Another family situation...$30K

[swamp]

I've learned my lesson about telling DH to "do whatever you think is right."

I've accumulated a Disney trip, a Niagara Falls trip, a 2103 Chevy Silverado, and a John Deere tractor that way.

[swasat]

If you really consider the money as OUR money, then you should speak up when asked for opinions. I applaud you in-laws that they wanted you to be a part of the discussion. They are right, its a combined household so you have as much of a right to have a say in the matter.

i am still curious.......did your husband discuss with you before he decided to give them the $30K? Or was it a surprise to you?

if you agreed with him, and if you refused to give your opinion when asked, why the resentment? 

I personally think the resentment is for the acknowledgment that you never got for helping your husbandin the past, and not for this 30K. Duke it out in the open and talk to him. 

[gooddecisions]

I have said it, many, many times. There is nothing I've written here that I haven't said to him in more ways than I can count. He just doesn't agree unlike all us like-minded YM people. So, I thought I'd air my grievances to my people who get it, especially since this fresh situation just happened.

It's a little awkward getting in the middle of him and his parents and I'd rather keep the peace when it comes to this specific pay-back situation. If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

It's a little awkward getting in the middle of him and his parents and I'd rather keep the peace when it comes to this specific pay-back situation

So instead of speaking up when they invited you to and from what it sounds like would have stood 100% behind you if you'd said no you're going to passively aggressively talk about it behind DH's back.  And that is somehow going to make things better?

That's not really "staying out of the middle".  That's putting yourself exactly in the middle.

[milee]

Dec 13, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

This is passive aggressive BS. If you have a problem, find a constructive way to discuss that with your DH first and then, maybe, your in laws. If you can't think of a constructive way to discuss it then you need to do whatever work you need to do to get over it because taking little potshots (aka - tossing in a grenade and then running like hell) is not helpful. Instead of solving anything, you're causing a problem through your inaction and them blaming them for it. 

[justme]

Dec 13, 2013 11:51:56 GMT -5 swamp said:

I've learned my lesson about telling DH to "do whatever you think is right."

I've accumulated a Disney trip, a Niagara Falls trip, a 2103 Chevy Silverado, and a John Deere tractor that way.

At least it wasn't two trips to Disney!

[justme]

Dec 13, 2013 12:01:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 13, 2013 10:41:02 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

Probably, I think the past 3 years of cash-flow positive rent has made him forget about how much that house cost him the previous years. Or maybe he doesn't think about it because I was the one covering our expenses while he sat on two cashflow negative properties.

Maybe I'm missing some background info. Was he not working, or didn't make enough yo pay these bills?

From what I've gathered, he was paying for the house grandpa was in and renting out his condo to a friend, but the friend wasn't paying enough to make it cash-flow positive so he was paying the left over amount for that. So after paying for grandpa and friend's living expenses he either didn't have money to give to good or just decided not too. And it sounds from her posts that in conversation he counts the payments to the house and condo others were living in as his contribution to their living expenses.

[gooddecisions]

Dec 13, 2013 12:01:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Dec 13, 2013 10:41:02 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

Probably, I think the past 3 years of cash-flow positive rent has made him forget about how much that house cost him the previous years. Or maybe he doesn't think about it because I was the one covering our expenses while he sat on two cashflow negative properties.

Maybe I'm missing some background info. Was he not working, or didn't make enough yo pay these bills?

No, he has always made a lot more than I have and has never been unemployed. He just considered the expenses I paid at my house, mine while he handled the expenses at his rentals. He argued that I would have them regardless of whether he was there and feels that way to this day. I disagree and provided the many reasons why that argument doesn't hold water. It's all ancient history. We're in a new house under both our names, where he pays all the bills and put up the entire $150K down payment. My income goes to daycare, retirement and investments.

[Deleted]

"So your DH thinks that you did not support him during those 6 years? Did he pay you any living expenses? Covered ANY bills? Bought groceries and stuff? Spoiled you in any way?"

I am curious about the answer to these too. Ok maybe he didn't need to pay exactly half of your mortgage but he should have split electric, food, etc. If he was paying for these at 2 other properties, that was not your fault, it was his choice.

You two need to get to the bottom of all of these financial issues. Your DH doesn't seem to have any issues from his perspective, why would he? he lived with you for free, now he is doing what he wants to and asked you just out of courtesy in front of his parents (if I understood correctly). You, however, have a lot of resentment and BELIEVE ME, your resentment will get worse with every little event. So one way or the other, you guys need to work this out. I don't believe in keeping my mouth shut just to keep the peace for something that causes me major resentment.

[973beachbum]

Dec 13, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

I have said it, many, many times. There is nothing I've written here that I haven't said to him in more ways than I can count. He just doesn't agree unlike all us like-minded YM people. So, I thought I'd air my grievances to my people who get it, especially since this fresh situation just happened.

It's a little awkward getting in the middle of him and his parents and I'd rather keep the peace when it comes to this specific pay-back situation. If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

Which is why we said you need to have this discussion with a professional counseler.  A disinterested third party will be an amazing amount of help in the two of you actually hearing and understanding the other's point of veiw and coming up with a real agreement going forward.

It sounds like you talk and he ignores you then says what he was going to do all along in public knowing you would  never open you mouth in front of others.  Then because you are mad at that you say things little by little to leak out your resentment.

That few hundred for a marriage counseling would be money well spent IMO. 

[Deleted]

"He argued that I would have them regardless of whether he was there and feels that way to this day. "

That may be true, you would have most of the same bills regardless of whether he was there or not. But that does not mean he didn't need to contribute! That is called mooching off someone. So if you two were to get a divorce, he will have all this property/money PRIOR to the marriage, in reality you contributed a lot to him getting them!

[Deleted]

let it go. You are both obviously good with money. Let him treat is parents to a gift without harping on him about it.

[zibazinski]

Unfortunately, you didn't cover this when he moved in with you. Now it's water under the bridge except to you. Yes, he should have helped with expenses but some people just don't think that way. Others do. You would never mooch. He would. He doesn't see it as mooching but you do. Now his parents feel, it seems to you, like moochers, too. I can see your point but I can also see where they and he cannot. I'm trying very hard to accept this with DF as well. It isn't easy for me at all but I have to let it go or I will never find peace in this relationship. Try very hard to focus on his good qualities and vent to us, like I do, when his bad outweighs his good. We all have these days!

[gooddecisions]

Dec 13, 2013 12:38:03 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Unfortunately, you didn't cover this when he moved in with you. Now it's water under the bridge except to you. Yes, he should have helped with expenses but some people just don't think that way. Others do. You would never mooch. He would. He doesn't see it as mooching but you do. Now his parents feel, it seems to you, like moochers, too. I can see your point but I can also see where they and he cannot. I'm trying very hard to accept this with DF as well. It isn't easy for me at all but I have to let it go or I will never find peace in this relationship. Try very hard to focus on his good qualities and vent to us, like I do, when his bad outweighs his good. We all have these days!

Thank you for that. It's nice see the softer side of zib.

[zibazinski]

Yak, I'm losing my edge!

[raeoflyte]

Dec 13, 2013 12:10:25 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

Dec 13, 2013 12:01:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Maybe I'm missing some background info. Was he not working, or didn't make enough yo pay these bills?

No, he has always made a lot more than I have and has never been unemployed. He just considered the expenses I paid at my house, mine while he handled the expenses at his rentals. He argued that I would have them regardless of whether he was there and feels that way to this day. I disagree and provided the many reasons why that argument doesn't hold water. It's all ancient history. We're in a new house under both our names, where he pays all the bills and put up the entire $150K down payment. My income goes to daycare, retirement and investments.

With the bolded part in mind-- it sounds like you are able to even out the financial disparity from when he lived with you and wasn't contributing.  Meaning, that if he put the $150 dp on the house because of all the money he saved while living rent free and your income is now going 2/3rds to investments that in (I'm guessing here) 10 years you're both on equal footing again.  Is that correct?  How does your budget change when you have 2 kids in daycare?  

I think that the issue here is more about you feeling heard and your opinion being valued even if he doesn't 100% agree with it, and less about the money. 

If the house his grandfather lived in has an overall positive cash flow for the next 20 years, I'm guessing you'll both feel like it was a good investment even when it was so expensive in the beginning. 

What would be the purpose of getting your MIL to acknowledge that your dh was helping more than he was "being helped"?  I'm guessing your dh doesn't rely on his parents for any investment advice at this point so that isn't really a risk.  I think this too is more about you being heard, than about the money, and I'd really try not to bring any of this up to his mom.  

[Abby Normal]

Dec 13, 2013 12:21:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

let it go. You are both obviously good with money. Let him treat is parents to a gift without harping on him about it.

I agree unless you are going to be resentful.  If you can't fully let it go, then you need to speak up.  

The next time they ask your opinion, you could simply say " It's hard for me to consider it help to DH, when I know how much it cost DH to keep gramps in the house.  I consider it as helping gramps, not DH.  But DH and I disagree on this, and I have told him the decision is his. If he feels he needs to consider the 30K a loan, and to repay it, that is his decision."

[Value Buy]

Sounds like everyone involved is financially sound.

Regarding the opening message:

I wonder why you state the parents decided the youngest son should do this for his grandfather?

I wonder why his father did not do it for his father.

Obviously, if they had $30,000 they could afford a rental for him at the beginning, or even the down payment, but for some reason they did not want to get stuck with the monthly payments if they bought the house.

In any event, I would think when his parent's pass on, he should be getting most of it back through an inheritance, unless they are leaving everything to the church.

In any event, your husband should have discussed this payment with you well before he gave it to his parents.

[Abby Normal]

I suspect that the parents were hoping the youngest son would one day move in. 

[gooddecisions]

Dec 13, 2013 13:01:55 GMT -5 Abby Normal said:

Dec 13, 2013 12:21:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

let it go. You are both obviously good with money. Let him treat is parents to a gift without harping on him about it.

I agree unless you are going to be resentful.  If you can't fully let it go, then you need to speak up.  

The next time they ask your opinion, you could simply say " It's hard for me to consider it help to DH, when I know how much it cost DH to keep gramps in the house.  I consider it as helping gramps, not DH.  But DH and I disagree on this, and I have told him the decision is his. If he feels he needs to consider the 30K a loan, and to repay it, that is his decision."

If I said anything at all, that's exactly the sentiment I was thinking. I don't want to toss a grenade, but his parents are trying to be fair with all 5 of their children and should know that this was not really the "help" they thought it was. Or maybe they don't need to know that.

My husband never considered that down payment and house purchase as helping him. When his mom told me that was their help to him and I later told him, he was floored as he had also considered him the one helping them by helping his granddad out all those years. But, since the rent is cash-flow positive, he's had a change of heart.

[HoneyBBQ]

To answer the original question:
While it is unclear to me what the agreed upon circumstances were for the 30k (loan, gift, partnership), it sounds to me like your husband owes them the money. Your husband has the asset and now it is cash flow positive. Sounds like a great deal to me that he was able to 'buy' a rental property at such a young age. So I would think washing your hands of the investment and making it fully "yours" would be the appropriate action.

If it makes you terribly angry/resentful - sell the house, return the 27k with the proceeds, pocket the rest, and move on.

However, as many have pointed out, I would completely freak out if a) we had 3000$ in cash in my house and b) it got handed to someone else without discussing it with me. You guys definitely need to improve your communication regarding your financial matters.

[cktc]

I think you are involving too many issues that are not related. If you wanted your husband to contribute to your household while you were dating, you should have required it while you were dating. You could have asked him to pay the electric bill, or asked him to move out. This isn’t something you can collect on retroactively.

Since you didn’t require him to contribute, it was not your business that he chose to support his grandfather. You were just dating, your money was separate, and he was free to do with his as he pleased.

Your opinion of his parents’ financial savvy is not relevant.

His decision to purchase a home in his youth that wasn’t immediately profitable is in the past. Focus on its future value to you as a couple.

Now you are married and he is claiming individual debt on an individual asset that he intends to pay with marital money. That is something to discuss, but leave the other stuff out if you hope to get anywhere. Perhaps you can add your name to the title since you are now essentially purchasing a share of the down payment.

Protect yourself and be involved in financial decisions as they are happening. It is your responsibility to look out for your interests and come up with a solution that works for both of you.

[NomoreDramaQ1015]

I was thinking. I don't want to toss a grenade, but his parents are trying to be fair with all 5 of their children and should know that this was not really the "help" they thought it was. Or maybe they don't need to know that

They really don't.  Unless they have a time machine they can't change the past.  All you're going to do is make them feel bad and have resolved nothing.   Plus you'll create a whole bunch of new issues once your DH gets wind of what happened because this kind of passive aggressive BS rarely stays on the down low.

The issue, despite what you think, is not your in-laws.  Your in-laws actively encouraged you to speak up but instead you chose to say nothing and fantasize about dropping grenades on them later.   The issue is you refuse to speak up and your husband doesn't bother to consult you and take your opinion into consideration before making decisions.

[gooddecisions]

Dec 13, 2013 13:03:35 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

Sounds like everyone involved is financially sound.

Regarding the opening message:

I wonder why you state the parents decided the youngest son should do this for his grandfather?

I wonder why his father did not do it for his father.

Obviously, if they had $30,000 they could afford a rental for him at the beginning, or even the down payment, but for some reason they did not want to get stuck with the monthly payments if they bought the house.

In any event, I would think when his parent's pass on, he should be getting most of it back through an inheritance, unless they are leaving everything to the church.

In any event, your husband should have discussed this payment with you well before he gave it to his parents.

They couldn't afford two places to buy the house and carry two mortgages. I guess they think rent is a waste of money unless someone in the family owns the house the rent is going towards. I really believe they saw it as a smart investment move to have their son by the house and his granddad pay the bills.

It's funny you should mention the inheritance, because last night they said the money will come back to him anyway in the form of an inheritance. So, they consider it as passing the same money back and forth. But we shall see. They have 5 children and really want to keep things fair. They've been retired for 10 years on a single federal pension and could live another 30 years, so I doubt there will be much to split among 5. I don't care about inheritances and encourage my parents to spend every penny they have and enjoy it while they can.

[shanendoah]

Dec 13, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

Regarding the bolded section. Has it ever occurred to you that they don't know because your DH CHOSE to not tell them. He could have, at any time during the years grandpa lived there, mentioned to his parents how much he was paying out each month. He did not.

Yes, he has told you that he does consider that time him helping grandpa, not his parents helping him. At the same time, he has continued not to tell them of the financial burden grandpa created, and in fact, has decided to now gift his parents with $30k, easing their current financial worries.

Personally, I would be pretty pissed if there was a piece of information C knew I had not shared with MY parents and he decided to go ahead and share it with them, despite the fact that I was fully capable of sharing it myself and was continuing it CHOOSE not to do so.


I agree with Muttley and Drama. You need to go to a counselor. You chose, back when you were dating DH, to let him move in with you without setting any expectations for contributing to household expenses. You chose to continue to let him live with you when he did not choose to contribute to household expenses. Yes, you both see this differently, and no matter how much you may argue about it with him now, he's got every reason to be convinced he's in the right because you LET IT HAPPEN. You did not reset expectations at the time. You cannot expect him to see things differently now if you didn't try to make him see then differently then. But you can't let go of being right about that (and I do agree with your view, but again, you let it happen) and that seems to be flavoring all financial interaction with him now.
Even if he won't go see a counselor with you, maybe you could go see a counselor on your own to learn to how actually let go of the past and move forward.

[gooddecisions]

Dec 13, 2013 13:34:41 GMT -5 shanendoah said:

Dec 13, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

Regarding the bolded section. Has it ever occurred to you that they don't know because your DH CHOSE to not tell them. He could have, at any time during the years grandpa lived there, mentioned to his parents how much he was paying out each month. He did not.

Yes, he has told you that he does consider that time him helping grandpa, not his parents helping him. At the same time, he has continued not to tell them of the financial burden grandpa created, and in fact, has decided to now gift his parents with $30k, easing their current financial worries.

Personally, I would be pretty pissed if there was a piece of information C knew I had not shared with MY parents and he decided to go ahead and share it with them, despite the fact that I was fully capable of sharing it myself and was continuing it CHOOSE not to do so.


I agree with Muttley and Drama. You need to go to a counselor. You chose, back when you were dating DH, to let him move in with you without setting any expectations for contributing to household expenses. You chose to continue to let him live with you when he did not choose to contribute to household expenses. Yes, you both see this differently, and no matter how much you may argue about it with him now, he's got every reason to be convinced he's in the right because you LET IT HAPPEN. You did not reset expectations at the time. You cannot expect him to see things differently now if you didn't try to make him see then differently then. But you can't let go of being right about that (and I do agree with your view, but again, you let it happen) and that seems to be flavoring all financial interaction with him now.
Even if he won't go see a counselor with you, maybe you could go see a counselor on your own to learn to how actually let go of the past and move forward.

A lot of incorrect assumptions in here, but I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. So, I'll let it slide.

[shanendoah]

I did not live the situation, so yes, I have to make assumptions based on the information you've given us, but they seem pretty logical.

If his parents don't know the cost, its because they were never told.

If you did try and set expectations when your DH moved in, you obviously did not stick to them, otherwise, he would have paid you and you wouldn't be so resentful now. You say you've let it go, but it seems to come up constantly in your threads, which doesn't seem like it's been let go to me or to others.

In both cases, you and your DH have made your decisions. You now need to figure out a way to live with the past and stop letting it mess up your future, because if you can't get past this, it WILL mess up your future.

I'm not trying to be mean, though the world does seem topsy-turvy when Zib is being nicer than I am. But I honestly don't think us just agreeing with you is going to help you out at all. I actually think it will only grow your resentment, since us "right thinking people" agree with you.
Go talk to a counselor. With or without your husband. You need to figure out how to actually let things go, and how to talk to him in the future so that you will be heard and listened to. Otherwise, the future will be either you miserable in your marriage or not include your husband. And both seem pretty sucky to me (as he mostly sounds like a great guy).

[swasat]

Dec 13, 2013 12:10:25 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

Dec 13, 2013 12:01:33 GMT -5 @tbird said:

Maybe I'm missing some background info. Was he not working, or didn't make enough yo pay these bills?

No, he has always made a lot more than I have and has never been unemployed. He just considered the expenses I paid at my house, mine while he handled the expenses at his rentals. He argued that I would have them regardless of whether he was there and feels that way to this day. I disagree and provided the many reasons why that argument doesn't hold water. It's all ancient history. We're in a new house under both our names, where he pays all the bills and put up the entire $150K down payment. My income goes to daycare, retirement and investments.

I see that as his way of redeeming himself in a way 

Granted he did not consider paying you in any way when he was living with you. But its not like he is not puting out his fair share. As you said, he makes way more than you. So he was being fair in putting out the entire downpayment from his finances, specially when you have seprate accounts. 

I would let the resentment go. Think of it this way....he lived in your house for 6 years and somehow I doubt having an additional person in the house increased your expenses by $150K. Now that he has paid the downpayment he could claim as well that you are living in a big and expensive Home because of him!!

I understand your point. I really do. But if he hasn't understood in these many years chances are he never will. But I do think he might have been trying to make up for it by not asking you to contribute anything to the downpayment amount. Its all water under the bridge now. 

But I will definitely suggest to you that in the future don't be passive aggressive. Nobody can read your mind, you have TELL people how you feel. And tell them WHILE the issue is fresh, not 6 years later. The issue loses its potency by then and nothing comes of it 

[whoisjohngalt]

Dec 13, 2013 12:11:37 GMT -5 973beachbum said:

Dec 13, 2013 11:58:35 GMT -5 gooddecisions said:

I have said it, many, many times. There is nothing I've written here that I haven't said to him in more ways than I can count. He just doesn't agree unlike all us like-minded YM people. So, I thought I'd air my grievances to my people who get it, especially since this fresh situation just happened.

It's a little awkward getting in the middle of him and his parents and I'd rather keep the peace when it comes to this specific pay-back situation. If I ever get a chance to talk privately with his Mom and it comes up, I'll likely say something so they can at least know how much was spent on having that house when his grandfather was there. They think the house has been a profitable investment and everyone wins.

Which is why we said you need to have this discussion with a professional counseler.  A disinterested third party will be an amazing amount of help in the two of you actually hearing and understanding the other's point of veiw and coming up with a real agreement going forward.

It sounds like you talk and he ignores you then says what he was going to do all along in public knowing you would  never open you mouth in front of others.  Then because you are mad at that you say things little by little to leak out your resentment.

That few hundred for a marriage counseling would be money well spent IMO. 

He doesn't ignore her.  He watches her ACTIONS

She was complaining about paying all the expenses for 6 yrs and yet, she still did it - so he didn't take her seriously

He is still  not taking her seriously bc she is not DOING anything to change the situation. 

[gooddecisions]

Bottom line here:

1. We talked about how we wanted to handle that original down payment this summer. He did ask me what I thought we should do. I told him to consider paying half now and half whenever he sold the property, but ultimately it's his decision.

2. They do know that he was supplementing his granddad and he even said something about it again last night, to which they said they didn't realize it. He did not tally it up like I did to show them how much that added up to because that was not the progression of the conversation. They likely don't realize it comes out to more than their down payment. They conveniently forget this tidbit the times this topic has come up because it has been mentioned before back when his granddad was still alive. As of this past year, the house is about 5K/year cash-flow positive, so if we hang onto it and incur no additional expenses like the special assessment, a new HVAC, roof, periods of vacancy, etc, then chances are good that 37K will be made up in 6 or 7 years. My guess is there will be big expenses given that the house is now 15 years old and it will take closer to 10 years to break-even on that sunk cost. The last tenant left him on the hook for 10K of unpaid rent and is currently on a pay back plan at the rate of $200/month.

3. Just because somebody asks you your opinion and you don't give it right then, doesn't mean you never get a go-back card to say what you think. That's ridiculous to think that because I didn't state my opinion immediately when asked on the spot last night, I must forever hold my peace. They came over unannounced.

4. He did tell me about the 3K cash. He literally made rain Grants and Benjis on my head like we're in Vegas a week ago. I asked him what's the deal and he said he closed his WF account. Before anyone says "oh wow, he closed out his account without telling you!" He also told me he was going to do that because he was pissed off at the fees. Since his other account is virtual, he said he'd probably give it to his parents. I didn't care what he did with it.

5. I did discuss the finances before he even moved in and continued to bring it up many times. This is not the case of keeping my feelings to myself, I just didn't tell him to get the hell out until he paid his fair share each month.

6. I have let go of it, the only reason I brought it up here is because it had relevance to the original back-story.

7. This is a message board, sometimes it's just nice to lay out all the cards to get thoughts in order while taking in the opinions of people who have no emotional stake. I'm not "passively aggressive talking behind his back", lol.

8. Our marriage and finances are great. We really have no issues. And the last thing we fight over is money because we have plenty. I don't care about this 30K. Like the story with the aunts in the other post- it's really the sentiment behind it all that bothers me and the lack of acknowledgement over who was really helping whom.