My friend another train wreck...

[The Captain]

Sept 19, 2014 11:08:56 GMT -5 greeniis10 said:

How old are the 2 youngest kids?  If the youngest just graduated high school do either one of them have jobs?  With just one vehicle I'm guessing no, but don't want to assume.  What are their plans after high school?  College?  Or will they be with their parents for a while?

Not sure how your area is for walkability, but is it possible to direct them to an area of town (an apartment complex) that is close to businesses or public transportation?

And, FWIW, I agree with GG & Rao about being honest about your feelings towards her husband, but at the same time, I don't know if I'd tell her you'd take her in if only he wasn't with her.  Deep down she probably knows she should've left him and that would only make her feel even worse about her current situation.  Sorry both she and you are dealing with this.

The younger kids are basically 20 and 18 (both just a little shy of bdays).  Neither have jobs because the job situation down there is crappy and overall unemployment is over 9% and teen unemployment is even higher.  The oldest (24) has a tech support job at a local hospital.  Two major manufacturers have pulled out (you'd recognize the names) or done major RIF's in the past 7 years so there are lots of adults and older folks still looking for work.  The oldest is currently taking classes at the local CC in criminal photography.  We have an outstanding CC system in my area so it would be a good move for the kids.

The area to which we just moved in kinda mixed for walkability.  We are within walking distance from a train line that stops in many suburbs with good employment prospects.  We actually have a lot of "short ride" (not going downtown) commuters on this line.  There are no local busses though. Plus, to be honest, there is no way they could afford to rent in my area.

As far as letting her know my feelings about her DH...I don't think I will go there unless the topic comes up.  It really won't accomplish anything.

 

[Abby Normal]

I don't think I would even say "I may need the room for my relative".  I think that opens the door of "can I live there until that happens".  If she's not outright asking, then you don't need to offer.  Bottom line is she'll be way better off if she solves her own problem.  I would stick with " I'm so sorry you are going through this.  What are your plans?  You might look into xxx."

But don't say " What can I do to help".

[swamp]

Sept 19, 2014 11:22:49 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

You know, her husband could get a McJob temporarily, while she collects unemployment and looks for a better job for herself.  You can tell her she can crash at your place if she's got interviews in your town (if the distance between your homes is feasible for that).

I thinks that DH's refusal to get a McJob is part of the reason they're in the mess they're in.

[happyhoix]

Why don't you offer to let her (and her alone) come for a few long weekends so she can job hunt?

You're assuming she is hinting that she wants to permanently move in. Maybe she's only looking for a free place to stay locally while she does some interviews.

If she asks to bring the whole brood, tell her you can't handle everyone one staying, but would LOVE to host her. She can leave DH back home babysitting the kids - that may be all he's good for.

She may at some point come out and ask if she can move everyone in permanently, and that's when you can pull out the relative who might be coming to stay, so you can't take on any long term houseguests.

I feel sorry for the woman. Possibly her DH has MH issues (or maybe he's just an ass) but either way, she's got a hard lot.

[Bob Ross]

Wow, you're an awesome friend if you will let these people move in with you.

Can I move in with you too (and eat your food, and not pay rent, and soil your towels, and impregnate your pets and oh no I've said too much...)

I'll be your BEST friend!

[Deleted]

You said they have used up all the favours with her family. Think about what that really means. She has been in this situation before, someone helped her out, and here she is again. She needs to find another strategy, either this time, or the next time when you aren't willing to help anymore. Because as long as going to family and friends works, that is going to be her strategy.

[NoNamePerson]

Sept 19, 2014 11:32:50 GMT -5 Bob Ross said:

Wow, you're an awesome friend if you will let these people move in with you.

Can I move in with you too (and eat your food, and not pay rent, and soil your towels, and impregnate your pets and oh no I've said too much...)

I'll be your BEST friend!

But Bob you will have to bring your own recliner - see recliner thread 

[Lizard Queen]

Sept 19, 2014 11:29:15 GMT -5 swamp said:

Sept 19, 2014 11:22:49 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

You know, her husband could get a McJob temporarily, while she collects unemployment and looks for a better job for herself.  You can tell her she can crash at your place if she's got interviews in your town (if the distance between your homes is feasible for that).

I thinks that DH's refusal to get a McJob is part of the reason they're in the mess they're in.

I guess I was hoping that he'd step up at least temporarily now that their backs are against the wall.

Captain, I would ask your friend why her husband isn't doing this. Maybe it will convince her to ditch this loser, if nothing else.

[greeniis10]

Sept 19, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You said they have used up all the favours with her family. Think about what that really means. She has been in this situation before, someone helped her out, and here she is again. She needs to find another strategy, either this time, or the next time when you aren't willing to help anymore. Because as long as going to family and friends works, that is going to be her strategy.

I agree, however, I think now that they are willing to move she may be able to actually improve her situation this time.  Unfortunately, it takes money and jobs to relocate successfully.  But it is at least progress.  It's better than her insisting that they couldn't possibly leave their home and still be asking for help in a very stagnant situation.

But relocating 4 adults when one isn't willing to work full-time is a daunting task.

[Deleted]

Nothing fundamental is changing. The husband is still not going to get a job. And THAT is the biggest problem. She managed to have a job in that depressed area.

[greeniis10]

True.  I guess I'm hoping she will find a better job and that both the kids will have better opportunities.  Sadly the DH is a lost cause unless he wants to help himself. 

[NoNamePerson]

I'm just cynical enough to think that they have run thru the list of people who usually bail them out now have moved to the OP (Captain). If told no, they will move on down the line till someone says yes. I had to learn this lesson the hard way with friend always "needing" help. She always just found someone else. Turned into a way of life.   I felt bad at first but I got over it.

[Phoenix84]

Yeah, that's a good point about the two kids. Not only might you have to deal with a deadbeat husband, but two deadbeat kids fresh out of high school with no plans or jobs either. They might have jobs, but from your post it didn't sound like it.

I know it's easy to say "cut them off" when you aren't emotionally involved in the situation, but I think TheCaptain is smart enough to know that letting the whole family move in isn't a good idea. I agree with others that if you really want to help, try to help in other ways.

[zibazinski]

I don't know of any LL who will rent to someone with no job. I'd stop taking the calls until you can figure out a way to say NO. I most assuredly would not offer anything, period. I feel for you but they have brought this on themselves and it looks like the kids are like the dad. Living off mom. I'd only take her if anything but that will never work because she's a package deal.

[Lizard Queen]

It seems like writing off her DH as a lost cause just lets him off the hook.  The spotlight should be on him now.  It is his turn to perform or to be cut loose.

[zibazinski]

Yup, any conversations you have with her should be along the lines of what are the kids and her husband doing about bringing in income? Not what you or anyone else can do for them.

[TheHaitian]

I think the best option you were given were:

@ have her and her only as a guest so she can job hunt or go to a few interviews.

Or

@ put down the security deposit and maybe first month rent for them on a new apartment.

But I would not let them move in with you!

[zibazinski]

IF you can find a LL dumb enough to take on people with no jobs, when the rent is due, where do you think she will go to for money? Stay out of this.

[The Captain]

I don't know if I'd call the kids deadbeats.  My friend has always set a good example for them in terms of work ethic.  The oldest got their associates in IT (or something like it) and does tech support at a local hospital.

The middle one is in community college for criminal photography (like a CSI photographer).  Honestly don't know how the job prospects are in that field. 

As far at the middle and youngest not having jobs, when you have 30 and 40yo's competing for the mcjobs (because of all the layoffs) then I can see where teens would have a difficult time getting jobs.  I know they've walked the beans and detassled corn, but that's only available for a few months during the summer.  BTW for those who are not in the know - those are hard, sweaty, unpleasant jobs.

This is an area where 25-30 years ago you could drop out of HS and still get a decent job with one of the local manufacturers and live a comfortable life and support a family mostly on one income (very LCOLA).  Things didn't start to turn until the late 1990's.  Now that those jobs have dried up there are a lot of adults without transferrable skill sets scrambling to find anything.

I think for now I'll wait and see if she brings the topic up again.

[zibazinski]

That was almost 15 years ago. People still stayed there? For what? I get wanting kids to complete HS. Ask any military kid how well that works? I think what others have said is right. She has burned her bridges and now is looking for more.

[happyhoix]

Sept 19, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You said they have used up all the favours with her family. Think about what that really means. She has been in this situation before, someone helped her out, and here she is again. She needs to find another strategy, either this time, or the next time when you aren't willing to help anymore. Because as long as going to family and friends works, that is going to be her strategy.

Well, think about who you would normally ask for help - your parents or your siblings. This woman's mom committed suicide when she was young, and her dad died when she was in school. Her step mom cut her off financially. If she had siblings, they no doubt experienced the same difficult start in life - none of the may have ever been in a position to help her out.

So assuming that she burned all her bridges with her relatives may not be accurate - she might not even have relatives she could ask for help. 

I think she probably never had much of a support system to begin with. Although I agree her DH's family probably wouldn't help if they could, because of his refusal to suck it up and get a job like the rest of us - no doubt they are all standing around waiting for him to get off his ass.
 

[Peace Of Mind]

Since she hasn't actually asked I'd just listen to her problems, make suggestions (none of which would include moving in with you) and be her friend and not her savior. 

The most I'd do is give her the money that I wouldn't have a problem not getting back.  If she pays it back that would be great but if you value your friendship with her and want to keep it don't give her any more than you are willing to not expect back or the friendship could be ruined. 

IF she does ask to move in with you - as others have already said - don't do it.  You don't have to give reasons other than something vague like "This is not a good time for us to be able to do that for you.  I'm sorry."

Good luck!

[cronewitch]

I would give nothing but advice and only if asked. I suggest apartment management to people who need a home. Managers live on site for usually free rent and sometimes money. He can apply for handyman jobs and perhaps get an apartment. Four of them in a one bedroom apartment would be better than 4 in your house. Let them struggle so perhaps they will learn about having something for emergencies. They can also learn to take a bus to work if cars aren't affordable to them. I wouldn't give a 50 year old any money.

[Formerly SK]

I could see letting my friend stay with me a couple weeks to job hunt, but not everyone else.  That way you're assisting, but it's minimal enough of an inconvenience for you and it's really an inconvenience for them.  Unless your friend and her DH want to live apart, they will quickly find a way to solve their problems. 

[Deleted]

Sept 19, 2014 13:25:00 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Sept 19, 2014 11:40:29 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

You said they have used up all the favours with her family. Think about what that really means. She has been in this situation before, someone helped her out, and here she is again. She needs to find another strategy, either this time, or the next time when you aren't willing to help anymore. Because as long as going to family and friends works, that is going to be her strategy.

Well, think about who you would normally ask for help - your parents or your siblings. This woman's mom committed suicide when she was young, and her dad died when she was in school. Her step mom cut her off financially. If she had siblings, they no doubt experienced the same difficult start in life - none of the may have ever been in a position to help her out.

So assuming that she burned all her bridges with her relatives may not be accurate - she might not even have relatives she could ask for help. 

I think she probably never had much of a support system to begin with. Although I agree her DH's family probably wouldn't help if they could, because of his refusal to suck it up and get a job like the rest of us - no doubt they are all standing around waiting for him to get off his ass.
 

You read more into my statement than what I said. Good support system or bad, she has been helped out of this or similar situations before (according to what The Captain said) and hasn't developed a better strategy for dealing with things. With their financial situation they didn't have the luxury of "letting the kids finish school with their friends". But since they did decide to do that, they can cope with the repercussions rather than foisting them onto The Captain's family.

[Nazgul Girl]

Sept 19, 2014 10:18:59 GMT -5 The Captain said:

Sept 19, 2014 9:43:56 GMT -5 mmhmm said:

Captain, a loan isn't going to help. If you loan them money now, they'll be back very shortly for more. I think you know that. It sounds like you've got the housing issue solved with the prospect of your relative moving in. You just can't take them in.

Sometimes, the need for "tough love" rears its ugly head and we have to heed the call. The only one who can help this woman is - this woman. She needs to cut the dead wood (her useless DH) and get herself together. She's no spring chicken and doesn't have much time to put things right for herself. He's nothing more than a drain. Her kids need her to get it together, and she needs that for herself. It might cost you the relationship. Sometimes, it does; however, it's the most caring thing to do. You can't fix her issues.

On one level I know you're right, but let me ask.  If it were your sister or daughter wwyd?

I freaking hate that she's in the position now, and has been in it before.

  Captain, you can't fix her.   You can't give all of the money she's going to "need" because she and her husband created a family that they can't support.   Are you going honestly pay for all of the food, transportation costs ( gas and car repairs ), clothes for the kids, medical insurance fir the family ( !), increased utility costs, and the general wear and tear on your marriage, your life that you've arranged, and your own children ( if I recall correctly ).   You must know that she's crossing the friendship boundary if she's asking you ( albeit in an indirect way ) to move in with you.   Just because she listened to you vent and helped you with your difficult situation doesn't mean that you need to cross the bridge and let them SPONGE off of you.   Sad stories are a dime a dozen in this world, and this one is self-inflicted.    I feel sorry for people with terrible diseases, or who lose a child, or who are caught in a warzone, not for people who don't have any savings and don't work ( husband ).   


    My sister takes care of her own shit, and no, I wouldn't let her move in with me under those circumstances.   ( Sorry I can't fix the bold for some reason ).

[Nazgul Girl]

Sept 19, 2014 12:18:06 GMT -5 NoNamePerson said:

I'm just cynical enough to think that they have run thru the list of people who usually bail them out now have moved to the OP (Captain). If told no, they will move on down the line till someone says yes. I had to learn this lesson the hard way with friend always "needing" help. She always just found someone else. Turned into a way of life.   I felt bad at first but I got over it.

   Me, too.   And, after I learned it the one time ( three years ago ), I didn't even feel bad.  

[Deleted]

I have a soft spot for people that are doing the best they can and end up in a crappy situation, even if some of the crappy situation is due to poor choices. Probably because I've been there myself. However, it changes things when they have a crappy partner that's not even trying to do anything to make things better. I'm a lot harder with those situations.

Most people that I'm close enough to to call my friend, know how I feel about things like that. I'm not going far out of my way to help them make life easy for a deadbeat. I'll help a single friend or even a friend that's part of a couple that's working together but struggling. The thing is, the couples that I would help, the husband would rather get out there and hustle (legal hustles) if that's all he's got, than kick back and let his wife's friend help her make things happen while he does nothing. It's funny how a lot of the times the people you'd be most willing to help are often the ones that have the hardest time accepting help.

I'd let my friend spend a few nights if she needs to for job searching and interviews. That's about it.

[Deleted]

Are they losing their house? I'm not sure I understand why they'd all have to move in with you. The kids are big, they can stay at home with the dad for a while. Or with family. Oreven alone.

I'm NOT saying the kids are deadbeats. But how can anybody expect a teenager to find a job if they don't even know where they'll be living or going to school?! The kids can't look for a job until one of their parents finds one, that's just common sense! (That's NOT addressed to you, Captain!)

If you can afford it, I'd offer to "gift" them half of the security deposit / first month / last month, and to have my friend over (alone) so she could job hunt. But only half (or 2/3), because I think they need some skin in the game too.  

No good deed goes unpunished. When my ex and I first lived here, we both rode horses. The group became very close and we socialized together A LOT. (I KNOW it's not the same as knowing someone since college, but still.) The riding instructor was going through a rough divorce (turns out because he was bonking a woman in the group but we hadn't realized that yet.) He had 3 kids living with their mom in another part of France. 

We felt sorry for him and offered for him to move in with us. After FOUR MONTHS, we all sat down to dinner and my ex and I brought up the fact that it had been 4 months, and maybe he needed to START to THINK about a new plan. 

He stood up so abruptly his chair fell on the floor. He ran to the guest room, packed, and left, slamming the door. Within about 10 min of us bringing it up.

One reason we were all having dinner together that night was there was a snowstorm that night. So, HE CHOSE to leave during the snowstorm. He told the entire group we had "thrown him out during the snowstorm". Of course, they all stopped speaking to us. The group broke up, he moved back home (I don't know whether or not he and his wife ended up together or not.)

My ex and I were both HEARTBROKEN. We had cared about this man, taken him into our home, and ended up getting shafted. We learned a HUGE lesson that night. Seriously, no good deed goes unpunished. 

We also used to have his 3 boys over every other weekend (before we had kids!!!), and pay for all the food, and even the diapers. He'd order one (individual) take-out pizza, for 6 people. WTF?! But my ex and I were young (24 and 26) and this man was much older and at the time, we THOUGHT he was acting badly, but we weren't quite sure. I know that sounds crazy now that I'm 54 instead of 24. 

All this to say, it seems like given the situation, whatever you offer in terms of housing, or even money, your friend is likely to feel it's inadequate. So think long and hard about it. 

Hugs to you, it's a crappy situation. I hope you don't lose the friendship over it, but you may, at least for a while. Keep in mind, you may also be relieved. 

ETA: I also don't think there's anything wrong with telling her that she's been carrying the family finances / responsibilities for a LONG time, and now it's time for her DH to step up to the plate. If you lose the friendship over that (IMO) so be it. It's still the truth, and maybe your friend needs to hear it, especially from somebody she knows loves her. 

[zibazinski]

Just don't you be the one to pick up her pieces. She made her choice and continues to make her choices. She could have unloaded the freeloader years ago and chose not to. Her choice, her problem.