Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 14:56:10 GMT -5
Although behavioural science is infamous for magnifying simple experiments into hulking overgeneralizations, in this case I have to say they hit the nail squarely on the head. Behold the marvels of modern science! ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/laugh.png) Prof. Daniel Mills: "What our research shows so far is that the relationship between a cat and an owner is not what would be described as a 'secure attachment' style relationship. Certainly owners believe that their cats are very affectionate towards them, but we're starting to think that the cat views the owner more as the provider of resources than the provider of safety, which is the key feature of the 'secure attachment'. "Clearly cat owners love cats. It's difficult to say whether or not cats love back." Cat owners may now return to providing resources for their maste- ... eh... "pets". ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/charmed.png)
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 25, 2014 15:16:40 GMT -5
1. Cats are curious and was checking out the new person in the room. They already know the owner's smells, etc. 2. The cat did seem a bit upset when the owner left and ran to the stranger asking where their mommy went and when she'd be back. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) 3. When their mommy reappeared, the stranger was moving a toy around distracting kitty to play with her, the kitty felt ok to play with the stranger since mommy was back and they felt secure again with the stranger still there. 4. The cat is not insecure or needy and doesn't need their mommy's attentions 24/7 like the needy dog and child do. Or they don't like that mommy and was picking out their new one which I think is why I now have 5. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) Personally, I prefer cats because they are very interactive and funny but not so needy ALL the time. I don't care for overly needy people or pets.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 15:30:19 GMT -5
Are you questioning science? Do you have a degree in animal psychology? Have you presented at symposiums on animal behaviour? How many peer-reviewed journal articles have you published on the subject of cat psychology? Are you Prof. Peace of Mind Ph.D.? And yet you presume to question scientifically established fact? The nerve! The audacity! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahright.png) That's good. Because in ten years, they'll have strengthened their conclusion to "Your cat sees you as a box... out of which occasionally comes food and petting." ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/charmed.png)
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 15:37:45 GMT -5
I love my cat. I'm not all that worried about if she's head over heels for me. If I wanted that, I'd get a dog. Part of the enjoyment in a cat is the aloofness & that they really don't need us, but that they tolerate us for food. I'm okay with that. A dog will shit itself with happiness when you walk back inside from checking the mail. I always think that's really stupid. I was gone all of 2 minutes, get a grip.
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Post by Jaguar on May 25, 2014 15:49:52 GMT -5
Dogs are so fake with their love, needy and stupid.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 15:52:08 GMT -5
Steff gets a "like" for being the first cat owner to officially move from stage 1, Denial, to stage 2, Bargaining. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png)
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on May 25, 2014 16:11:40 GMT -5
Are you questioning science? Do you have a degree in animal psychology? Have you presented at symposiums on animal behaviour? How many peer-reviewed journal articles have you published on the subject of cat psychology? Are you Prof. Peace of Mind Ph.D.? This coming from Virgil Syquil, BS. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 16:16:15 GMT -5
Steff gets a "like" for being the first cat owner to officially move from stage 1, Denial, to stage 2, Bargaining. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/thumbsup.png) Take into account that I just lost 1 of my 2 cats in January & I'm now at the stage where I'm thinking of getting another one. I'm a cat lover that understands that a cat would be just fine & dandy without people. And I LIKE that aspect of them.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 25, 2014 17:15:24 GMT -5
I have five indoor cats-one male and four females. Since the first day two of the females entered the home 10 years ago, they have always wanted to hang around/sleep/nap side-by-side with the male cat. He put up with it. But when it came to nap time or bed time for me, the male cat always chose me over the other cats.
The male cat is now 18 years old and in failing health. The two females still want to crowd and smother him by sleeping all over him. The other day, I saw him swat one of the two females to leave him alone. But when it still comes to nap or bed time for me, it's still me whom he sleeps with.
Does the male cat love me? I do not think cats 'love' their caretakers nor understand the concept. Do cat's like their caretakers? Do cats like some people over others? Yes, I think they do. And food often has nothing to do with it.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on May 25, 2014 17:22:57 GMT -5
This is so true. Of the cat's who've lived with us, all were adopted as young kittens.
DH actually picked-out and brought home two of them - yet they've always gravitated toward me - and I was the one who's lap they'd curl up on when we were watching TV or a movie, or who's legs they'd snuggle against in bed.
They all basically just tolerated DH's presence (much like me). ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 17:49:04 GMT -5
Someone needs to do a scientific study on Virgil's deep fear of cats and his insane need to be better than a cat/cat lover. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Post by NancysSummerSip on May 25, 2014 17:58:21 GMT -5
Are you questioning science? Do you have a degree in animal psychology? Have you presented at symposiums on animal behaviour? How many peer-reviewed journal articles have you published on the subject of cat psychology? Are you Prof. Peace of Mind Ph.D.? And yet you presume to question scientifically established fact? The nerve! The audacity! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahright.png) That's good. Because in ten years, they'll have strengthened their conclusion to "Your cat sees you as a box... out of which occasionally comes food and petting." ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/charmed.png) Sheeh, my cats have never thought of me as anything else. For that matter, I think DH sees me the same way. Doesn't mean they don't love me. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/duh.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 18:11:36 GMT -5
Someone needs to do a scientific study on Virgil's deep fear of cats and his insane need to be better than a cat/cat lover. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) I have nothing against cats. I find cat owners less than objective when it comes to assessing their pets, but that's what happens when we love something. Love smooths over the bumps and covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. This thread was one part ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/bravado.gif) , one part getting people to critically examine the conclusions of a behavioural science study, and one part vindicating my position in the Great "Are Cats Aloof?" Debate of 2013. My work here is done. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png)
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 18:22:12 GMT -5
Are you questioning science? Do you have a degree in animal psychology? Have you presented at symposiums on animal behaviour? How many peer-reviewed journal articles have you published on the subject of cat psychology? Are you Prof. Peace of Mind Ph.D.? And yet you presume to question scientifically established fact? The nerve! The audacity! ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/yeahright.png) That's good. Because in ten years, they'll have strengthened their conclusion to "Your cat sees you as a box... out of which occasionally comes food and petting." ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/charmed.png) Sheeh, my cats have never thought of me as anything else. For that matter, I think DH sees me the same way. Doesn't mean they don't love me. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/duh.png) I suppose that's one of the fundamental differences between cat owners and dog owners. When I own a pet, I'd like to believe I'm special and difficult to replace. I want it to forge an emotional attachment to me similar to the attachment I've forged to it, which can't happen if the animal sees me as a box that coughs up food and belly rubs every once in a while. I might as well be an automaton. It goes back to my lengthy thesis in the "Enough is Enough" thread.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 18:27:20 GMT -5
Someone needs to do a scientific study on Virgil's deep fear of cats and his insane need to be better than a cat/cat lover. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) I have nothing against cats. I find cat owners less than objective when it comes to assessing their pets, but that's what happens when we love something. Love smooths over the bumps and covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. This thread was one part ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/bravado.gif) , one part getting people to critically examine the conclusions of a behavioural science study, and one part vindicating my position in the Great "Are Cats Aloof?" Debate of 2013. My work here is done. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png) So cat lovers are strange because we don't need an animal to validate that we're special? And you can't make an animal love you anymore than you can make a person love you. I'd hate to see what you say about Goldfish owners. LOL
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 18:34:49 GMT -5
I have nothing against cats. I find cat owners less than objective when it comes to assessing their pets, but that's what happens when we love something. Love smooths over the bumps and covers a multitude of sins, so to speak. This thread was one part ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/bravado.gif) , one part getting people to critically examine the conclusions of a behavioural science study, and one part vindicating my position in the Great "Are Cats Aloof?" Debate of 2013. My work here is done. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/nerdy.png) So cat lovers are strange because we don't need an animal to validate that we're special? And you can't make an animal love you anymore than you can make a person love you. I'd hate to see what you say about Goldfish owners. LOL You're not strange; you're just different from dog owners in that respect. Secondly, this isn't about making an animal love you, it's about the animal's capacity for love (as I outlined here in a previous debate). Finally, goldfish owners typically don't claim their goldfish love them. They own the fish because the fish are beautiful, decorative, and soothing to watch. The cat owners of NMSNM, by contrast, have made hundreds of very bold claims about how much their cats love them. Read through the various threads I've linked to for examples.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 18:37:39 GMT -5
So cat lovers are strange because we don't need an animal to validate that we're special? And you can't make an animal love you anymore than you can make a person love you. I'd hate to see what you say about Goldfish owners. LOL You're not strange; you're just different from dog owners in that respect. Secondly, this isn't about making an animal love you, it's about the animal's capacity for love (as I outlined here in a previous debate). Finally, goldfish owners typically don't claim their goldfish love them. They own the fish because the fish are beautiful, decorative, and soothing to watch. The cat owners of NMSNM, by contrast, have made hundreds of very bold claims about how much their cats love them. Read through the various threads I've linked to for examples. Go outside for 2 minutes & then come back inside & your dog will go ape shit with excitement to see you. Maybe that will make you feel....better.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 18:54:39 GMT -5
You're not strange; you're just different from dog owners in that respect. Secondly, this isn't about making an animal love you, it's about the animal's capacity for love (as I outlined here in a previous debate). Finally, goldfish owners typically don't claim their goldfish love them. They own the fish because the fish are beautiful, decorative, and soothing to watch. The cat owners of NMSNM, by contrast, have made hundreds of very bold claims about how much their cats love them. Read through the various threads I've linked to for examples. Go outside for 2 minutes & then come back inside & your dog will go ape shit with excitement to see you. Maybe that will make you feel....better. Sure. I left and then came back, and pooch is happy to see me. If I've trained him well, he'll calm down quickly and won't engage in behaviours I object to (jumping up, etc.) Depending on training, breed, etc., a dog will range from "generally attentive" to "needy" in terms of how much of an attachment (s)he forms. But that attachment is a desired thing. Consider that in the "Hero Cat" video, NMSNMers bent over backwards arguing that the cat was defending the boy rather than simply running a dog off her territory. This theory posits an attachment to the boy. If there's no attachment, the act is no more "heroic" than a gangster running a rival gang member off his turf. To me that suggests that cat owners do value strong attachments. Tenn's, mmhmm's, and Sugilite's anecdotes about their cats suggest the same thing.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on May 25, 2014 19:01:44 GMT -5
The cat shows its love though it's "body language" and even it's verbal "language".
If it's angry or frightened, it hisses - much like the dog growls.
When it's content or relaxed, it will purr - if it wants to express affection, it will crawl up near your face and give you a gentle nudge on your face, or a lick, or will softly purr in your ear. It will "knead" on your lap, then curl up for a snooze - in bed, they'll find a niche to sleep in the curve of your leg behind the knee - or at the base of your back - or resting across your arm.
They're no different really, than dogs - who'll curl up at your feet, or in your lap (if they're small), or at the foot of your bed (or even on your bed if you let them). I wonder how comfortable this woman is sleeping with a giant St Bernard taking up all the space:
(Notice it's the cat she's cuddling who's actually the affectionate pet in this household - the other one's just a four-legged garbage disposal that poops & hogs the bed). ![](http://f.kulfoto.com/pic/0001/0039/hR4Jh38813.jpg)
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 19:07:07 GMT -5
Go outside for 2 minutes & then come back inside & your dog will go ape shit with excitement to see you. Maybe that will make you feel....better. Sure. I left and then came back, and pooch is happy to see me. If I've trained him well, he'll calm down quickly and won't engage in behaviours I object to (jumping up, etc.) Depending on training, breed, etc., a dog will range from "generally attentive" to "needy" in terms of how much of an attachment (s)he forms. But that attachment is a desired thing. Consider that in the "Hero Cat" video, NMSNMers bent over backwards arguing that the cat was defending the boy rather than simply running a dog off her territory. This theory posits an attachment to the boy. If there's no attachment, the act is no more "heroic" than a gangster running a rival gang member off his turf. To me that suggests that cat owners do value strong attachments. Tenn's, mmhmm's, and Sugilite's anecdotes about their cats suggest the same thing. you REALLY need to get out more....like seriously.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 25, 2014 19:18:20 GMT -5
Virgil - One should not criticize what one does not understand. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Post by zibazinski on May 25, 2014 19:48:31 GMT -5
Are you kidding me? I KNOW the cats view me as staff and someone warm to sleep on. I'm good with that. DF probably thinks the same way, just on a different level.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on May 25, 2014 19:58:36 GMT -5
Virgil - One should not criticize what one does not understand. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) Apparently scientists don't understand it either. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png) SL: The many behaviours you mention in cats are nice, but the question is whether the cat is showing genuine affection or simply behaving in a way it knows will elicit a desirable response from its owner (rubs, play, body warmth, etc.) That is: does the animal see you as a valued companion or simply as a resource? I was just out talking with our neighbour, and she happened to have her cat "Ruby" with her. I mentioned our discussion and asked her whether she felt Ruby loved her. She said she was certain Ruby loved her, and listed several of the behaviours that had convinced her (Ruby pawing at her hand while she's working at the keyboard, coming to be petted, etc.) I asked her whether she felt she was replaceable in Ruby's eyes. I'd expected her to say "no", but she told me a story about moving out of her old house with a previous cat she'd owned. She said she'd fully expected the cat to follow her anywhere, but it was attached to the house. She said that between her and the house, the cat definitely loved the house more. I didn't press for details. So... can that be reconciled with selfless love? I don't know. It seems doubtful to me, which has been my issue with "kitty loves me" all along. A "love" based solely on what one person (or pet) can get out of another is--at best--a fairweather friendship, which most people would concede is barely love at all.
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 20:02:22 GMT -5
Is it bad that I find it hysterical that Virgil is close to obsessed with understanding why cat owners have cats & what the benefits are?
It's a cat! some are cat people, some are dog people. STOP trying to analyze something so simple and just accept it. It's not a frigging Nobel Prize subject....it's a CAT! LOL
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on May 25, 2014 20:13:41 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure, Virgil - cats are independent - DH and I could go away for a long weekend of camping, and leave our cat home with a clean litter box, bowls of water & food, & have a weekend away - and he was quite happy being able to sit in the window and bird-watch, or sleep or roam around the house until our return.
A dog on the other hand, has to be walked outdoors (more than once a day) in order to pee or poop, then you have to pick up their excrement, AND feed them so they can need to be walked/pooped again. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
They also need to be bathed & groomed. A cat is self-grooming - even down to trimming its own claws. It seems to me, a cat is far less "high-maintenance" than a dog.
(And cats are far more entertaining).
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steff
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Post by steff on May 25, 2014 20:25:56 GMT -5
One thing I know for sure, Virgil - cats are independent - DH and I could go away for a long weekend of camping, and leave our cat home with a clean litter box, bowls of water & food, & have a weekend away - and he was quite happy being able to sit in the window and bird-watch, or sleep or roam around the house until our return.
A dog on the other hand, has to be walked outdoors (more than once a day) in order to pee or poop, then you have to pick up their excrement, AND feed them so they can need to be walked/pooped again. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
They also need to be bathed & groomed. A cat is self-grooming - even down to trimming its own claws. It seems to me, a cat is far less "high-maintenance" than a dog.
(And cats are far more entertaining). And when you get home, the cat will scream loudly at you for the first 5 minutes, ignore you for the next 24 hours & then completely forgive you after a can of food & fall asleep happily in your lap. And then smack your hand for petting it while it was asleep. Maybe with a small hiss thrown in for good measure. all is normal. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png)
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Post by Jaguar on May 25, 2014 20:31:39 GMT -5
My dog used to shred my bedsheets to pieces if I left for a day or two and the cat would cry for me.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 25, 2014 20:47:53 GMT -5
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Post by Peace Of Mind on May 25, 2014 20:56:57 GMT -5
Tenn - Cat got your tongue? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) (your post looks empty to me) I know my cats care for me by the fact that they want to be with me before they eat or play with their toys or whatever. Even while their food is right there for them they come to me and "thank me" or show me the love then go eat. DH says when he's feeding them breakfast and they hear me up they leave and run to see me. Love? Who knows. I've never claimed to know what they think. Nor do I claim to know what Virgil thinks regardless of what he says. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png) I love all animals but cats are definitely #1 since I can't have a dolphin inside, or a horse... Dogs are also great but I'm more allergic to them and they smell and are messier and more destructive and require way too much attention and you can't be gone for a day or two without hiring a babysitter/dog walker... But I love them very much. In somebody elses house. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png)
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on May 25, 2014 21:31:12 GMT -5
Tenn - Cat got your tongue? ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/grin.png) (your post looks empty to me) I know my cats care for me by the fact that they want to be with me before they eat or play with their toys or whatever. Even while their food is right there for them they come to me and "thank me" or show me the love then go eat. DH says when he's feeding them breakfast and they hear me up they leave and run to see me. Love? Who knows. I've never claimed to know what they think. Nor do I claim to know what Virgil thinks regardless of what he says. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/tongue2.png) I love all animals but cats are definitely #1 since I can't have a dolphin inside, or a horse... Dogs are also great but I'm more allergic to them and they smell and are messier and more destructive and require way too much attention and you can't be gone for a day or two without hiring a babysitter/dog walker... But I love them very much. In somebody elses house. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/wink.png) Something is wrong with Proboards' post video function. When I tap 'edit', the video there. To recap, the video is an indifferent cat to its owner's return. It will be funny tomorrow when Proboards fixes the problem. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png)
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