OK, i was wrong: the GOP folded on the debt ceiling

[djAdvocate]

www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/11/debt-ceiling-republicans-boehner/5390293/

i really thought they would fight this.  they lost by 11 votes.

opinions?  it looks like this battle is over until November.  amazing.

my opinion = the GOP's stock just went up, along with their election chances.

[Shooby]

The GOp folds on everything. They suck.

[grits]

It really doesn't matter to me as to whether or not they caved. I don't worship a political party like a lot of peeps do. I do think it is sad that nobody in this country has the guts to stop spending more than we raise in revenue. People keep kicking the can down the road, and some terrible day it is going to hit the fan.

[EVT1]

Election year- the cooler heads prevailed.  If the tea party doesn't like it then take over the GOP- long list of people to go after and I am sure anyone that voted for this is a target.  Have at it.  How dare the government pay its debts without a round of extortion.

[grits]

How dare the government continue to mortgage the country without any consideration for future generations. We do not own the earth. We borrow it from our grandchildren.

[EVT1]

Feb 12, 2014 0:58:47 GMT -5 grits said:

It really doesn't matter to me as to whether or not they caved. I don't worship a political party like a lot of peeps do. I do think it is sad that nobody in this country has the guts to stop spending more than we raise in revenue. People keep kicking the can down the road, and some terrible day it is going to hit the fan.

That's the real issue- threatening to not pay our debts is pretty much stupid and costly.  Putting people in fear of that is also stupid.  Using it as a hostage in a negotiation is a low blow.  The last thing the GOP wants is some debt fight fresh in the minds of voters- and on that note they better shut down their idiots on social issues as well.  I hope they don't- of course no secret where I stand on things   I hope the GOP splits- and it might- and in that might give me a reason to vote for them again- until then forget it.

[grits]

As I stated, I don't worship a party. I don't like either one of them. Neither side is willing to fix this mess.

The issue for a lot isn't the government not paying the debts it is the government continuing to make more debts. Stop spending money we don't have. Put people on the dole out there doing volunteer work to help out struggling states, counties, cities, and school systems.  Don't let anybody slide just because they can pop out a baby.  Put some teeth into fraud enforcement on all levels, and stop making trade agreements that hurt our economy.  

[EVT1]

Feb 12, 2014 1:07:54 GMT -5 grits said:

How dare the government continue to mortgage the country without any consideration for future generations. We do not own the earth. We borrow it from our grandchildren.

I agree with you- but we cannot just screw around with what is already owed.  If you were a spendthrift with umpteen thousands in credit card debt you don't just stop paying or pay late and expect no consequences. 

What you do if you are responsible is start spending less than you make and pay off debt.  We can get there- the deficit is dropping FAST.  Just don't elect another 'fiscal conservative' republican that turns a budget surplus into massive debt. Look at any chart- GOP administrations spend like drunken sailors.  

 

[EVT1]

Feb 12, 2014 1:21:57 GMT -5 grits said:

As I stated, I don't worship a party. I don't like either one of them. Neither side is willing to fix this mess.

The issue for a lot isn't the government not paying the debts it is the government continuing to make more debts. Stop spending money we don't have. Put people on the dole out there doing volunteer work to help out struggling states, counties, cities, and school systems.  Don't let anybody slide just because they can pop out a baby.  Put some teeth into fraud enforcement on all levels, and stop making trade agreements that hurt our economy.  

I said it many times- the government should be the employer of last resort- plenty of work to be done.  Can't find a job or can't keep one- well- here ya go- the government will give you a full time job at a decent wage to help fix this effed up infrastructure- can't make it to work- well there goes your check. 

[grits]

They all spend like drunken sailors. A decreasing deficit is not a balanced budget, and payments being made to reduce the national debt. 

In the 1990's the budget surplus was in part a large social security fund surplus, It was deposited into the general treasury.  The Republicans voted to spend it, and Slick Willy was all to glad to join the wild party.

[grits]

Feb 12, 2014 1:38:28 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Feb 12, 2014 1:21:57 GMT -5 grits said:

As I stated, I don't worship a party. I don't like either one of them. Neither side is willing to fix this mess.

The issue for a lot isn't the government not paying the debts it is the government continuing to make more debts. Stop spending money we don't have. Put people on the dole out there doing volunteer work to help out struggling states, counties, cities, and school systems.  Don't let anybody slide just because they can pop out a baby.  Put some teeth into fraud enforcement on all levels, and stop making trade agreements that hurt our economy.  

I said it many times- the government should be the employer of last resort- plenty of work to be done.  Can't find a job or can't keep one- well- here ya go- the government will give you a full time job at a decent wage to help fix this effed up infrastructure- can't make it to work- well there goes your check. 

Sounds great but nobody is willing to put it into practice. They count on the dole riders as a guaranteed vote.

[EVT1]

Feb 12, 2014 1:39:23 GMT -5 grits said:

They all spend like drunken sailors. A decreasing deficit is not a balanced budget, and payments being made to reduce the national debt. 

In the 1990's the budget surplus was in part a large social security fund surplus, It was deposited into the general treasury.  The Republicans voted to spend it, and Slick Willy was all to glad to join the wild party.

And you are correct- we can reduce the deficit all day and the national debt will continue to rise.

And argued to hell and back was the 'surplus' Clinton left and the following round of tax cuts by Bush that fucked the economy and ran up the debt and deficit- not to mention Medicare part D, and the war in Iraq.

[marvholly]

Personally, I am NOT surprised. As I recall, after the backlash from the fall shutdown the speaker PROMISED a clean debt ceiling bill. I do hope their stock & election chances are NOT up. There are still a BUNCH of social issues that I do NOT agree w/them on.

I DO agree that people getting support of gov programs (food stamps, housing assistance…….) should be required to volunteer at schools, food pantries, hospitals, whatever and/or attend classes to increase their skills and possibly, eventually get a ‘real’ job.

[rockon]

Compromising on principle is a very bad thing and anyone supporting this increase without strings attached is on the same level as any other child molestor....you are screwing our children.
Sorry for the tough talk but there is just no excuse for supporting any individual or politician from any party who supports the continued increase of our national debt.

[Shooby]

Stand up and fight for what is right, even if you go down in flames. To compromise, compromise is the road to Perdition. And, the sooner John McCain and Graham and their ilk are gone, the better.

[Shooby]

Never doubt that a small band of committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that has.

[busymom]

In our community, the GOP took a lot of heat for the last shutdown. I think they worried it might cost them votes this Fall if it happened again.

[billisonboard]

Feb 12, 2014 6:06:19 GMT -5 marvholly said:

...

I DO agree that people getting support of gov programs (food stamps, housing assistance…….) should be required to volunteer at schools, food pantries, hospitals, whatever and/or attend classes to increase their skills and possibly, eventually get a ‘real’ job.

Do you realize how disruptive such volunteers are to the educational process?

[Shooby]

How about we build govt dormitories with govt cafeterias and a govt bus? If you want to live there, you get your dorm room and you can eat in the cafeteria or not eat. And, you have to work in it and clean and maintain the facilities. A bus will drive you to town daily so you can get a job. And, no need for spending money. If you don't like it, then leave and go take care of yourself.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 1:02:58 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Election year- the cooler heads prevailed.  If the tea party doesn't like it then take over the GOP- long list of people to go after and I am sure anyone that voted for this is a target.  Have at it.  How dare the government pay its debts without a round of extortion.

this was a signal from GOP leadership to the rank and file: we tried your way, and it sucks.  Boehner will be hated for it, but he did the right thing for his party and for his country.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 1:39:23 GMT -5 grits said:

They all spend like drunken sailors. A decreasing deficit is not a balanced budget, and payments being made to reduce the national debt. 

In the 1990's the budget surplus was in part a large social security fund surplus, It was deposited into the general treasury.  The Republicans voted to spend it, and Slick Willy was all to glad to join the wild party.

1) there was no budget surplus in the 90's
2) the deficit is now less than it was under Reagan on a relative basis
3) blaming Clinton for this seems really puzzling to me.

i am puzzled about why there is so much pessimism about the deficit.  WHY does everyone think it is out of control?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 2:13:41 GMT -5 EVT1 said:

Feb 12, 2014 1:39:23 GMT -5 grits said:

They all spend like drunken sailors. A decreasing deficit is not a balanced budget, and payments being made to reduce the national debt. 

In the 1990's the budget surplus was in part a large social security fund surplus, It was deposited into the general treasury.  The Republicans voted to spend it, and Slick Willy was all to glad to join the wild party.

And you are correct- we can reduce the deficit all day and the national debt will continue to rise.

And argued to hell and back was the 'surplus' Clinton left and the following round of tax cuts by Bush that fucked the economy and ran up the debt and deficit- not to mention Medicare part D, and the war in Iraq.

bingo.  blaming Clinton for Bush's bad work is both surprising and disingenuous.  without El Peor, we would have a managable problem, now:

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 8:50:03 GMT -5 rockon said:

Compromising on principle is a very bad thing and anyone supporting this increase without strings attached is on the same level as any other child molestor....you are screwing our children.
Sorry for the tough talk but there is just no excuse for supporting any individual or politician from any party who supports the continued increase of our national debt.

no.  funding the obligations you already committed to is not akin to child molesting.  it is akin to paying your bills.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 12, 2014 11:33:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 12, 2014 1:39:23 GMT -5 grits said:

They all spend like drunken sailors. A decreasing deficit is not a balanced budget, and payments being made to reduce the national debt. 

In the 1990's the budget surplus was in part a large social security fund surplus, It was deposited into the general treasury.  The Republicans voted to spend it, and Slick Willy was all to glad to join the wild party.

1) there was no budget surplus in the 90's
2) the deficit is now less than it was under Reagan on a relative basis
3) blaming Clinton for this seems really puzzling to me.

i am puzzled about why there is so much pessimism about the deficit.  WHY does everyone think it is out of control?

Because your exploding debts will surely crush your country before the end of the decade? Nothing big.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 10:10:35 GMT -5 busymom said:

In our community, the GOP took a lot of heat for the last shutdown. I think they worried it might cost them votes this Fall if it happened again.

there is no doubt whatsoever that it would have.  none.  now, they have a chance of winning both branches, which is what this is about.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 11:39:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 12, 2014 11:33:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

1) there was no budget surplus in the 90's
2) the deficit is now less than it was under Reagan on a relative basis
3) blaming Clinton for this seems really puzzling to me.

i am puzzled about why there is so much pessimism about the deficit.  WHY does everyone think it is out of control?

Because your exploding debts will surely crush your country before the end of the decade? Nothing big.

there is no evidence that this is true at all.  Japan surpassed 100% debt to GDP (15) years ago.  their debt -vs- GDP has DOUBLED since then.  has their economy crashed?  our debt to GDP surpassed 100% during WW2.  the post WW2 economic boom raised the fortunes of 100M Americans, and created unparalleled prosperity.

your cynicism in the face of history (and even present fact) is puzzling.

edit: oh, just to "disambiguate", i am not suggesting that deficits are good.  i am not suggesting that they are not a problem.  i am suggesting that your analysis that this is a crisis is totally unhinged.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 11:39:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 12, 2014 11:33:16 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

1) there was no budget surplus in the 90's
2) the deficit is now less than it was under Reagan on a relative basis
3) blaming Clinton for this seems really puzzling to me.

i am puzzled about why there is so much pessimism about the deficit.  WHY does everyone think it is out of control?

Because your exploding debts will surely crush your country before the end of the decade? Nothing big.

of course this doesn't look healthy.  but is it fatal?  i think it quite doubtful.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 12, 2014 11:47:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Feb 12, 2014 11:39:43 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Because your exploding debts will surely crush your country before the end of the decade? Nothing big.

of course this doesn't look healthy.  but is it fatal?  i think it quite doubtful.

Define "fatal".

Will the US end up a smoking wreck with no human life to be found? Probably not.

Will the quality of life for the vast majority of Americans, most especially the elderly, the poor, and the infirm see a drastic plunge in the near future? Absolutely.

Will the plunge foment an unprecedented degree of civil unrest, leading to crime, militias, military action against civilians, and credible threats of secession, all leading to further deterioration? Absolutely. The extent is currently the great unknown.

But I've said all of this before, and I've rattled off my litany of concerns many times. You strike me as a "seeing is believing" kind of guy. You waited around to see what the GOP would do on the debt ceiling, and you saw. We're waiting around to see whether California has a deficit for FY2014, and we'll see. We'll wait around to see if the projections above come to pass, and we'll see. Why debate it if we're deeply convicted of our current views?

[djAdvocate]

Feb 12, 2014 12:08:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 12, 2014 11:47:46 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

of course this doesn't look healthy.  but is it fatal?  i think it quite doubtful.

Define "fatal".

Will the US end up a smoking wreck with no human life to be found? Probably not.

Will the quality of life for the vast majority of Americans, most especially the elderly, the poor, and the infirm see a drastic plunge in the near future? Absolutely.

doubtful, imo.  but i am curious as to why you think so.

Will the plunge foment an unprecedented degree of civil unrest, leading to crime, militias, military action against civilians, and credible threats of secession, all leading to further deterioration? Absolutely. The extent is currently the great unknown.

doubtful, again.  but i am sure that your answer to my first doubt will answer my second.

But I've said all of this before, and I've rattled off my litany of concerns many times. You strike me as a "seeing is believing" kind of guy.

no, not really.  i believe in bacteria, though i have never seen it.  i believe in Newtonian motion of the planets, though it is very difficult to observe.  i believe in the vacuum of space, tho i have never witnessed it.  and i believe in predictive data.  what is yours?

You waited around to see what the GOP would do on the debt ceiling, and you saw.

what does that have to do with anything?  i predicted that they would battle this one out, then fold.  they didn't even battle.

We're waiting around to see whether California has a deficit for FY2014, and we'll see.

wrong again.  YOU are waiting.  i was convinced it was likely it would not, based on DATA, or i would never have made the bet.

We'll wait around to see if the projections above come to pass, and we'll see. Why debate it if we're deeply convicted of our current views?

i am not debating a damned thing.  i am asking you what basis you have for your views.  this is generally the case, by the way.  i figure that people are rational and they have their reasons for believing things.  and, this is generally correct.  unfortunately, they believe a lot of things, to paraphrase Reagan, that simply are not true.

[billisonboard]

Feb 12, 2014 12:08:34 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

...
Will the quality of life for the vast majority of Americans, most especially the elderly, the poor, and the infirm see a drastic plunge in the near future? Absolutely.

Will the plunge foment an unprecedented degree of civil unrest, leading to crime, militias, military action against civilians, and credible threats of secession, all leading to further deterioration? Absolutely. The extent is currently the great unknown.

...

How will this be different than what would happen with serious budget cuts and/or large tax increases?