Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 24, 2014 9:56:36 GMT -5
My great-aunt was the oldest girl of 11 kids. She and my uncle basically raised the younger ones (her dad died when the youngest was just a few months old and the mom had to work to feed the family). Neither she nor her brother ever married or had kids of their own. When I once asked her why she told me she already raised one family and had no desire to do it again. Our former neighbors had no kids. Found out she was the oldest of 11. Said she already raised enough. What a terrible thing to do to your child. I would point out that modern forms of birth control wasn't available until the BC pill came out in the 60's. Generally, having a large family was not really a concious choice. It was more a lack of access to effective birth control.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 10:19:26 GMT -5
Condoms were definitely around in the 60s. So was the concept of... um... doing other things besides traditional sex.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 11:22:05 GMT -5
My parents were die-hard Catholics. Until they had 5 kids in 7 years. They're still Catholic. But Mom hasn't taken communion since she had her IUD put in. ETA: We ended up with my brother because her IUD was recalled in 1980 and apparently they couldn't control themselves until she had a new one inserted.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jan 24, 2014 11:45:09 GMT -5
jenny, Yes, condoms were around in the 60's. They were behind the counter and you had to ask for them. And if you were young and unmarried, you'd have to have been very brash and shameless to ask for them. The event of the BC pill gave women a level of control that was unprecendented.
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emma1420
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Post by emma1420 on Jan 24, 2014 12:18:42 GMT -5
This guy sounds like he's stretching the truth. I believe he believes he's telling the truth, but like many parents who see themselves as the reason that their kids aren't in jail or drug addicts it's not only their parenting that contributes to their kids being functional members of society. There seems to be very little credit for the fact that he got lucky to have 12 healthy intelligent kids, and that not everyone gets blessed that way.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Jan 24, 2014 13:06:15 GMT -5
I call BS on the taking every single AP course the HS had unless it was a school with only 4 offered. My DD's school you can take 27. the ones I remember are 2 English, US 1 & 2, Physics, Chem, Bio, Calc 1 & 2, Spanish, French, Stats, Psychology, Studio Art, Music and a bunch more that my brain blocked out. There is just no way to take all the ones I did remember even if there weren't any others. There are too many to not run at the same time for one thing. For another classes like French and Spanish require the student take the first 4 years before. Even without all this guys nonsense there just isn't enough time in the day to do that. Even with all the restrictions most AP classes are full. So for him to demand his kid be put in a class they aren't qualified to take, say AP spanish when they never took Spanish before, another kid who was qualified to be there would have to be not allowed to take it. IMO that is just wrong.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 24, 2014 13:15:20 GMT -5
I would kill (or at least maim) for 27 AP courses. The most we can get around here is 16 or 18.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 24, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -5
I would kill (or at least maim) for 27 AP courses. The most we can get around here is 16 or 18. My son's school has several dozen at least, but like beachbum says, many of them are in competing subjects so it's not like a student can take them all. Example - there are 4 different AP languages, including Chinese. Depending on what's offered, from a practical standpoint your students can get almost as much value from the 16 or 18 if they're in widespread subjects. Maybe the school only offers one AP language, but if you know what that is and it's one your student is OK with, you can just make sure to take the prerequisites in that language so you're ready for that one AP language, for example.
Also, some of the APs seemed a little esoteric, so wouldn't appeal to many students. Yes, it's nice to have the choice, but hopefully it's the less common ones that aren't available at your school. With 16-18, that's still a good number.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2014 13:24:32 GMT -5
I would kill (or at least maim) for 27 AP courses. The most we can get around here is 16 or 18. Our school has a whopping 8.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jan 24, 2014 13:33:50 GMT -5
The school district I live in does not offer AP courses. Which is why my kids are currently in private school.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jan 24, 2014 13:40:30 GMT -5
I always found it interesting when I'd meet someone who was a freshman by time, but a junior by credit. One can certainly save quite a bit on college costs by coming in effectively with a year or two under one's belt.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jan 24, 2014 14:07:12 GMT -5
Which is why I'm so focused on AP courses. I've seen kids shave a year or more off their tuition that way.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 24, 2014 14:12:05 GMT -5
AP is great and I was one of those that saved lots of money by not having to take those courses in college, but there may be other ways to do that. Does your community college offer any dual enrollment classes?
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jan 24, 2014 15:42:13 GMT -5
The "if they didn't eat it, it would be waiting for them later" thing is what my Dad tells me he grew up with. I see the value in teaching people not to waste things, and that not every meal is going to be exactly what they want. I also see the value of making a power play here and teaching them who is in charge. I wonder if any of their kids were headstrong and were willing to starve until the next meal, just to prove that they wouldn't be "bullied" into eating something they didn't want.
It sure makes a good article to prance around and say self righteous stuff like "we didn't give them anything except information." Guess nothing bad ever happened. What if the kid had put that oil in the gas tank instead of in the radiator and not said anything. Dad goes to start his car and KA-BOOM. Oh, we won't get mad.
I do see the value in not just handing kids stuff. Certainly making them earn it. Sink or swim can work. 11 months and the kid figured out how to restore a classic mustang. Cars weren't computers back then; so I guess its possible.
ETA: yeah, its easy to be cool as a cucumber when the consequences of the teaching moment aren't "that bad".
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jan 24, 2014 15:53:22 GMT -5
...:::"Apochryphal recall, I would say. He's really either exaggerating, or was very out of touch with the realities of life in his family. He may view himself as the Ultimate Patriarch. He may be nuts.":::...
Or he wasn't home that often. A high position at a government-bleeding defense contractor requires more than a few late nights.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 24, 2014 16:55:00 GMT -5
He should have been home less often. That many children is disgusting. Looks like a lot of family love going on there. No one comes together long enough for a group photo? I'd live to hear the kids point of view. The wife/incubator lost her point of view about 8 kids ago, along with her mind.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 24, 2014 16:55:18 GMT -5
Love to hear.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jan 24, 2014 18:23:02 GMT -5
I wonder what his work buddies thought. I'm betting there was some "king of the castle" image he was trying to project.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jan 24, 2014 18:37:27 GMT -5
There are 17 of them. My mom had 5 and sometimes we'll go years between all getting together. My brother has been stationed in Hawaii for the last few years, so it's tough for him to make it back to family gatherings. I live in California. Before that I was stationed out of state.
With 15 college educated adults, I doubt they're all still living in the same home town they grew up in. At least a third of them probably live out of state. They've got their spouses family to coordinate events with as well.
It doesn't seem that weird that they've gone awhile without all of them getting together. I'm sure most of them make it to most family gatherings.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 24, 2014 18:58:19 GMT -5
It does seem weird that no one interviewed them. Another point of view not welcome? I'd love to know their family sizes.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Jan 24, 2014 19:17:01 GMT -5
This makes me wonder how the Duggar kids are going to live once they are all grown up. I know the oldest already has a kid or two, but he was a male. I wouldnt be surprised if some of the older females never have children simply because they feel they have already raised a family.
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ambellamy
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Post by ambellamy on Jan 24, 2014 21:49:39 GMT -5
Also, I think (but don't know, this is only based on hints from friends) that if your family is Mormon and has been active members of your church, including paying tithes, there is a lot of financial help available for college.
Anyone know about this one way or another?
My Mormon friends in Phoenix often hinted delicately that there's a wide financial support net within the church, but it wasn't said in a way that invited further questions and I couldn't think of a non-rude way to ask. But many of them were also from very large families without princely incomes and they all went to college and bought homes upon graduation, etc. I'm Mormon... so is my hubby (i'm a convert, he was raised in the church). Not all Mormon families were how you described them in your earlier posts. I'm sure some are, but even MORE non-mormon families have fathers who over dominate and force their wives into submission... My mom in particular was not affiliated with any religion and suffered much abuse from my dad. I think every marriage is different and unfortunately the few outliers have been marked as the "norm." For my husband and I, we make decisions together. My husband normally asks me what I think is best and does that... especially when it comes to our finances and any future planning stuff because i'm our breadwinner. We don't have kids yet, but if we can swing it, hubs is going to be a stay at home dad. As for The Church and finances, the Church has a wide range of programs and activities that are free and run by volunteers within the church community. Often times local moms will get together in groups and plan their own in home "preschools," nannying, and weekly meet ups at parks and pools, especially in the summer (Non members are welcome to check out the programs and activities... just grab a missionary or the bishop and he'll put you in touch with someone). As for financial help with education, the church has a program to help people finish/start their degrees when traditional college isn't the best option. They meet the first year in local group meetings and take a couple classes. The workshops have tutors who help you navigate what education looks like and are there to help assist people (and you don't pay for the tutors, just the small class tuition). If you score high enough on those classes, you can start taking courses online in the field you want. You generally take 2 classes at a time and pace them at your own speed. Finish one and you start the next one the next day. It's only for some SPECIFIC fields, but in the program you can get an AA or a BA, and its accredited though BYU-Idaho. It's a greatly reduced tuition, aimed at individuals who wouldn't get a degree without it. The church has the program because they believe in education and life long learning. It's a "members only" program though.
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milee
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Post by milee on Jan 25, 2014 7:47:43 GMT -5
Thanks for explaining and clarifying, Amy.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 25, 2014 10:34:35 GMT -5
Interesting perspective from these parents who never paid for any of their kids' colleges, weddings or houses. It seems a little utopic, but I like some of the practices: qz.com/165716/how-i-made-sure-all-12-of-my-kids-could-pay-for-college-themselves/I know me and my siblings would have thrown a fit if we had to get up every morning at 5 to do chores before school. I also doubt I would have built my computer or car, but who knows. Did they get lucky with their kids or are they really just that good? It's called setting expectations. My son is 10 and he knows his options at 18: 1. Enrolled 2. Enlisted 3. Employed (and paying rent) 4. Evicted And no, his mother and I are not making provisions to pay for his college, or his younger sister's college. We may, at our option (and we won't even broach this as a possibility) choose to surprise them with a gift to cover part or all of college once they've established a track record, selected a major, and perform well. Parents were never an option for me- I enlisted.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jan 25, 2014 10:37:22 GMT -5
there was probably little to no extracurriculars. You can't really have Bobby, Suzy, and Mikey doing soccer/softball/whatever if they are essentially raising their younger siblings... I would have hated to be an older child in a huge family - it seems like you basically have no childhood. Says they were required one sport and one club. Hell, when I did basketball that was at least 3 nights a week between games/practice. Sometimes more. When I did plays it started out 3 nights a week until the last two weeks or so it was every night M-F and then the last week we were there from when school let out til 11pm with a break for dinner.
Don't see how 12 kids could do that and always have dinner at 530, and study from 6-8.
Um, yeah that would be tricky for us with just one kid in sports- his basketball program (which is through a local church- so I guess it counts as religion, too?) has practice from 5:15 - 6:00 every Thursday- not including the transportation.
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Hypersion
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Post by Hypersion on Jan 26, 2014 1:21:32 GMT -5
I agree that learning some handy man and mechanic skills are useful but I don't believe for one second that all 12 kids built their own hot rods.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 26, 2014 6:45:17 GMT -5
That man is so lying through his teeth. Sometimes reporters ought to investigate before just publishing drivel. How much more interesting would it have been to see his tax returns and how much he got back each year and how his kids are now doing and the size of their families.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Jan 26, 2014 8:35:35 GMT -5
I don't think that the stories about the Mormon church are the exception rather than the rule. As its been told to me by friends who moved to UT, the church has incredible resources, a lot of control, and it is tough for outsiders to make it there. The culture is different than other parts of the US. I'm sure everyone's experience is different; I just don't think that the stories about patriarchal families and reach of the church are rare.
Dark has a point that it would be very hard to get every single family member together at once. I'm sure that would require years of advance planning and then still have someone have to duck out. The article may have unintentionally made it sound worse than it is.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 26, 2014 8:45:35 GMT -5
If I had been stupid enough to marry someone like this, I'd be sneaking bc.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2014 10:58:07 GMT -5
I just think the article is kind of misleading. I want to know about the getting them through college part. Ok, so they didn't pay for 12 kids to go to school. Big deal. My parents didn't pay for me to go to school and I paid my way through and graduated. My husband's family had 7 kids, and they got nothing growing up. They barely bothered to take the time to feed them or take them to school. Believe me, there would be no "good parenting" articles written about them. Five of them have degrees and two have advanced degrees.
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