be spiritually profitable". I didn't say "last few days", I said "last days". Some of these patients have months or even years left to live. And I didn't say "hold on always at all costs", I said "there comes a point when 'let's just get it over with' is decidedly the best option for all involved".
Finally, I didn't say that holding on was dignified, I said it isn't inherently undignified--at least not how I count dignity. Calling drugging oneself to death "death with dignity" very much implies that doing so is more dignified than the alternative, and I strongly disagree.
I'm not insisting you call it that. I'm saying that's plainly what it is, and calling it "exiting" or "death with dignity" or whatever euphemism suits your fancy doesn't change that fact. For what it's worth, I do acknowledge there are meaningful factors that distinguish it from general suicide.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2014 21:44:09 GMT -5
... No, I'm invoking the literal definition of the word "need". And considering you've condoned infanticide in the past, I'll pass on your advice on "what it means to be human". ... Not sure where you find that to be the literal definition. And we certainly will never agree on what it means to be human.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 9, 2014 21:51:39 GMT -5
But what about those "last days" including agonizing pain, being drugged up on morphine, and wasting away to 40 or so lb for days, weeks or months upon months on end with no hope of recovery, except lingering in excruciating pain and slow death with no hope of recovery? That was the fate of my SIL - as she lay in her bed at the Cancer Center here. My brother and their two (small at the time) children as well as the rest of family agonized at watching a wife, mother, sister, aunt, and kindest person in the world linger in the most horrific condition - because she wasn't allowed to exit on her terms and end the suffering - not just for herself, but everyone who loved her.
She fought the good fight - and even wrote two books (both published) about her struggle and being a mom with a deadly disease (before being permanently hospitalized - where she then became dependent on heavy drugs to control the pain and could barely consume more than water.
I think a person who might be in the same position as her should have the choice to say their goodbye's while they're still able and not be kept lying in a morphine hazed stupor until their light stops shining and they're gone. She had to linger as a shell for months - it was agonizing for the entire family - not just herself. Her husband, children and extended family suffered along with her.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2014 22:03:38 GMT -5
With regard to the first bolded statement, at least in Washington, the patient has to be certified by two doctors to have less than six months to live in order to get the prescription. As for the second, I think you are missing the point. It may be so that neither holding on nor letting go are inherently dignified or not. What "Death with Dignity" does is allow the patient to avoid much of the extremely undignified result of being forced to hang on too long. Several posters have recounted the pain, suffering, and embarrassment of many in that situation. It is perfectly correct to use the term in that sense. Call it, "Death while I still have at least some remnant of my dignity remaining" if you wish. Seems a little long for me, so the shorthand will suffice. It is not saying that the choice itself is one or the other.
And we are saying that, while that may be so, your 'other factors' do not and should not outweigh the desire of the patient. You say above that euthanizing a pet is your decision to make. I would suggest that you have much less right to make that decision than does the terminal patient. They are at least choosing to end their own life, not that of another being.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 10, 2014 0:29:26 GMT -5
With regard to the first bolded statement, at least in Washington, the patient has to be certified by two doctors to have less than six months to live in order to get the prescription. As for the second, I think you are missing the point. It may be so that neither holding on nor letting go are inherently dignified or not. What "Death with Dignity" does is allow the patient to avoid much of the extremely undignified result of being forced to hang on too long. Several posters have recounted the pain, suffering, and embarrassment of many in that situation. It is perfectly correct to use the term in that sense. Call it, "Death while I still have at least some remnant of my dignity remaining" if you wish. Seems a little long for me, so the shorthand will suffice. It is not saying that the choice itself is one or the other.
And we are saying that, while that may be so, your 'other factors' do not and should not outweigh the desire of the patient. You say above that euthanizing a pet is your decision to make. I would suggest that you have much less right to make that decision than does the terminal patient. They are at least choosing to end their own life, not that of another being. "The terminal patient" is you. "They" is you. My words are written to you. When it comes time for you, tallguy, and you, reader, to decide whether to kill yourself when facing a terminal illness, this is when I'd hope the simple admonitions in this thread would at least cross your mind. Regarding the first paragraph, you're missing the point that pain, suffering, and disability isn't inherently undignified, especially if it's being done for selfless reasons. I'll agree with you that it can be terrifying, humbling, and nigh insufferable, but it's no less dignified than drugging yourself to death. dignity (n.) the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect
Finally, since people seem to be wantonly ignoring the fact, I repeat in bold that I do not oppose the "Death with Dignity" law nor do I condemn those who avail themselves of it. I consider it a misnomer--for the reasons I've already stated--and I worry that people would be compelled to use it too readily and too early and in so doing throw away some very precious things. But I have twice conceded that letting go does become the best option when quality of life has profoundly deteriorated. That's as close to kissing your ring and jumping on the bandwagon as I'm going to get.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 10, 2014 0:52:33 GMT -5
I am not missing that point. I am arguing a different one. One that you apparently do not consider worthy of acknowledgement.
Crying out in near-constant pain, because you no longer have the strength and courage to overcome it, IS undignified to have to face. Being forced to have other people care for you and clean you up because you can no longer do so yourself, IS undignified and embarrassing. Having to watch the faces of your loved ones trying to hide their emotions, and knowing that you are the cause of their sorrows, IS horrible.
How does your dictionary definition of dignity cover those emotions? How much self-respect can the patient have left, knowing how much they have lost from the person they were before? Knowing how much pain their families are suffering on their account? I can agree with you that it is not the pain or suffering per se that is undignified. It is its effect on the individual which makes it so.
For the record, I have noted your contention that it can be the best option at some point. Both times. And that is exactly the point of Death With Dignity laws. That if the time comes when it becomes the best option, that the option should be available. It is truly a pity that only three states to date have enough respect for their citizens to allow it.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 10, 2014 1:04:16 GMT -5
And I'd say lying in a bed, curled into an embryonic position, puling piteously with pain because you've screamed until you can't scream anymore is a lot less dignified than drugging yourself to death by your own choice. I'd also say, without hesitation, it's up to each individual to decide what comprises his/her dignity. It's not up to anyone else.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 10, 2014 1:10:04 GMT -5
Am I missing something, or are you saying it's better to allow a terminally ill patient to suffer in agony until the end instead of having a choice to leave in dignity and on their own terms?
(I'm not talking cowardly suicide - where a person OD's or puts a gun to their head because they can't deal with some minor hiccup in their life) - I'm speaking of someone who's wasting away from a deadly and incurable disease that's eaten away at them until they're down to not much more than a shell - and all they have to get them through to the next day, is a heavy dose of narcotics - and they have no choice but to linger in that agony because the law or government has decided it's so.
There's zero chance of their recovery, but because of Gov't bureaucracy, they're not allowed the dignified exit from this world that so many of these patients desire.
My SIL had faith - she also believed that benevolent faith would grant her entrance into heaven if she left this world on her own terms to end her suffering. It was the powers who rule us here on Earth that prevented her from leaving on her own terms and when she was ready to bid her final farewell.
Instead, she was forced to linger drugged up and in agony. Is that fair, I ask?
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