Dad's rant against common core...

[The Captain]

news.msn.com/us/dad%e2%80%99s-rant-about-common-core-math-problem-goes-viral

“Dear Jack,

Don’t feel bad. I have a Bachelor of Science Degree in Electronics Engineering which included extensive study in differential equations and other higher math applications. Even I cannot explain the Common Core Mathematics approach, nor get the answer correct. In the real world, simplification is valued over complication. Therefore:

427 – 316 = 111

The answer is solved in under 5 seconds: 111. The process used is ridiculous and would result in termination if used.

Sincerely, Frustrated Parent

Yikes."

OMG  this is so me!!!

I have an undergrad in accounting and a Masters in Taxation and haven't been able to help DD with homework since the fourth grade.

[souldoubt]

Saw that article yesterday.  I'm no longer in school but had a teacher in high school who despite showing us the easy way to do some problems would show us the longer way he expected it done on tests which was a joke.  Came across this link regarding common core:

[Deleted]

A friend of mine on FB posted with similar problems- trying to help her 4th grade daughter with her Math homework and had no clue. It didn't help that they weren't allowed to bring their textbooks home.

I am so glad DDIL is planning to home-school their kid(s).

[Deleted]

I'm so glad I send to a school that doesn't give homework.

[shanendoah]

WARNING! Rant ahead.

This is because the Dad is refusing to learn something new. If you actually look at the number line (which makes a lot of sense), it's easy to see what was missed (the 10s place).
My biggest problem with this (and other examples I've seen) is that they are all 467-356=111 type questions. I mean literally, every rant against the "new math" (which actually isn't common core, common core is just the things kids should now NOT how to teach them) uses examples where the answers are all 1s. 
Try this again with a problem like 765-478, where there is double borrowing. Or even 467-368. 
As adults who have been doing this a long time, we intuitively know the answer to 467-368 is 99, but trust me, my 10 y/o does NOT.
Try writing it out yourself- you can't subtract 8 from seven, so you have to borrow from the 6, making that a 5, but now you have 17-8, okay that's 9. Go to the next number. 6-6 is 0, but oh wait, that top 6 is no longer a 6, it's now a 5. You can't subtract 6 from 5, so we need to borrow again. Okay, the 4 is now a 3 and 15-6 is 9. And 4-3 is 1, but wait, the 4 is no longer a 4, it's a 3, so now there's nothing in the hundreds place. The number of places to make a mistake is HUGE. And looking at it on paper, it's a very complicated problem.
Now try it with a number line. Start on the left (instead of the right) because that's how we westerners read. You have a 4 in the hundreds spot, and you need to get to a 3, to take away 1 hundred. That takes us to 367, which is too far, but how far is it? Only too far by 1, so the answer is 99. It's quick, it's simple, it makes total sense, and KIDS get it. (And since we're teaching this to kids, not to BSs in Engineering, isn't that who matters?)

This is NOTHING against you, Captain. I just have a bitch with all the people who believe that the old way obviously has to be the best because that's how they learned it, and their grandparents learned it, etc. Does that mean the world would be better without computer, the internet, smartphones, etc, because our grandparents didn't have those things? 
Math is still math, the answer is the same no matter what way you get it. But we should be celebrating new ways to learn, so that we can help our kids find the way that works best for them, regardless of whether it works best for us.

I also have a problem with people calling Common Core something it is not. Common Core is solely a list of things we think kids, everywhere in this country, should know by the time they are done with 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade etc. It's this novel idea that kids in rich suburbs, poor inner cities, rural communities, etc should all be learning the same things in the same grades (with the exception of advanced classes). How school districts and individual teachers go about teaching those things is still up to them. But I personally see nothing wrong with saying- a 3rd graders need to have learned single digit multiplication, no matter where in the US they live.

[giramomma]

This is why we chose a private school. Our kids have to memorize math facts and do timed tests with pencil and paper. Addition and subtraction in 2nd grade, multiplication and division in 3rd. My oldest did a geometry unit in 4th grade.  They also get introduced to algebraic concepts in 1st grade.  They also teach division how we learned, with remainders and what not.

[shanendoah]

My 4th grader in public school has learned long division- both with remainders, and figuring out to one decimal place. She is now doing geometry - area and perimeter. 
I learned multiplication in 3rd, started division in 4th, but don't really remember doing long division until 5th, and I was in what was one of the best school districts in the country at the time.

[happyhoix]

You have a 4 in the hundreds spot, and you need to get to a 3, to take away 1 hundred. That takes us to 367, which is too far, but how far is it? Only too far by 1, so the answer is 99. It's quick, it's simple, it makes total sense, and KIDS get it.

Thanks Shane, I saw that number line and couldn't figure out how to use it, now that you explain it, I can see that it would be easy to use.

Kind of wish we DID have that back when I was struggling through elementary school math.

[muttleynfelix]

I also have a problem with people calling Common Core something it is not. Common Core is solely a list of things we think kids, everywhere in this country, should know by the time they are done with 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade etc. It's this novel idea that kids in rich suburbs, poor inner cities, rural communities, etc should all be learning the same things in the same grades (with the exception of advanced classes). How school districts and individual teachers go about teaching those things is still up to them. But I personally see nothing wrong with saying- a 3rd graders need to have learned single digit multiplication, no matter where in the US they live.

Except in my limited understanding it is more than that. It is being specific in how things are taught.  At least that is what the teacher in my niece's 4th grade class told my sister.  That the fun things she use to do to engage kids, she can't do under sommon core.  Obviously this is 3rd hand - the teacher to my sister to me.  But we were just talking about it this weekend and basically it is a massive failure. Yes, my sister is one of those white suburban soccer moms the secretary of ed ranted against.  And yes the teacher said kids that use to make A's are now making B's. 

[sarcasticgirl]

wtf is common core??

[The Captain]

Mar 27, 2014 13:40:51 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

WARNING! Rant ahead.

This is because the Dad is refusing to learn something new. If you actually look at the number line (which makes a lot of sense), it's easy to see what was missed (the 10s place).
My biggest problem with this (and other examples I've seen) is that they are all 467-356=111 type questions. I mean literally, every rant against the "new math" (which actually isn't common core, common core is just the things kids should now NOT how to teach them) uses examples where the answers are all 1s. 
Try this again with a problem like 765-478, where there is double borrowing. Or even 467-368. 
As adults who have been doing this a long time, we intuitively know the answer to 467-368 is 99, but trust me, my 10 y/o does NOT.
Try writing it out yourself- you can't subtract 8 from seven, so you have to borrow from the 6, making that a 5, but now you have 17-8, okay that's 9. Go to the next number. 6-6 is 0, but oh wait, that top 6 is no longer a 6, it's now a 5. You can't subtract 6 from 5, so we need to borrow again. Okay, the 4 is now a 3 and 15-6 is 9. And 4-3 is 1, but wait, the 4 is no longer a 4, it's a 3, so now there's nothing in the hundreds place. The number of places to make a mistake is HUGE. And looking at it on paper, it's a very complicated problem.
Now try it with a number line. Start on the left (instead of the right) because that's how we westerners read. You have a 4 in the hundreds spot, and you need to get to a 3, to take away 1 hundred. That takes us to 367, which is too far, but how far is it? Only too far by 1, so the answer is 99. It's quick, it's simple, it makes total sense, and KIDS get it. (And since we're teaching this to kids, not to BSs in Engineering, isn't that who matters?)

This is NOTHING against you, Captain. I just have a bitch with all the people who believe that the old way obviously has to be the best because that's how they learned it, and their grandparents learned it, etc. Does that mean the world would be better without computer, the internet, smartphones, etc, because our grandparents didn't have those things? 
Math is still math, the answer is the same no matter what way you get it. But we should be celebrating new ways to learn, so that we can help our kids find the way that works best for them, regardless of whether it works best for us.

I also have a problem with people calling Common Core something it is not. Common Core is solely a list of things we think kids, everywhere in this country, should know by the time they are done with 1st, 2nd, 3rd grade etc. It's this novel idea that kids in rich suburbs, poor inner cities, rural communities, etc should all be learning the same things in the same grades (with the exception of advanced classes). How school districts and individual teachers go about teaching those things is still up to them. But I personally see nothing wrong with saying- a 3rd graders need to have learned single digit multiplication, no matter where in the US they live.

Shane,

I'm going to guess that you've studied quite a bit of math or that it come intuitively to you.  To be honest, what you state as "intuitive" is not for me - I have to go through the steps.

You made (obviously) an attempt to explain how it works but maybe I'm too old or set in my ways but I'm struggling with it.

There is another explanation also - not everyone learns the same way.  For example what is half of 8?

When I was a kid I gave three answers - 0, 3, and 4.  All were correct but only one was the answer  the teacher wanted.  I also do percentages a little different then DH does (it drives him nuts) if something is 30% off I take 10% then multiply it by three in my head, he's able to the the straight number.

I used to be in favor of common core, but I'm not sure one size fits all instruction is for the best.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

Math is still math, the answer is the same no matter what way you get it. But we should be celebrating new ways to learn, so that we can help our kids find the way that works best for them, regardless of whether it works best for us



My Alegra III teacher in High School took that approach. If there were two ways to do a problem he'd show you both and leave it up to you which one you preferred since both methods were considered acceptable.

I really struggle with math. Being able to choose between two acceptable methods really helped me out.

[Deleted]

Math should be outlawed.

[kent]

Mar 27, 2014 13:59:10 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

wtf is common core??

Here's an example:

www.engageny.org/sites/default/files/resource/attachments/math-grade-3.pdf

[shanendoah]

I got a D the second time I took Calc II. I suck at math. I am really good at arithmetic and basic algebra.

Here is the thing- there is Common Core and then there is Common Core as it is being instituted by YOUR state, school district, school, teacher.

A nation wide learning plan is too big a thing for them to be proscribing specific methods of teaching. All Common Core is is a list of standards that every kid should know upon completing a certain grade. That's it.

However, your state may be implementing it with specific rules on how to teach. Your school district may be implementing it with specific rules. Your school may be implementing it with specific rules to normalize the classroom experience between teachers. 
And since the states/districts/schools are implementing these new rules in conjunction with Common Core, it's simple to be able to claim they are Common Core. BUT THEY ARE NOT. And by saying that, it also lets everyone pass the buck back up the line. "Oh, it's not us, it's Common Core". Guess what, that's BS. It might not be the teacher, it might be the school. It might not be the school, it might be the district. It might not be the district, it might be the state board of education, but that's as far up as it can actually go. It is NOT Common Core. Again, Common Core is just a list of the things they should know, and NOT a proscription of how they should be taught.

Captain- I totally agree with you. And in my experience, so do teachers. My daughter has had to learn both the traditional way of doing addition/subtraction, but also the number line way. Number line makes a lot more sense to her, so that's what we continue to use, but she learned BOTH.

As for how you take percentages in your head- I do the same thing you do. Which is, actually, a lot more like the number line than going straight to 30%. In fact, the number line, and the breakdowns that I see most people ranting about (this is not how you do math), is, in fact, much more like how most people I know do math in their heads. It just seems complicated writing that mental process down- after all, taking 10% and then multiplying by 3 is two steps, when just taking 30% is only one step.

[sarcasticgirl]

Mar 27, 2014 14:06:01 GMT -5 kent said:

Mar 27, 2014 13:59:10 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

wtf is common core??

Here's an example:

www.engageny.org/sites/default/files/resource/attachments/math-grade-3.pdf

i think i just failed 3rd grade.

[Wisconsin Beth]

Shane, thanks for the rant.  DH is super pissed about Common Core and you just explained it in a way I can actually argue with him. 

[midjd]

Thanks for explaining the number line - I was really confused by that. It makes a little more sense now.

DD goes to a Montessori daycare/preschool/K-6 and we may keep her there... I don't know a ton about how the older classes are structured, but they seem to do a lot of work with the abacus, which I think is more similar to the CC method than the way we learned it. Time will tell how that works out.

Captain, that's how I figure percents, too

[swamp]

Mar 27, 2014 14:20:48 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

Mar 27, 2014 14:06:01 GMT -5 kent said:

Here's an example:

www.engageny.org/sites/default/files/resource/attachments/math-grade-3.pdf

i think i just failed 3rd grade.

don't feel bad. I failed 2nd grade math.

[kent]

Mar 27, 2014 14:20:48 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

Mar 27, 2014 14:06:01 GMT -5 kent said:

Here's an example:

www.engageny.org/sites/default/files/resource/attachments/math-grade-3.pdf

i think i just failed 3rd grade.

LOL You could always try the Trachtenberg system.  I actually took a math class that required a term paper on a significant math principle or mathematician and this is what I picked.  Interesting guy and I still remember a lot about the system - real handy stuff when you go to a "math party." 

mnemotechnics.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_System

Example: 123456 * 789

To find the first digit of the answer:
The units digit of 9 * 6 = 4.

To find the second digit of the answer, start at the second digit of the multiplicand:
The units digit of 9 * 5 plus the tens digit of 9 * 6 plus
The units digit of 8 * 6.
5 + 5 + 8 = 18.
The second digit of the answer is 8 and carry 1 to the third digit.

To find the fourth digit of the answer, start at the fourth digit of the multiplicand:
The units digit of 9 * 3 plus the tens digit of 9 * 4 plus
The units digit of 8 * 4 plus the tens digit of 8 * 5 plus
The units digit of 7 * 5 plus the tens digit of 7 * 6.
7 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 4 = 25 + 1 carried from the third digit.
The fourth digit of the answer is 6 and carry 2 to the next digit.


Two headed arrows drawn from each digit of the multiplier to two digits of the multiplicand


2 Finger method
Professor Trachtenberg called this the 2 Finger Method. The calculations for finding the fourth digit from the example above are illustrated at right. The arrow from the nine will always point to the digit of the multiplicand directly above the digit of the answer you wish to find, with the other arrows each pointing one digit to the right. Each arrow head points to a UT Pair, or Product Pair. The vertical arrow points to the product where we will get the Units digit, and the sloping arrow points to the product where we will get the Tens digits of the Product Pair. If an arrow points to a space with no digit there is no calculation for that arrow. As you solve for each digit you will move each of the arrows over the multiplicand one digit to the left until all of the arrows point to prefixed zeros.

[Deleted]

DD is in 3rd grade. Hr school used the common core textbook and worksheets for their fractions module and she got her best grades of the year thus far!

IDK if she is a fractions savant or if she responded to the style of teaching. I have never had a strong opinion either way about Common Core.

[Wisconsin Beth]

DD's learning the basics of addition and subtraction in K5.  She's using her fingers still but it's a start. 

[sarcasticgirl]

Mar 27, 2014 14:33:31 GMT -5 kent said:

Mar 27, 2014 14:20:48 GMT -5 sarcasticgirl said:

i think i just failed 3rd grade.

LOL You could always try the Trachtenberg system.  I actually took a math class that required a term paper on a significant math principle or mathematician and this is what I picked.  Interesting guy and I still remember a lot about the system - real handy stuff when you go to a "math party." 

mnemotechnics.org/wiki/Trachtenberg_System

Example: 123456 * 789

To find the first digit of the answer:
The units digit of 9 * 6 = 4.

To find the second digit of the answer, start at the second digit of the multiplicand:
The units digit of 9 * 5 plus the tens digit of 9 * 6 plus
The units digit of 8 * 6.
5 + 5 + 8 = 18.
The second digit of the answer is 8 and carry 1 to the third digit.

To find the fourth digit of the answer, start at the fourth digit of the multiplicand:
The units digit of 9 * 3 plus the tens digit of 9 * 4 plus
The units digit of 8 * 4 plus the tens digit of 8 * 5 plus
The units digit of 7 * 5 plus the tens digit of 7 * 6.
7 + 3 + 2 + 4 + 5 + 4 = 25 + 1 carried from the third digit.
The fourth digit of the answer is 6 and carry 2 to the next digit.


Two headed arrows drawn from each digit of the multiplier to two digits of the multiplicand


2 Finger method
Professor Trachtenberg called this the 2 Finger Method. The calculations for finding the fourth digit from the example above are illustrated at right. The arrow from the nine will always point to the digit of the multiplicand directly above the digit of the answer you wish to find, with the other arrows each pointing one digit to the right. Each arrow head points to a UT Pair, or Product Pair. The vertical arrow points to the product where we will get the Units digit, and the sloping arrow points to the product where we will get the Tens digits of the Product Pair. If an arrow points to a space with no digit there is no calculation for that arrow. As you solve for each digit you will move each of the arrows over the multiplicand one digit to the left until all of the arrows point to prefixed zeros.

I'm almost certain I just fell asleep. 

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I don't feel so bad about myself now, at least I know I can pass 3rd grade.

[Deleted]

My kids go to a Montessori.  They learn math like this.  I have no clue what they're doing, but my 11 year old can do complex problems in his head now, so it must work.

[Sam_2.0]

Mar 27, 2014 14:42:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

My kids go to a Montessori.  They learn math like this. 

I have a friend with kids in Montessori. The oldest is 5, almost 6, and he writes in cursive and does long multiplication!! I was amazed.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2014 14:47:57 GMT -5 Sam_2.0 said:

Mar 27, 2014 14:42:48 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

My kids go to a Montessori.  They learn math like this. 

I have a friend with kids in Montessori. The oldest is 5, almost 6, and he writes in cursive and does long multiplication!! I was amazed.

It's pretty neat.  They teach cursive before printing because it's easier for the kids to do with the fluid one line motion.  My 3 year old is already doing some writing there.

[muttleynfelix]

Mar 27, 2014 14:30:53 GMT -5 midjd said:

Thanks for explaining the number line - I was really confused by that. It makes a little more sense now.

DD goes to a Montessori daycare/preschool/K-6 and we may keep her there... I don't know a ton about how the older classes are structured, but they seem to do a lot of work with the abacus, which I think is more similar to the CC method than the way we learned it. Time will tell how that works out.

Captain, that's how I figure percents, too

Don't worry, Indiana just dropped common core.

[shanendoah]

Here's an explanation of the number line used in the link The Captain originally posted, which is slightly different than the method I mentioned earlier, but works just as well.

427-316
You start your number line at 427. You then look at what you need to subtract. Unlike "traditional" methods, you start on the left (once again, the way westerners are naturally taught to read) instead of the right, which, in my experience, eliminates some of the most common mistakes.

You have 3 hundreds that you need to take away. The number line shows going in 3 jumps of 100 each, taking us to 127.
You then have 1 tens that you need to take away (and this is what you were supposed to find wrong in the question). We do one jumps of 10, taking us to 117.
Finally, we have 6 ones that need to be taken away, that takes us to 111.



Again, with answers like 111, it always seems simpler to do it the old fashioned way, especially since there would be no borrowing. So let's look at the more complicated problem I posed.

765-478
Start our number line at 765
Take away 4 hundreds. That leaves us at 365.
Take away 7 tens. That leaves us at 295.
Take away 8 ones. That leaves us at 287.

Remember this compares to
765
-
478
_____

Start on the right, in the ones place. You can't take 8 from 5, so borrow from the 10s place giving us 15-8 is 7
Move to the 10s place. Remember, the 6 is now a 5. You can't take 7 from 5, so borrow from the 100s place, giving us 15-7 is 8
Move to the 100s place. Remember, the 7 is now a 6. 6-4 is 2.
That gives us 287.

Now, I am biased in that my 4th grader still does addition and subtraction on her fingers (she has a very solid grasp of multiplication and division, but based on what her life was like when she was learning addition and subtraction, that didn't stick as well), so she'd like use a number line or count on her fingers to get 15-8 anyway.

Now, you may look at the number line example and say there's "borrowing" when you take away the tens and the ones, but there's not really, because you're just moving down a number line. The jump from 305 to 295 is not any harder than the jump from 315 to 305 was, as long as you understand counting. And again, this is just my experience, but kids seem to "get" moving down the number line in a way they don't "get" why they are borrowing or how that really works.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2014 15:04:15 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Here's an explanation of the number line used in the link The Captain originally posted, which is slightly different than the method I mentioned earlier, but works just as well.

427-316
You start your number line at 427. You then look at what you need to subtract. Unlike "traditional" methods, you start on the left (once again, the way westerners are naturally taught to read) instead of the right, which, in my experience, eliminates some of the most common mistakes.

You have 3 hundreds that you need to take away. The number line shows going in 3 jumps of 100 each, taking us to 127.
You then have 1 tens that you need to take away (and this is what you were supposed to find wrong in the question). We do one jumps of 10, taking us to 117.
Finally, we have 6 ones that need to be taken away, that takes us to 111.



Again, with answers like 111, it always seems simpler to do it the old fashioned way, especially since there would be no borrowing. So let's look at the more complicated problem I posed.

765-478
Start our number line at 765
Take away 4 hundreds. That leaves us at 365.
Take away 7 tens. That leaves us at 295.
Take away 8 ones. That leaves us at 287.

Remember this compares to
765
-
478
_____

Start on the right, in the ones place. You can't take 8 from 5, so borrow from the 10s place giving us 15-8 is 7
Move to the 10s place. Remember, the 6 is now a 5. You can't take 7 from 5, so borrow from the 100s place, giving us 15-7 is 8
Move to the 100s place. Remember, the 7 is now a 6. 6-4 is 2.
That gives us 287.

Now, I am biased in that my 4th grader still does addition and subtraction on her fingers (she has a very solid grasp of multiplication and division, but based on what her life was like when she was learning addition and subtraction, that didn't stick as well), so she'd like use a number line or count on her fingers to get 15-8 anyway.

Now, you may look at the number line example and say there's "borrowing" when you take away the tens and the ones, but there's not really, because you're just moving down a number line. The jump from 305 to 295 is not any harder than the jump from 315 to 305 was, as long as you understand counting. And again, this is just my experience, but kids seem to "get" moving down the number line in a way they don't "get" why they are borrowing or how that really works.

That is actually pretty cool.