shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 18, 2013 12:10:22 GMT -5
Coming from a poor very broken home, I know very well how people perceive the poor. In school I was treated differently from the teachers as if they expected me to fail. I was put in the lowest reading group when I transferred to a middle class school district from a predominately poor one, even I should not have there and they quickly switched. I could go into more specifics but is still stings to speak about.
Children pick up on a lot of things and this attitude towards poor is very much a hinderance to those children's future. It starts with self esteem to have a society looking down their nose at you does not help the situation at all.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 12:12:36 GMT -5
Coming from a poor very broken home, I know very well how people perceive the poor. In school I was treated differently from the teachers as if they expected me to fail. I was put in the lowest reading group when I transferred to a middle class school district from a predominately poor one, even I should not have there and they quickly switched. I could go into more specifics but is still stings to speak about. Children pick up on a lot of things and this attitude towards poor is very much a hinderance to those children's future. It starts with self esteem to have a society looking down their nose at you does not help the situation at all. i think the implications of this study are that without some sort of shift in perspective we are heading toward greater stratification of wealth.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Jul 18, 2013 12:24:54 GMT -5
Interesting subject. One that has finally caught my interest enough to research it more. <br><br>I'm wondering if we could exchange the word 'entitled' to the word 'confident'? What do you (all) think about this?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 18, 2013 12:30:12 GMT -5
So, are you saying welfare recipients don't feel "entitled " to their benefits? After all, they earned it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 12:35:48 GMT -5
So, are you saying welfare recipients don't feel "entitled " to their benefits? After all, they earned it. i am not sure that the study dealt with that, frankly. but the conclusions about what the wealthy feel about the poor were abundantly clear. they are the same as yours.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 18, 2013 12:36:31 GMT -5
First - let's be clear - "I" don't consider feeling of entitle about certain things as a bad thing. If I earned it - you better believe it I think/feel I am entitled to it. Why wouldn't I? i can't tell you why YOU wouldn't- but i can tell you why I wouldn't. my businesses depend on the efforts of other people. without their labor- their work- i would not make a dime. therefore, i owe my success to the cooperation of others, and i thank them for it often. i feel NO sense of entitlement that does not include THEM. i think that WE, as a TEAM are entitled to the fruits of our labor. but i never forget the we.And what "class" are we talking about? whatever class you happen to associate yourself with. Well, "I" attribute my hard work to ME. I don't own a business (yet), but even if I did - again, MY hard work would be MINE. And while I understand that no one can do things alone, saying that I shouldn't feel entitled to fruits of my labor to me sound absurd. I have no problem with the "team" feeling entitled to fruits of their labor as well I have no idea what class I am in. financially speaking - probably lower middle class, but many would disagree
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 12:39:30 GMT -5
Interesting subject. One that has finally caught my interest enough to research it more. I'm wondering if we could exchange the word 'entitled' to the word 'confident'? What do you (all) think about this? i don't think it is as accurate. here is why: if you cheat and win, you don't "deserve" it. you are not entitled to it. if you earn it and win, you do. what this study showed is that wealthy people feel they are entitled irrespective of effort. confidence has to do with how you see yourself. it has nothing to do with wealth, per se. a poor person can be just as confident as a rich one. i think a sense of entitlement can make one appear confident, however.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 12:43:15 GMT -5
First - let's be clear - "I" don't consider feeling of entitle about certain things as a bad thing. If I earned it - you better believe it I think/feel I am entitled to it. Why wouldn't I? i can't tell you why YOU wouldn't- but i can tell you why I wouldn't. my businesses depend on the efforts of other people. without their labor- their work- i would not make a dime. therefore, i owe my success to the cooperation of others, and i thank them for it often. i feel NO sense of entitlement that does not include THEM. i think that WE, as a TEAM are entitled to the fruits of our labor. but i never forget the we.And what "class" are we talking about? whatever class you happen to associate yourself with. dj this is where we part of course your employee helped you "get there" and continue to help you succeed in kind, you provide them with a fair wage for a fair day's labor you provide employee benefits such as health care, sick leave, vacation, etc you pay to the state a % of their income as unemployment taxes should something befall your company you pay an insurance company premiums god forbid they get hurt on the job, so that they can continue to receive income you pay another portion of their income to the federal government for FICA and SS taxes you may even provide access to a 401k or other retirement program, and may even fund a portion with profits on an ongoing basis and you provide them with job security provided they continue to produce for you I say you do plenty for them.....most owners do (there are a few who think their employees are shit, but those are the exception not the rule) but in my opinion....that is where the rubber meets the road business first, friendship second..... and you always have to make decisions on what is best for the company and you...not necessarily them
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 12:44:06 GMT -5
whatever class you happen to associate yourself with. Well, "I" attribute my hard work to ME. I don't own a business (yet), but even if I did - again, MY hard work would be MINE. i wasn't talking about your hard work. that is an independent variable. you can work hard and become rich. you can work hard and be poor. you can be a lazy bastard and be rich. you can be a lazy bastard and be poor.And while I understand that no one can do things alone, saying that I shouldn't feel entitled to fruits of my labor to me sound absurd. not to me. i don't feel entitled to anything. just because i am a nice guy, i have not earned a place in heaven. i have to work every day for my rewards, and they only come to me from the cooperation of many many people, including my family. i think you are mistaking "earning" your pay for being "entitled" to it. entitlement implies that you deserve it no matter WHAT effort you make, just because you are awesome, or white, or a man, or rich.I have no problem with the "team" feeling entitled to fruits of their labor as well I have no idea what class I am in. financially speaking - probably lower middle class, but many would disagree America is the least class conscious of any western society, i believe. but don't ask me to back that up. i could not find the reference the last time someone did.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 12:46:11 GMT -5
whatever class you happen to associate yourself with. dj this is where we part of course your employee helped you "get there" and continue to help you succeed in kind, you provide them with a fair wage for a fair day's labor you provide employee benefits such as health care, sick leave, vacation, etc you pay to the state a % of their income as unemployment taxes should something befall your company you pay an insurance company premiums god forbid they get hurt on the job, so that they can continue to receive income you pay another portion of their income to the federal government for FICA and SS taxes you may even provide access to a 401k or other retirement program, and may even fund a portion with profits on an ongoing basis and you provide them with job security provided they continue to produce for you I say you do plenty for them.....most owners do (there are a few who think their employees are shit, but those are the exception not the rule) but in my opinion....that is where the rubber meets the road business first, friendship second..... and you always have to make decisions on what is best for the company and you...not necessarily them i am not their friends. i am not their benefactor. i treat them with respect. they treat me with respect. i help them make money. they help me make money. it is a cooperative venture. however, let's stick to the subject. this is not about me. this is about perceptions of wealth and entitlement.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Jul 18, 2013 12:48:54 GMT -5
So, are you saying welfare recipients don't feel "entitled " to their benefits? After all, they earned it. If you watched the video, you would know the word 'entitled' was attached to the wealthy.
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shelby
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Post by shelby on Jul 18, 2013 12:58:26 GMT -5
I think rich people feel entitled to respect and superiority regardless of effort as well. Even those born into wealth and never had a hard days work in their life, over those who work hard and still find themselves in a lower class. It is a mindset that money makes you and sooo many peoples self worth is measured in dollars, no matter how they earned cheated or inherited the wealth.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 18, 2013 13:06:52 GMT -5
Of course it is. Not surprised about that at all.
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Post by jkapp on Jul 18, 2013 13:15:59 GMT -5
Interesting subject. One that has finally caught my interest enough to research it more. I'm wondering if we could exchange the word 'entitled' to the word 'confident'? What do you (all) think about this? i don't think it is as accurate. here is why: if you cheat and win, you don't "deserve" it. you are not entitled to it. if you earn it and win, you do. what this study showed is that wealthy people feel they are entitled irrespective of effort.
confidence has to do with how you see yourself. it has nothing to do with wealth, per se. a poor person can be just as confident as a rich one. i think a sense of entitlement can make one appear confident, however. In that respect, then, it was a one-sided study. Many poor feel entitled to welfare whether they earn it, or even pay for it. And many people that argue for a vague "living wage" never quite mention the idea of earning that wage, only being paid it. If a person's only skill is stocking a shelf, I don't see how they could ever hope to earn a so-called "living wage." It would be up to that person to find a way to live on the wage they are paid (meaning making sacrifices). Unfortunately, Americans tend to a have a great many problems with making any sort of sacrifices in their lives these days...I wonder where that attitude came from??
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 18, 2013 13:34:11 GMT -5
Actually I was listening to an NPR piece several months back where a researcher interviewed a bunch of 'wealthy' people and asked them how they became successful.
Most of the time, the wealthy person claimed his/her success was 100% as a result of his hard work and motivation.
However, when she asked specific questions about how they got their first job out of college, or how they landed that first big project, or who their first clients were, 70% of the time it was someone they knew - or their parents knew - or someone they went to school with, or a friend's parent who gave them that big opportunity.
So over time they came to believe they were completely responsible for their success in life, when actually, they had a lot of help.
I do think that's human nature - most of us want to take credit for the good things that happen to us, and overlook all the help we got along the way.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:49:54 GMT -5
Of course it is. Not surprised about that at all. so? look, here is the thing, zib. you are constantly bagging on poor people for gaming the system. but the fact is that rich people game it. that is what this study shows. maybe poor people do, too. i am not here to argue with that. that particular stereotype MAY be true. if so, maybe they are learning the trait from their rich counterparts.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:50:37 GMT -5
i don't think it is as accurate. here is why: if you cheat and win, you don't "deserve" it. you are not entitled to it. if you earn it and win, you do. what this study showed is that wealthy people feel they are entitled irrespective of effort.
confidence has to do with how you see yourself. it has nothing to do with wealth, per se. a poor person can be just as confident as a rich one. i think a sense of entitlement can make one appear confident, however. In that respect, then, it was a one-sided study. how so? the rich and poor are subjected to the same criteria.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 18, 2013 13:51:11 GMT -5
free your mind, and watch: I think it depends on what kind of rich we're talking about. More often than not, drivers of luxury cars are not balance sheet rich. They're income statement rich. Without knowing anything but the make of car, and nothing about the drivers- the study can't conclude anything save for what it set out to conclude: the so-called "rich" feel entitled, or that the rules don't apply to them. It's a non-study about nothing.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:52:25 GMT -5
And many people that argue for a vague "living wage" never quite mention the idea of earning that wage, only being paid it. this is a bit off the subject (your fault, not mine), but do you think that there is any wage that is "beneath human dignity"?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:52:58 GMT -5
free your mind, and watch: I think it depends on what kind of rich we're talking about. . i don't think it depends on anything of the sort.
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 18, 2013 13:55:06 GMT -5
I think it depends on what kind of rich we're talking about. . i don't think it depends on anything of the sort. Your thinking is flawed.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 18, 2013 13:55:11 GMT -5
free your mind, and watch: I think it depends on what kind of rich we're talking about. More often than not, drivers of luxury cars are not balance sheet rich. They're income statement rich. Without knowing anything but the make of car, and nothing about the drivers- the study can't conclude anything save for what it set out to conclude: the so-called "rich" feel entitled, or that the rules don't apply to them. It's a non-study about nothing. Umm, paul ... it's not all about the BMW. There are a number of studies and a number of paradigms. There are even <gasp> <choke> articles out there you can <gulp>read! The entirety of the subject under discussion is not contained in the BMW. Honest. It's not.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 18, 2013 13:55:38 GMT -5
i don't think it depends on anything of the sort. Your thinking is flawed. No, it's not.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:56:24 GMT -5
free your mind, and watch: I think it depends on what kind of rich we're talking about. More often than not, drivers of luxury cars are not balance sheet rich. They're income statement rich. Without knowing anything but the make of car, and nothing about the drivers- the study can't conclude anything save for what it set out to conclude: the so-called "rich" feel entitled, or that the rules don't apply to them. It's a non-study about nothing. you can't say that without analyzing the metrics of the study. for example, it may be that owning a luxury vehicle qualifies one as being rich in the study. if so, you may be right about the arbitraryness of the study in that ONE RESPECT (discounting the fact that this is actually a meta-study with 30 separate sub-studies in it), but you also might NOT be. social experiments like this are inherently flawed, in that different people will behave differently in different situations. therefore, i treat this as a situational ethics study. however, the consistency of the results is, imo, far too great to consider the study "about nothing".
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 13:57:47 GMT -5
i don't think it depends on anything of the sort. Your thinking is flawed. prove it. unlike you, i am completely open to the possibility i am wrong.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 14:00:05 GMT -5
ps- your tag line is utter rubbish, Paul. economics is not devoid of coercion. in fact, it utterly depends on it.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 18, 2013 14:00:09 GMT -5
DJ,
ooohh, if I thought I deserve things simply for being awesome.....
anyway, all I am saying is that I don't begrudge people for being wealthy, I don't subscribe to the idea that they should share anything with me or anyone else. I don't generalize people by saying that if you are rich - you are entitled or lie or think rules don't apply to you. I think people from all walks of life do that.
I also don't find those type of studies worth anything, but that's just me.
I think US is one of the most amazing places, bc you can truly be anyone you want and reach whatever goals you want. And every time I hear all the "reasons" why it's so hard - I call it excuses.
All that being said, I also think that less and less people value honesty and integrity.
I could be wrong, I've been wrong before
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Jul 18, 2013 14:02:05 GMT -5
dj this is where we part of course your employee helped you "get there" and continue to help you succeed in kind, you provide them with a fair wage for a fair day's labor you provide employee benefits such as health care, sick leave, vacation, etc you pay to the state a % of their income as unemployment taxes should something befall your company you pay an insurance company premiums god forbid they get hurt on the job, so that they can continue to receive income you pay another portion of their income to the federal government for FICA and SS taxes you may even provide access to a 401k or other retirement program, and may even fund a portion with profits on an ongoing basis and you provide them with job security provided they continue to produce for you I say you do plenty for them.....most owners do (there are a few who think their employees are shit, but those are the exception not the rule) but in my opinion....that is where the rubber meets the road business first, friendship second..... and you always have to make decisions on what is best for the company and you...not necessarily them i am not their friends. i am not their benefactor. i treat them with respect. they treat me with respect. i help them make money. they help me make money. it is a cooperative venture. however, let's stick to the subject. this is not about me. this is about perceptions of wealth and entitlement. Even assuming that drivers of luxury cars are "rich"- which is an assumption, all the first part showed us is the habits of the rich who drive luxury cars. Since we know from other credible studies that the rich are far less likely to drive foreign luxury automobiles, we only know how a minority of the rich feel. With respect to the rigged Monopoly game- that literally demonstrates nothing. Everyone knows it's more fun to win than lose, and that scientifically, people that are having fun enjoy pretzels. I guess.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 18, 2013 14:02:34 GMT -5
Oh and btw, I am not rich, nor I drive a BMW but I REALLY don't like stopping for pedestrians AND if I am offered free candy - well, let's just say I am not shy about helping myself. So, what does that prove?
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Post by workpublic on Jul 18, 2013 14:03:47 GMT -5
in fact, the study above, IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED IT, specifically said that liberals and conservatives had the same reactions in the study.
i was talking about the responses early on. not the video.
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