Choosing between children's needs

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:28:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:24:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

40 cases? more like 440.

You don't get a team of lawyers working only on your case unless you pay someone millions.   

Didn't that family in Texas just pay $4.5 million to get their kid out of jail for killing 4 people? 

Yes, extreme outlier.  I doubt there is anyone here that could come close to touching that.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:29:15 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:28:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Didn't that family in Texas just pay $4.5 million to get their kid out of jail for killing 4 people? 

Yes, extreme outlier.  I doubt there is anyone here that could come close to touching that.

We have quite a few 401k millionaires on the forum.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:28:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:24:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

40 cases? more like 440.

You don't get a team of lawyers working only on your case unless you pay someone millions.   

So I take it you agree with me.   I didn't mean to disparage all public defenders.   But you can't compare the final product that you get from both services.

I don't think she does. Notice the use of the word "only."

[Phoenix84]

Dec 12, 2013 15:22:50 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:17:38 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Note I said I wouldn't sacrifice my financial future for an ADULT child.  I also never said I wouldn't help.  For a minor child, things would be different, and even as an adult, I'd try to help, if only as emotional support and advice.  I might even consider some financial help if it wasn't too much.

Are you saying that if one of your girls committed a serious crime, that you would spend tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to try and get an outcome that will not be positive?

I would not spend anything to get an outcome that will not be positive.   But I would do what it takes to improve my daughter's life. 

ie.  if she killed someone while drunk driving I would do what I could to reduce her penalty.

So, in other words, you would hire Swamp.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:29:59 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:29:15 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Yes, extreme outlier.  I doubt there is anyone here that could come close to touching that.

We have quite a few 401k millionaires on the forum.

Last time I checked, legal fees were not a valid use of 401(k) funds. Only the downpayment of a home and life situations that can cause bankrupty (medical bills, loss of home, etc).

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:27:45 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:22:50 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I would not spend anything to get an outcome that will not be positive.   But I would do what it takes to improve my daughter's life. 

ie.  if she killed someone while drunk driving I would do what I could to reduce her penalty.

If (God forbid!) my kid killed someone while drunk driving, I would stand by her while she faces the consequences. Where I would help her would be to make sure she did not get MORE punishment than she deserved (yes, it happens to poor folks, minorities and other folks without good representation, especially when attorneys/courts/judges/law enforcement want to make a public example out of the case). But I wouldn't try to get her reduced or "out" of what she truly deserved.

So if you could be a character witness during a sentencing phase and what you said could influence the sentence anywhere from 25 years to 5 years, you wouldn't be doing your damndist to get her down to 5?

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:32:09 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:29:59 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

We have quite a few 401k millionaires on the forum.

Last time I checked, legal fees were not a valid use of 401(k) funds. Only the downpayment of a home and life situations that can cause bankrupty (medical bills, loss of home, etc).

You could get the money if you needed it.  

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:31:11 GMT -5 Phoenix84 said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:22:50 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

I would not spend anything to get an outcome that will not be positive.   But I would do what it takes to improve my daughter's life. 

ie.  if she killed someone while drunk driving I would do what I could to reduce her penalty.

So, in other words, you would hire Swamp.

I don't think I could afford swamp.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:34:37 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:27:45 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

If (God forbid!) my kid killed someone while drunk driving, I would stand by her while she faces the consequences. Where I would help her would be to make sure she did not get MORE punishment than she deserved (yes, it happens to poor folks, minorities and other folks without good representation, especially when attorneys/courts/judges/law enforcement want to make a public example out of the case). But I wouldn't try to get her reduced or "out" of what she truly deserved.

So if you could be a character witness during a sentencing phase and what you said could influence the sentence anywhere from 25 years to 5 years, you wouldn't be doing your damndist to get her down to 5?

I would be working "my damndist" - as you put it - to make sure she gets a sentence that is fair. "Fair" would depend on the circumstances that I could not even begin to speculate on here. If 25 were excessive - yes, I would fight it.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:36:39 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:34:37 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

So if you could be a character witness during a sentencing phase and what you said could influence the sentence anywhere from 25 years to 5 years, you wouldn't be doing your damndist to get her down to 5?

I would be working "my damndist" - as you put it - to make sure she gets a sentence that is fair. "Fair" would depend on the circumstances that I could not even begin to speculate on here. If 25 were excessive - yes, I would fight it.

That is so weird to me.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:37:15 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:36:39 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

I would be working "my damndist" - as you put it - to make sure she gets a sentence that is fair. "Fair" would depend on the circumstances that I could not even begin to speculate on here. If 25 were excessive - yes, I would fight it.

That is so weird to me.

Not weird to me. I'm a big believer in natural consequences for one's action (by the way, that's the definition of "karma"). I would not try to get her "out" of something she deserved; but I absolutely WOULD try to make sure her consequences are fair for what she did and not excessive. What is weird about that?

[swamp]

Dec 12, 2013 15:34:37 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:27:45 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

If (God forbid!) my kid killed someone while drunk driving, I would stand by her while she faces the consequences. Where I would help her would be to make sure she did not get MORE punishment than she deserved (yes, it happens to poor folks, minorities and other folks without good representation, especially when attorneys/courts/judges/law enforcement want to make a public example out of the case). But I wouldn't try to get her reduced or "out" of what she truly deserved.

So if you could be a character witness during a sentencing phase and what you said could influence the sentence anywhere from 25 years to 5 years, you wouldn't be doing your damndist to get her down to 5?

  usually when someone enters a plea, the sentencing is agreed on ahead of time.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:39:10 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:37:15 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

That is so weird to me.

Not weird to me. I'm a big believer in natural consequences for one's action (by the way, that's the definition of "karma"). I would not try to get her "out" of something she deserved; but I absolutely WOULD try to make sure her consequences are fair. What is weird about that?

Going to jail is not a natural consequence of anything.  It is a man-made system of often arbitrary rule that effect every situation differently.    I don't understanding not trying to do everything in your power to help your kid.

Obviously every rule is made to be broken and there are some people like ted bundy who just can't be helped... 

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:41:20 GMT -5 swamp said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:34:37 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

So if you could be a character witness during a sentencing phase and what you said could influence the sentence anywhere from 25 years to 5 years, you wouldn't be doing your damndist to get her down to 5?

  usually when someone enters a plea, the sentencing is agreed on ahead of time.

cool

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:41:38 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:39:10 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Not weird to me. I'm a big believer in natural consequences for one's action (by the way, that's the definition of "karma"). I would not try to get her "out" of something she deserved; but I absolutely WOULD try to make sure her consequences are fair. What is weird about that?

Going to jail is not a natural consequence of anything.  It is a man-made system of often arbitrary rule that effect every situation differently.    I don't understanding not trying to do everything in your power to help your kid.

Obviously every rule is made to be broken and there are some people like ted bundy who just can't be helped... 

Ah - but in my world, helping your kid navigate the consequences of their actions IS doing everything in your power to help them.

It's very hard/impossible to say how I might act because I can't even begin to speculate on all the circumstances.

Would I do more if it were a minor child that just screwed up because they are immature and didn't think through their actions - and they will truly learn for this and it will not be repeated? Of course.

Would I do less or nothing if it were an adult child with a history of wanton disregard for other people? Of course.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:46:17 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:41:38 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Going to jail is not a natural consequence of anything.  It is a man-made system of often arbitrary rule that effect every situation differently.    I don't understanding not trying to do everything in your power to help your kid.

Obviously every rule is made to be broken and there are some people like ted bundy who just can't be helped... 

Ah - but in my world, helping your kid navigate the consequences of their actions IS doing everything in your power to help them.

It's very hard/impossible to say how I might act because I can't even begin to speculate on all the circumstances.

Would I do more if it were a minor child that just screwed up because they are immature and didn't think through their actions - and they will truly learn for this and it will not be repeated? Of course.

Would I do less or nothing if it were an adult child with a history of wanton disregard for other people? Of course.

navigating is something, but paying for a lawyer that can get them 10 years probation rather than 25 years in prison is much better.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:47:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:46:17 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Ah - but in my world, helping your kid navigate the consequences of their actions IS doing everything in your power to help them.

It's very hard/impossible to say how I might act because I can't even begin to speculate on all the circumstances.

Would I do more if it were a minor child that just screwed up because they are immature and didn't think through their actions - and they will truly learn for this and it will not be repeated? Of course.

Would I do less or nothing if it were an adult child with a history of wanton disregard for other people? Of course.

navigating is something, but paying for a lawyer that can get them 10 years probation rather than 25 years in prison is much better.

To me, lawyer-ing up (or not, depending on the circumstances) is part of the navigation process.

[nytaxpayer]

One of the Skakel young adults (family wealthy, in the news becaused related to Ethel Kennedy) was convicted of murder.  Family paid 1.2 Million for lawyer.  Overtuned becasue of ineffective defense.  Reading judges ruling, you can see why lawyer was incompetent.  Mindboggling.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 15:49:10 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:47:51 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

navigating is something, but paying for a lawyer that can get them 10 years probation rather than 25 years in prison is much better.

To me, lawyer-ing up (or not, depending on the circumstances) is part of the navigation process.

So you would do what you could to help out.     I'm not insinuating that you should firebomb the judges house or anything.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 15:57:38 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:49:10 GMT -5 kittensaver said:

To me, lawyer-ing up (or not, depending on the circumstances) is part of the navigation process.

So you would do what you could to help out.     I'm not insinuating that you should firebomb the judges house or anything.

Absolutely. I just believe - of course depending on circumstance that cannot be speculated on here - that merely tossing dollars at the situation will help, or will even be the right thing to do. It just all depends . . . .

[Deleted]

Dec 11, 2013 22:37:34 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Arch you might try but honestly once they are in trouble and in the penal system they are pretty much doomed.

All the more reason to do anything in your power to make sure your kid never see the inside of a prison.

[kittensaver]

Dec 12, 2013 16:04:12 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 11, 2013 22:37:34 GMT -5 @patstab said:

Arch you might try but honestly once they are in trouble and in the penal system they are pretty much doomed.

All the more reason to do anything in your power to make sure your kid never see the inside of a prison.

Well if the kid did something so horrendous that he deserves to see the inside of a prison, well then . . . . so be it. Not that it wouldn't tear me up - it would! - but I guess I believe that Karma is a form of justice that no one can circumvent. I might lose a child to the prison system for a number of years, but the family left behind of the person he killed has lost their child forever. Shouldn't he pay a debt to society for the harm he's caused?

I know, I know - easy to say when it is someone else's child - not nearly so easy when it's yours . Personally, I hope to God it never happens to my girls (don't think it will - they both navigated a difficult/neglect situation in childhood and came out on the other side with college degrees, husbands, children, good jobs and stable homes. Whew!) It is really hard to imagine the pain of families whose children do really bad things . 

[Ombud]

Dec 12, 2013 15:28:06 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Dec 12, 2013 15:24:16 GMT -5 swamp said:

40 cases? more like 440.

You don't get a team of lawyers working only on your case unless you pay someone millions.   

Didn't that family in Texas just pay $4.5 million to get their kid out of jail for killing 4 people? 

The Affluence Defense