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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:06:10 GMT -5
The higher level skill has nothing to do with drawing a picture.
It is the ability to analyze, evaluate, articulate ...
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 9:06:56 GMT -5
The higher level skill has nothing to do with drawing a picture. It is the ability to analyze, evaluate, articulate ... Then why the push to do it this way? My way is just as valid and makes WAY more sense to me.....
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 28, 2014 9:11:40 GMT -5
I've always done it in the "table" way 427 326 111- subtracting it from the last number to the first. I've never even seen a number line until I started teaching math to my kids using Singapore curriculum.
I think it's crazy that govt keeps coming up with all those "let's improve the education" ideas.
I think we need to give teachers a lot more latitude and freedom to do what they need to do. They are the one who are there, interacting with kids and it's teachers who know the best what would work for that particular class.
And they should be the ones creating tests. Govt should not be involved in "how" anything should be taught. That's just ridiculous.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:12:27 GMT -5
Do it what way? Number lines are just one of the tools used. This is one problem.
Again, this was not about 'doing' a math problem... it was about analyzing another person's thought process and identifying their mistake... THAT was what needed to be 'done'. Not arriving at the answer 111. 111 is not the answer to the problem: Analyze the process Bobby used, identify his mistake and tell him what he did right and where he went wrong.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:16:32 GMT -5
The higher level skill has nothing to do with drawing a picture. It is the ability to analyze, evaluate, articulate ... Then why the push to do it this way? My way is just as valid and makes WAY more sense to me..... Your way makes sense to you. Some kids will respond to the pictures. So if we expose them to a bunch of different ways they can figure out which one works for them.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 28, 2014 9:18:43 GMT -5
Some kids will respond to the pictures. So if we expose them to a bunch of different ways they can figure out which one works for them. Aww crud, so we're going to have three people in our house doing math three different ways. Yay for calculators!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 9:20:21 GMT -5
Then why the push to do it this way? My way is just as valid and makes WAY more sense to me..... Your way makes sense to you. Some kids will respond to the pictures. So if we expose them to a bunch of different ways they can figure out which one works for them. I said that earlier...but I got the "if you dont' understand it then you don't understand higher level thinking". I think both should be presented and up to the child to use what method they understand on each test. I would be flipping if my daughter understood the concept using a rational method but flunked because her brain isn't wired to draw pictures.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:21:10 GMT -5
IDK NomoreDramaQ1015. It's my simplified answer. I haven't studied CC so I assume that's the mission.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 28, 2014 9:22:50 GMT -5
It makes sense. DH wants to strangle me b/c I don't operate on the same level he does when it comes to math. He has no clue what the hell I did when I show him a problem I need help with. So if Gwen thinks totally different from him and in turn I think totally different from DH. .. this could get interesting. Definetly going to hire a tutor. Cheaper probably than family therapy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:23:06 GMT -5
Your way makes sense to you. Some kids will respond to the pictures. So if we expose them to a bunch of different ways they can figure out which one works for them. I said that earlier...but I got the "if you dont' understand it then you don't understand higher level thinking". I think both should be presented and up to the child to use what method they understand on each test. I would be flipping if my daughter understood the concept using a rational method but flunked because her brain isn't wired to draw pictures. Has anyone's educational career been ruined by one quiz?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 28, 2014 9:26:19 GMT -5
I'd still be in HS alegbra if one quiz ruined your educational career. I won't go into how bad I did in Physics and Chemistry once I hit college. Honestly surprised I didn't have to repeat either one of those.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 9:28:45 GMT -5
I said that earlier...but I got the "if you dont' understand it then you don't understand higher level thinking". I think both should be presented and up to the child to use what method they understand on each test. I would be flipping if my daughter understood the concept using a rational method but flunked because her brain isn't wired to draw pictures. Has anyone's educational career been ruined by one quiz? That isn't the point. I look at this as dumbing down the curriculum (jmho of course, others may like this). I wouldn't want this forced on my dd because she learned quickly and easily math concepts without having to draw silly pictures to get her there.
Just my opinion and I have no dog in the fight since we are well beyond this as she is in high school. But if I had to deal with this back then I would have pitched a fit.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:31:39 GMT -5
How is this dumbing down.? ... i'm really stumped. You think employing an algorithm is higher level thinking than having to analyze, synthesize and articulate information?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:32:34 GMT -5
But why? This is one of those instances where bitching about it isn't going to change anything so I am doing my best to help my kids through it. If I don't know what is being asked I usually go back and reference the day's worksheets for a clue. Or I have the kid "teach" me how to do the problem. Writing "this is stupid" on the top of the page won't help anyone. ETA: I stopped taking Math after Geometry (back then you could get a Regent's Diploma without Trig or Calculus ) I had to start with remedial Math in college, so I am no STEMer. But even I can "get it" with a little help.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 9:36:47 GMT -5
How is this dumbing down.? ... i'm really stumped. You think employing an algorithm is higher level thinking than having to analyze, synthesize and articulate information? We will have to agree to disagree. I can assure you that on a daily basis I spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out what someone else (or myself) fucked up. Never once have I drawn humps to figure it out. I spent a lot of time with my dd when she was younger teaching her concepts, etc and never once did I employ silly pictures to get the point across.
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Mar 28, 2014 9:38:17 GMT -5
All I'm going to say is this: the internet (google, bing) has saved my butt many, many times in helping DS with his homework. The way things are done in many subjects, & what is emphasized, is wayyyy different than what they focused on when I was a student.
Carry on!
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 9:38:28 GMT -5
But why? This is one of those instances where bitching about it isn't going to change anything so I am doing my best to help my kids through it. If I don't know what is being asked I usually go back and reference the day's worksheets for a clue. Or I have the kid "teach" me how to do the problem. Writing "this is stupid" on the top of the page won't help anyone. ETA: I stopped taking Math after Geometry (back then you could get a Regent's Diploma without Trig or Calculus ) I had to start with remedial Math in college, so I am no STEMer. But even I can "get it" with a little help. I "get" the problem, I just think it is a dumb way to teach it. I'm sure it has to do with the way I learn and the way I teach....which is why I'm not a teacher because if a child needed me to draw humps for them to "get it", we would all be screwed!lol Luckily my dd learns just like me so we had no issues.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:54:20 GMT -5
How is this dumbing down.? ... i'm really stumped. You think employing an algorithm is higher level thinking than having to analyze, synthesize and articulate information? We will have to agree to disagree. I can assure you that on a daily basis I spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out what someone else (or myself) fucked up. Never once have I drawn humps to figure it out. I spent a lot of time with my dd when she was younger teaching her concepts, etc and never once did I employ silly pictures to get the point across. The question did not require the student to 'draw humps' to answer the question. The number line was used to illustrate the thought process of the person who the student was being asked to analyze... I bet you wouldn't mind an inkling into the thought process of the 'someone else who fucked up'... when you are trying to unravel their mistake. The number line was a visual of an internal process (or what will eventually become an internal process...) Pictures do help some kids. Number lines do help some kids... it is not dumbing it down. I've had lots of kids in class who could tell me '4X5 is 20'... and not have an answer at all when i asked ok. Why?... or How do you know?... Just because someone can memorize doesn't mean they understand and can process... and since machines handle algorithms very well... its the higher level skill that is much more important...
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Mar 28, 2014 9:55:28 GMT -5
Do it what way? Number lines are just one of the tools used. This is one problem. Again, this was not about 'doing' a math problem... it was about analyzing another person's thought process and identifying their mistake... THAT was what needed to be 'done'. Not arriving at the answer 111. 111 is not the answer to the problem: Analyze the process Bobby used, identify his mistake and tell him what he did right and where he went wrong. Was that addressed to me?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:57:05 GMT -5
I think it was directed at Miss T.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 9:57:52 GMT -5
no... tequilla..
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 10:17:26 GMT -5
So, his assessment wasn't about where Jack went wrong, but 'you are doing it wrong'... good assessment, that's helpful. I would still contend that he didn't address the problem.
I am not an algorithm person. I think that if you look at the countries that do well on mathematics, algorithms are not going to show up early in their scope and sequence.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 10:34:28 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 10:37:41 GMT -5
I can do that problem in less than 5 seconds using the method outlined by the numberline... although i might still make the occasional error.
The whole point of the numberline is to illustrate a left to right, mental math process... which allows one to solve the problem without stacking and an algorithm.
There is really no reason someone should have to 'stack' 427 - 316.
400-300= 100, 20-10= 10, 7-6= 1 The answer is 111. I do that in my head. Left to right. No reason to 'stack'... in less than 5 seconds. No issue with the process.
But i'm not saying i couldn't forget to subtract the 10 maybe and get 121... that would be my error.
But to say the process is wrong/long is not accurate. Any process can result in an error. The issue was to understand the process and identify the error. The numberline was just a much easier way to visualize the mental process.
Number lines also still provide concrete examples for kids not into abstract levels of development.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 10:39:44 GMT -5
We will have to agree to disagree. I can assure you that on a daily basis I spend quite a bit of time trying to figure out what someone else (or myself) fucked up. Never once have I drawn humps to figure it out. I spent a lot of time with my dd when she was younger teaching her concepts, etc and never once did I employ silly pictures to get the point across. The question did not require the student to 'draw humps' to answer the question. The number line was used to illustrate the thought process of the person who the student was being asked to analyze... I bet you wouldn't mind an inkling into the thought process of the 'someone else who fucked up'... when you are trying to unravel their mistake. The number line was a visual of an internal process (or what will eventually become an internal process...) Pictures do help some kids. Number lines do help some kids... it is not dumbing it down. I've had lots of kids in class who could tell me '4X5 is 20'... and not have an answer at all when i asked ok. Why?... or How do you know?... Just because someone can memorize doesn't mean they understand and can process... and since machines handle algorithms very well... its the higher level skill that is much more important... and I never expected my daughter to memorize and not under the concept....teaching multiplication is as easy as 5+5+5+5...if you add four fives together you get 20...therefore 4x5 is 20. Very simple concept without any need to muddy it up with pictures.
100+100+100+10+1+1+1=300+10+3=313
See how easy it is to teach concepts without pictures?? Sorry, I will never believe that drawing humps is not dumbing down math
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 10:41:12 GMT -5
"So, his assessment wasn't about where Jack went wrong, but 'you are doing it wrong'... good assessment, that's helpful. I would still contend that he didn't address the problem." If you saw somebody taking 5 minutes to do something that you could do in 5 seconds, using another method, don't you think it would be helpful to share that method?"I think that if you look at the countries that do well on mathematics, algorithms are not going to show up early in their scope and sequence." I believe you.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Mar 28, 2014 10:41:43 GMT -5
I understand why they may choose this method if the rest of the world that outperforms us uses it or something like it. That said it just seems weird to me to hear parents say kids that were getting A's are now getting B's or C's while kids who were getting C's are getting B's or A's. In the end they want kids who are better prepared and better test results and hopefully that's what we get but in the mean time you're now catering to kids who think or process a different way while kids who were doing fine the old way may struggle. I absolutely hated being told we had to do something one way on a test but "hey here's a much easier and quicker way." In the end over half the kids in that class (made up of sophomores-seniors) ended up with D's or F's and that was the only time I ever got anything below a B in high school. I took a summer class with a different teacher to make up for it and ended up getting an A with a teacher who was more concerned with the right answer and not how you arrived at it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Mar 28, 2014 10:41:52 GMT -5
The fact is the father wasn't even close to the right answer. The right answer was NOT 111. The right answer was not possible to achieve by the application of an algorithm. Well, the father's answer wasn't just 111. The father said that Jack's error was using an overly complicated process and recommended that he simplify it by using the stacking method (or whatever it's called). Exactly.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Mar 28, 2014 10:44:06 GMT -5
The thing is, advanced math is based on the simple functions of adding, subtracting, multiplication and division. So you learn how to subtract using a number line, which does make sense in my brain but other than simple principles, exactly how are you going to use this when you are taking algebra, when you are stacking function on function?
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Mar 28, 2014 10:46:41 GMT -5
Again, this example "to destroy common core" was chosen VERY SPECIFICALLY. All the examples in why this is bad use problems where the answer is 111 to make us look at it and say how ridiculously complicated is this to get such a simple answer.
And again, this is NOT Common Core. This is the "new" math, or Singapore math. And it is ONE way of teaching math. One way. And it works better for some students. In my experience (and yes, this is ONLY my experience) the kids are learning this way of doing math AND the "traditional" way we were all taught in school.
No, math has not changed. You get to the same answer no matter which process you use. This is about giving kids a choice, teaching them different processes so that they can figure out what works best for them, and then later use that process. But you do have to teach kids both processes in order for them to know which works better for them.
So one of my favorite counter examples is 3000-2999. Again, most of us adults just look at this and know the answer is 1, but try writing it out the way we ask kids to in traditional math, showing all the work.
3000-2999 Starting on the ones You can't subtract 9 from 0, so you need to borrow But the 10s spot is 0, so you have to borrow from the 100s But the 100s spot is 0, so you have to borrow from the 1000s In the 1000s spot, the 3 is now 2. You put a 10 in the 100s. But you don't want 100s, so the 100s is now 9 and you put a 10 in the 10s But you don't want 10s, so the 10s is now a 9 and the ones is now a 10. 10-9 is 1 Move on to the 10s slot, it was 0, then 10, and is now 9, 9-9 is 0 Move on to the 100s slot, it was 0, then 10, and is now 9, 9-9 is 0 Move on to the 1000s slot, it was 3, now is 2, and 2-2 -s 0
Instead, put this on a number line, and you see instantly that they are only 1 apart.
Again, THIS IS A SILLY EXAMPLE, an extreme example, just like they are showing extreme examples in their argument against.
But please, if you take nothing else away from this thread, please know this is NOT an argument against Common Core. This is an argument against Singapore math. And schools are teaching Singapore math with or without Common Core.
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