Pants
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Post by Pants on Oct 8, 2014 9:22:16 GMT -5
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myrrh
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Post by myrrh on Oct 8, 2014 10:39:59 GMT -5
Ugh. I'm really hoping some more reasonable laws are passed soon. My extended family dealt with my grandmother's Alzheimers for 10 years. (I didn't deal with it much since I live 1500 miles away.) I DO NOT want to do that to my family. I told DH that and he agrees.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Oct 8, 2014 10:41:45 GMT -5
This is from the article bsbound posted. Wow. Off topic, but this is why there is a push for AEDs (defibrillators) to be available everywhere and people trained to use them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 8, 2014 10:55:48 GMT -5
Towards my grandfather's final days with brain cancer he ended up in the ER with what turned out to be a perforated bowel.
The freaking ER doctor wanted to rush my grandfather into surgery and remove part of his colon! My dad flipped his lid.
Thank God the on-call surgeon had common sense. He said no way in hell would he consent to put my grandfather thru that type of surgery. The odds of even surviving were low in his condition. He said let the man have some dignity in his final days.
Took awhile for my dad and surgeon to get my grandma to agree to hospice. In the mean time the damn hospital kept my grandfather in a stage of semi-prep for surgery because that is hospital policy. They wouldn't let him have any water besides a wet wash rag. My dad couldn't stand it b/c my grandfather was becoming rather dehydrated and gave my grandfather water when they left.
Grandma freaked and my dad said what are they going to do about it? It's BS hospital policy and the surgeon already said there is no way surgery is going to happen. Let the man have a damn drink.
I want to go out fast like my maternal grandfather. Boom heart attack and done. I do not want to linger in a hospital where stupid policies control my fate.
I also worry about going first because DH is someone who believes in doing EVERYTHING because I "owe it to my family" to make every single effort to extend my life. I've always disagreed with him and after watching my grandfather pass from cancer I am even more against it. It was horribly traumatic for my father, myself and my brother to watch all this. I don't want to put my kids thru it because DH refuses to let go.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Oct 8, 2014 11:09:38 GMT -5
I warned DH that he needs to make a living will if he wants every intervention ever invented. I told him I am NOT putting the children or myself thru that just because he can't accept death. I said if he leaves it up to me at a certain point there will be no intervention and I will pull the plug.
He "doesn't want to talk about it", which I think mainly stems from he knows what I am going to put in mine.
He was beyond pissed when he found out his parents have DNRs. I said it is their decision they do not "owe" it to you to be vegetables for years because you can't handle the idea of death. They have every right to make those decisions and die with dignity.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 8, 2014 11:30:12 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards.
One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death.
Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead?
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siralynn
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Post by siralynn on Oct 8, 2014 11:50:56 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead? I wouldn't necessarily assume that the last option (choosing not to take the medication) is unlikely. Given that it's impossible to predict exactly how an illness is going to progress (in terms of day-to-day management of symptoms and lucidity), I could totally understand that many people might get the prescription and have it available in case things get to a point where they don't want to manage anymore. But maybe the actual progression of their disease left them with pain that was manageable with morphine and conventional hospice care, and ultimately they chose not to take the prescription.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 8, 2014 11:53:48 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead? Or there could be other options. The person had a painful condition and wanted to make sure they had options should the pain become too much for them to bear. The condition could have killed them before they got to that point. This scenario is not uncommon with certain types of cancer. My grandfather died from prostate cancer that metastasized and spread everywhere including his spine. Toward the end he was in so much pain he was physically crying for relief. We were told the hospital was limited on how much morphine they could give him in a 24 hour period. I can't speak for him, but were I in his place I'd like to have options. OTOH DH's grandmother was diagnosed with brain cancer, but passed very quickly even before we could get hospice set up.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 8, 2014 12:28:10 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead? I seriously doubt the medication was taken and did not work. Far more likely they died prior to choosing to take the medication or opted not to take it. Also, many probably had family memebers that convinced them not to do so...the people that won't let go & refuse to give up hope when there is none. I could see getting a prescription if I was unsure how a disease might progress & how much pain I would be in. Then deciding at a later time whether or not to take it. Taking into account my pain & how my family feels about it.
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Oct 8, 2014 12:32:07 GMT -5
This is from the article bsbound posted. Wow. I know - horrifying right?!?!?!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 8, 2014 12:40:28 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead? There's another possibility. Some of the patients may have died before the prescriptions could be used - while waiting for family, while having final discussions with friends and loved ones - whatever. They may have passed without the medications. There may also have been family battles that postponed the use of the medications. The reasons aren't delineated.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 8, 2014 12:42:58 GMT -5
This is from the article bsbound posted. Wow. I had no idea. I have had 2 uncles saved with CPR. I guess they were extremely lucky. One had a full recovery, just the other day he finished the bike race that caused his heart attack 2 years earlier. The other had to retire because his mind just wasn't all there anymore, but he was pretty close to retirement anyway. It took him years to recover, it tooks him month to consistently recognize everyone.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 8, 2014 13:07:24 GMT -5
These are my plans if I get something that is most likely fatal. Knowing that my cousin, mom and step brother went through all the hell of surgery, chemo and radiation only to die any way tells me that 1. It doesn't work (for us) and 2. I should live my last days feeling fine instead of being constantly sick, bald and scary looking. I'd want to enjoy my last days and look as normal as possible. If the pain is unbearable and I can't get meds to control it I would have no problem going to my garage and peacefully going away forever. Yes, I know to tape the door to the house and open windows inside just in case. I've already thought it through after seeing my mom unrecognizable and my step brother looking like a shriveled old man at 54 while on their death beds. Half my cousin's face and neck was removed due to mouth and throat cancer only to die at 50. No thank you. I do have my medical directives in place and threatened to haunt DH if he didn't abide by them. I'm a control freak like that and prefer to do things on my own terms.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Oct 8, 2014 13:18:44 GMT -5
This is a fantastic article. Thanks for sharing it!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 8, 2014 14:12:04 GMT -5
OK. I sense the consensus is that the medications do work reliably. Which makes one wonder why they can't seem to properly execute a man on death row for love nor money.
I also thought that "exit bags" were the preferred means of mess-free suicide, which you can purchase over the Internet.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Oct 8, 2014 14:33:45 GMT -5
OK. I sense the consensus is that the medications do work reliably. Which makes one wonder why they can't seem to properly execute a man on death row for love nor money. Because European manufactures of the drugs that work well will not allow them to be used for execution in this country.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Oct 8, 2014 14:34:18 GMT -5
If able, I plan on seeing Dr. Beretta.
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Bluerobin
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Post by Bluerobin on Oct 8, 2014 14:35:25 GMT -5
OK. I sense the consensus is that the medications do work reliably. Which makes one wonder why they can't seem to properly execute a man on death row for love nor money. Because European manufactures of the drugs that work well will not allow them to be used for execution in this country. Can't we just OD them on Heroin?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Oct 8, 2014 14:53:33 GMT -5
OK. I sense the consensus is that the medications do work reliably. Which makes one wonder why they can't seem to properly execute a man on death row for love nor money. Because European manufactures of the drugs that work well will not allow them to be used for execution in this country.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Oct 8, 2014 19:46:54 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead? I read an article that talked about the different reasons people didn't use the medication. Most were that they wanted the medicine in case it got too painful, but when it was in their hands they felt comforted that they COULD do, but they didn't think today was the day. Just because you are dying doesn't necessarily mean you will be in severe pain. And I can imagine a bunch of those people just chicken out. There was also a group of people who found swallowing difficult, so it turned out they waited so long that they couldn't get the medicine down. Another medical reason was some people were afraid that they would throw it up, and then have partial deadly drugs running through their system. I know they do have stats on how many of the 421 did die. I have yet to hear anyone (for or against it) say that any level of abuse or misuse of the process has happened in Oregon. When the law was first proposed it was the whole freak out "death panel" thing - but that isnt what happened.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 8, 2014 21:43:50 GMT -5
I don't condone it, and I wouldn't avail myself of it, but it seems like a reasonable thing to allow, subject to the appropriate safeguards. One concern is the article's figure that 1,173 prescriptions were written, and 752 prescriptions were ultimately used. I would expect the vast majority of patients who go as far as getting a prescription would get it filled and use the medication, which raises the question of why the remaining 421 (36%) prescriptions didn't result in death. Either the patients weren't terminally ill, the medication didn't work as intended, or the patients changed their minds at some point after obtaining the prescription. This last option doesn't seem at all likely given the difficulties and soul searching needed just to obtain the prescription, and the other two possibilities bode ill indeed. How many of the 421 wound up only half-dead?
Here is a link to see some statistics for Washington. You can access not only the text of the law and its requirements but the annual reports for each year it has been in effect. Those reports detail the statistics for number of prescriptions issued and used, as well as other deaths. link
Personally, I am glad that my state passed a Death With Dignity law by voter initiative and I absolutely voted for it. I believe in individual liberties and the freedom and right to live one's own life pretty much any way you wish, subject to not infringing on anyone else's right to do the same. And I cannot imagine anything being more fundamental to that right than the freedom to decide when and how to end that life.
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Jaguar
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Post by Jaguar on Oct 8, 2014 23:38:25 GMT -5
You all know I lost my sister this past July to two types of cancer, stage 4 kidney cancer that was in her brain and lungs and aggressive bone cancer. My sister had her wishes granted to die at home.
The doctors gave her a morphine pump to help her along so she wouldn't be in pain.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 9, 2014 0:14:17 GMT -5
I've always been a strong believer of death with dignity (see my prev. posts about my SIL).
I have a disability that may (or may not) render me completely dependent on relatives or health-care providers in the future to care for or keep me alive.
I'd like the right decide to leave this world with dignity, and on MY own terms should it come to that - not those of family - or doctors - or Government - to decide what is best for me.. If and when that time might come.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2014 0:20:44 GMT -5
Washington. Oregon. Vermont.
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ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Oct 9, 2014 0:23:10 GMT -5
I'm in Canada - I'd have to make specific arrangements which might not be that easy.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2014 6:23:52 GMT -5
I've always been a strong believer of death with dignity (see my prev. posts about my SIL).
I have a disability that may (or may not) render me completely dependent on relatives or health-care providers in the future to care for or keep me alive.
I'd like the right decide to leave this world with dignity, and on MY own terms should it come to that - not those of family - or doctors - or Government - to decide what is best for me.. If and when that time might come.
I know some people's grievance isn't the suicide but the imposition on family. Among other things, suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." If one's condition deteriorates to the point of constant suffering, barring faith in a recovery, there comes a point when "let's just get it over with" is decidedly the best option for all involved. People who avail themselves of the option should be very careful not to invoke it too quickly. A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. As for "death with dignity", there is nothing particularly dignified about suicide, and nothing particularly undignified about suffering to the end for sake of faith or family. It's death without protracted suffering; neither a noble nor ignoble act. Call a spade a spade.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 9, 2014 7:09:52 GMT -5
That's your opinion and you are welcome to it. Most people choose not to be a burden on anyone, including themselves.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Oct 9, 2014 7:10:30 GMT -5
You shouldn't have to move to another state and jump through their residency and other hoops to get what you want.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 9, 2014 7:57:49 GMT -5
I've always been a strong believer of death with dignity (see my prev. posts about my SIL).
I have a disability that may (or may not) render me completely dependent on relatives or health-care providers in the future to care for or keep me alive.
I'd like the right decide to leave this world with dignity, and on MY own terms should it come to that - not those of family - or doctors - or Government - to decide what is best for me.. If and when that time might come.
I know some people's grievance isn't the suicide but the imposition on family. Among other things, suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." If one's condition deteriorates to the point of constant suffering, barring faith in a recovery, there comes a point when "let's just get it over with" is decidedly the best option for all involved. People who avail themselves of the option should be very careful not to invoke it too quickly. A man's last days can be the most socially and spiritually profitable days of his life. As for "death with dignity", there is nothing particularly dignified about suicide, and nothing particularly undignified about suffering to the end for sake of faith or family. It's death without protracted suffering; neither a noble nor ignoble act. Call a spade a spade. have you ever seen someone waste away from cancer and seen how painful the last few days often are?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 9, 2014 7:59:01 GMT -5
... suicide can't avoid making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than I need to." ... Choosing your time of death is more making the statement "I'm leaving you sooner than you might want me to, but I am leaving right when I need to."
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