jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 18, 2013 8:38:24 GMT -5
There is- and it is no secret where this is coming from- it is the true weasels that make their money pissing people off and pointing to the boogeymen du jour. But- occasionally some very wealthy people tip their hand- like Romney But who do we have on the welfare hater train- the misinformation train- the people that cannot even support their own position without lying- we have the usual folks- Rush, Hannity, Boortz, Levin, etc. Our local guy spent the last two days explaining the welfare problem as an addiction like crack. Intertwined through the whole spiel is the welfare people as he sees them- 100% BLACK and democrat. Democrats -according to him- want to expand government benefits for votes and prefer people to not work. My question to sensible Republicans- just who in the hell is running your party? If you don't stand up to these jerks then that makes you the useless jerks. Someone needs to grow a sack over there before your party disintegrates. if the house fails to pass the immigration bill, the Latino community are going to beat them down cowboy style over the next 5-10 years. no amount of voter-ID laws and redistricting is going to save them. Yes, because they get so much of the latino vote now, right? Look they can vote against it and not get the latino vote (which they don't get anyway) or they can vote for it and give democrats millions of additonal votes. I don't blame them for not voting for it. What will be interesting to see, though, is how the latinos (a major catholic demographic) will feel about those votes once they find out just how much the democrats despise and look down on religion.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Jul 18, 2013 8:40:40 GMT -5
Let's not forget, that the majority of those takers.....Are living on your dime. I'm fortunate enough to have all I need PLUS that dime. If it helps someone else, I'm glad I've got the dime to give. And the person taking that dime will spt in your face and tell you its not enough, and that if you don't give him more, you're a greedy, heartless bastard. Or something like that
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 18, 2013 8:51:35 GMT -5
So it is not the rich people's fault that they are assholes. It is just human nature that if you get rich you become an asshole.
but only for republicans. when democrats get rich or are born rich they are totally righteous dudes
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luckyme
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Post by luckyme on Jul 18, 2013 9:02:56 GMT -5
I think this video is interesting and I can believe it. BUT, categorizing the poor as NOT being takers or equally feeling entitled to gov't funds is not disproven. Living in an area w/ high numbers of poor and low income, believe me I see a lot of "takers" there as well. I worked in a grocery store by low income housing. Lot of stealing going on, vandalism, confrontations, etc. Taking my kids to friends living there, dead of winter and the heat is going full blast, like a hot house. When I asked why, it was usually because they liked walking around in short sleeves, and they didn't have to pay for it, so why not. I can go on and on, but won't. Basically, the rich may feel entitled due to their wealth, but I would like to see a study if people on the dole feel equally entitled? Also, I grew up in a family where we were on and off of welfare; my father had serious medical issues, so was hospitalized a lot. My parents were generous with what they could afford, even if it was just a few dollars. So growing up like that, and still utilizing some social services today, I spend quite a bit of time in the lower income/poor world. I don't like a lot of what I am seeing and hearing, so I am less inclined to be generous to a lot of the programs there. I feel like I can appreciate both side of this argument, and don't like a lot of what I see from either end.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2013 9:04:48 GMT -5
not all poor people are saints, and not all rich people are assholes
for a lot of the poor, they have no one to blame but themselves
bad decisions doomed them almost from go....no education, arrest record, no discernible skills
they are "disposable" employees because of those facts......if 2000 people can do what you do in a small area, the pay will be extremely low
those that are willing to get their hands dirty, they have a chance to move up, but it is hard backbreaking work
for others, bad health, bad parents, unlucky.....call it what you will.....they never had a chance
as far as the rich that made it themselves...what i have found is the following
they are driven by a passion to succeed....they never give up.....and they believe failing is just another step on their path to getting rich
yes....they can come across as assholes....they have huge expectations of themselves and those that work for them
the ones i know believe in themselves...sometimes to the detriment of those around them
they are usually A+ personality types, and are cutthroat businessmen/women
most could give a shit less what other people "think" about them.....it is the least of their concerns
and everyone of them has had a pet project or two that they "give back" to in the community
hard work, street smarts, and thinking they cant fail are the traits they all have had
i havent had the pleasure of meeting too many born with the silver spoon so to say....
the couple i have met have been spoiled, entitled, lazy, and shitty to their employees
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mtman
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Post by mtman on Jul 18, 2013 9:08:52 GMT -5
I'm fortunate enough to have all I need PLUS that dime. If it helps someone else, I'm glad I've got the dime to give. And the person taking that dime will spt in your face and tell you its not enough, and that if you don't give him more, you're a greedy, heartless bastard. Or something like that Didn't you watch the video?......You have it all wrong.....Those takers are kind, gentle souls, who are gratefull to you and never wish you any ill will.....Unless you mess with their snap money, their section 8 housing, welfare check, and the free cell phone we furnish them to call about job opportunities......Takers will always be takers.....It's in their DNA.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 18, 2013 9:46:09 GMT -5
I'm fortunate enough to have all I need PLUS that dime. If it helps someone else, I'm glad I've got the dime to give. And the person taking that dime will spt in your face and tell you its not enough, and that if you don't give him more, you're a greedy, heartless bastard. Or something like that LOL! Well, jkapp, I haven't had that happen to me, fortunately. Mostly, I've received thanks. Sometimes, it's come in the form of something handmade, or home-cooked! I've sorta found that to be pretty darned cool!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jul 18, 2013 9:49:58 GMT -5
So it is not the rich people's fault that they are assholes. It is just human nature that if you get rich you become an asshole. but only for republicans. when democrats get rich or are born rich they are totally righteous dudes The only person rolling out the Democrat vs Republican mime is you, workpublic.
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workpublic
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Post by workpublic on Jul 18, 2013 10:28:03 GMT -5
Guess which one has a NOBAMA sticker on his 100K custom truck And people ask why I don't vote republican anymore- because they are assholes now. There is- and it is no secret where this is coming from- it is the true weasels that make their money pissing people off and pointing to the boogeymen du jour. But- occasionally some very wealthy people tip their hand- like Romney But who do we have on the welfare hater train- the misinformation train- the people that cannot even support their own position without lying- we have the usual folks- Rush, Hannity, Boortz, Levin, etc. Our local guy spent the last two days explaining the welfare problem as an addiction like crack. Intertwined through the whole spiel is the welfare people as he sees them- 100% BLACK and democrat. Democrats -according to him- want to expand government benefits for votes and prefer people to not work. My question to sensible Republicans- just who in the hell is running your party? If you don't stand up to these jerks then that makes you the useless jerks. Someone needs to grow a sack over there before your party disintegrates. The only person rolling out the Democrat vs Republican mime is you, workpublic. sorry MMM, my bad.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:12:00 GMT -5
So it is not the rich people's fault that they are assholes. It is just human nature that if you get rich you become an asshole. but only for republicans. when democrats get rich or are born rich they are totally righteous dudes The only person rolling out the Democrat vs Republican mime is you, workpublic. in fact, the study above, IF YOU ACTUALLY WATCHED IT, specifically said that liberals and conservatives had the same reactions in the study. this is a problem that lies along the economic continuum, not the political one.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:14:28 GMT -5
I think this video is interesting and I can believe it. BUT, categorizing the poor as NOT being takers or equally feeling entitled to gov't funds is not disproven. don't read too much into the title. what i actually said is that there is more sympathy for the poor among the poor than the rich. i believe that is a fact. what i have always wondered is WHY. this study actually explains part of it. it has to do with "class identity". nowhere did i say that all the rich are assholes, or all the poor are nice, and NEITHER DID THE STUDY.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:16:11 GMT -5
if the house fails to pass the immigration bill, the Latino community are going to beat them down cowboy style over the next 5-10 years. no amount of voter-ID laws and redistricting is going to save them. Yes, because they get so much of the latino vote now, right? if you think that has anything to do with it, you are mistaken. it has to do with demographics and absolute numbers, not percentages.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:17:22 GMT -5
I'm fortunate enough to have all I need PLUS that dime. If it helps someone else, I'm glad I've got the dime to give. And the person taking that dime will spt in your face and tell you its not enough, and that if you don't give him more, you're a greedy, heartless bastard. Or something like that that is absolutely, 100%, NOT what the study says, infers or implies. please watch it before you post again. TYIA.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:22:53 GMT -5
not all poor people are saints, and not all rich people are assholes for a lot of the poor, they have no one to blame but themselves bad decisions doomed them almost from go....no education, arrest record, no discernible skills they are "disposable" employees because of those facts......if 2000 people can do what you do in a small area, the pay will be extremely low those that are willing to get their hands dirty, they have a chance to move up, but it is hard backbreaking work for others, bad health, bad parents, unlucky.....call it what you will.....they never had a chance as far as the rich that made it themselves...what i have found is the following they are driven by a passion to succeed....they never give up.....and they believe failing is just another step on their path to getting rich yes....they can come across as assholes....they have huge expectations of themselves and those that work for them you are either missing the point of the OP, or making a new one here. this has nothing to do with the rich being "assholes". this has to do with their general tendency to not identify with the poor, to suspect them of being "moochers", and to be constantly "working the system" to maximum advantage, even to the detriment of others. i am not actually calling them assholes for that. i think it is consistent with their mindset. however, what i found interesting about the study is that the poor are NOT THAT SAME WAY. they actually are more cooperative and sympathetic, and less likely to place themselves above others, consider themselves morally superior, and act in a way which says "i am entitled to things because of my station in life". this is precisely the OPPOSITE of how they are portrayed in the media.
in other words, what i found interesting is that the rich harp on and on again about traits of the poor which are actually far more common to rich people.
the ones i know believe in themselves...sometimes to the detriment of those around them they are usually A+ personality types, and are cutthroat businessmen/women most could give a shit less what other people "think" about them.....it is the least of their concerns and everyone of them has had a pet project or two that they "give back" to in the community hard work, street smarts, and thinking they cant fail are the traits they all have had i havent had the pleasure of meeting too many born with the silver spoon so to say.... the couple i have met have been spoiled, entitled, lazy, and shitty to their employees ok, you DO get it. disregard the above if it seemed preachy.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:26:53 GMT -5
Let's not forget, that the majority of those takers.....Are living on your dime. $100 if you can prove that.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:28:55 GMT -5
sorry, but i watched the video 3x, and not once did it say "rich people are evil". what it said is that they have a sense of entitlement which stems from being wealthy itself. this has broad implications for how they interact with others; implications that i have found (being from that class) are LARGELY TRUE. ie- the oft repeated opinion that the poor are freeloading scumbags out to get a quick lazy buck. i am UNWILLING TO BELIEVE THAT THE RICH (or the poor, or any other class of people for that matter) ARE EVIL, SO I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR ANOTHER EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THEY ARE SO COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT THE POOR. this study actually says something about that, imo. so please, don't keep repeating that ruse that rich people are evil. poor people don't think that, and neither do the rich. you are going to have to do better than simply repeating the same nonsense that we have all heard a thousand times from now on. at least with me, it is no longer working. the video does talk about many negative traits of rich people and I disagree. no. the video talks about the tendency of the rich to look out for themselves, and to think they are entitled to their wealth. the video does not actually discuss WHY this is the case, but i think you can imagine why without much effort. i know i can.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jul 18, 2013 11:29:28 GMT -5
Actually the immigration reform is being spearheaded by a coalition of both dem and republican senators (yes, hard to believe, but true). They're called the Gang of Eight with the two main senators organizing it being McCain and Schumer.
The dems on this coalition have gone to the president and begged him NOT to make this an Obama - or democratic - issue because they know that would cause the dems to rally to it and republicans to rally against it, which they think might kill it. They think the best way to get it approved is a bipartisan effort.
The dems need to pass this because they've promised for years they would. The republicans need to pass it so they can appeal to the hispanic vote - which, like it or not, is a growing segment of voters.
So I don't think, if it passes with this bipartisian support, the dems would be able to take credit for it - not with McCain around to call bullshit.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:30:12 GMT -5
sorry, but i watched the video 3x, and not once did it say "rich people are evil". what it said is that they have a sense of entitlement which stems from being wealthy itself. this has broad implications for how they interact with others; implications that i have found (being from that class) are LARGELY TRUE. ie- the oft repeated opinion that the poor are freeloading scumbags out to get a quick lazy buck. i am UNWILLING TO BELIEVE THAT THE RICH (or the poor, or any other class of people for that matter) ARE EVIL, SO I HAVE BEEN LOOKING FOR ANOTHER EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THEY ARE SO COMPLETELY WRONG ABOUT THE POOR. this study actually says something about that, imo. so please, don't keep repeating that ruse that rich people are evil. poor people don't think that, and neither do the rich. you are going to have to do better than simply repeating the same nonsense that we have all heard a thousand times from now on. at least with me, it is no longer working. the video does talk about many negative traits of rich people and I disagree. If you don't want me to use the word "evil" - fine, no problem As far as poor not "hating" rich and want to be rich - yeah, they want to be rich. Have you ever noticed that if one person from a poor family "makes it", the other family members think that he should be sharing or helping them? I call THAT entitlement, what do YOU call it? And I think that feeling is very predominant among the "poor". 1) no, i have not noticed that. 2) i can think of reasons OTHER than class envy why this might be true. can't you?
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:33:22 GMT -5
May be I don't know enough of wealthy or really rich people, but I haven't observed all that entitlement everyone is talking about then candidly, you are ignoring a lot of information. this board, the MSM, and every rich person i know feels that "they built that".And you and I already had this conversation (although, I don't know why, since you don't seem to remember any of it) - this rich vs poor thing. no, we have not, actually. this study is presenting a whole new facet of this "conversation" for me- one i had never even considered: that the sense of entitlement is not just in people like Romney, but it is a CLASS THING. that NEVER occurred to me before. so, you are mistaken. we have not discussed this before now.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:35:50 GMT -5
here is why i thought this study was fascinating. there is a common sound bite that is repeated over and over again, about how the poor are theiving weasels with their grubby hands in the pockets of the rich- that they are lazy goodfornothings looking for the next meal voucher or government handout. that they are tightwads and selfish, and worthless. the implication is that they lie more, they steal more, and that they only care about themselves. but what this study shows is just the opposite. there is more natural empathy than the rich. they are less likely to lie, steal, or hoard. they are basically....for lack of a better term....good people. this is totally contrary to popular mythology, and my challenge to everyone here is to guess WHY that is the case. hint: look at the social class of the Ministry Of Information. Right...because the prisons are full of rich thieves and robbers. i would invite you to explore why this is the case, rather than simply throwing down the gauntlet, and thinking that the point stands up all on it's own.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:37:44 GMT -5
So it is not the rich people's fault that they are assholes. It is just human nature that if you get rich you become an asshole. this is very crudely put, but i think it is essentially true. i would not use the word asshole, however. i would say that you tend to identify with your friends and neighbors. i think that is a kinder and more accurate way of putting it.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:40:04 GMT -5
And the person taking that dime will spt in your face and tell you its not enough, and that if you don't give him more, you're a greedy, heartless bastard. Or something like that Didn't you watch the video?......You have it all wrong.....Those takers are kind, gentle souls, who are gratefull to you and never wish you any ill will.....Unless you mess with their snap money, their section 8 housing, welfare check, and the free cell phone we furnish them to call about job opportunities......Takers will always be takers.....It's in their DNA. none of that has anything to do with the video, save one thing: based on the study, it is very likely that most poor people ARE, in fact, grateful for those things. so, you can lose the sarcasm any time........
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2013 11:43:17 GMT -5
To me the study is more about human nature than class. If you remove class I think we can all agree (and now that I'm typing we can all agree on P&M I realize I'm about to make myself look stupid) that it is human nature to want to take credit for every good thing that goes our way and ignore or downplay any advantages that we can't control which helped us get there. So it does make complete sense to me that rich people, over time, take all the credit for their success and forget or ignore any advantages they had that contributed.
It's that whole you did not build that vs. the yes I did with my own two hands and no help at all thing. Look at people like Bill Gates. We hold him up as this genius businessman, which he undoubtedly is, that built his empire from the ground up, which isn't nearly as true since he had a pretty big trust fund from mom and dad to get started. Human nature being what it is, over time he's going to downplay the top flight education his parents paid for, trivialize the trust fund, and only remember the decisions he made to get where he is. It's human nature. It doesn't make him an asshole, it makes him just like the rest of us.
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jul 18, 2013 11:44:09 GMT -5
May be I don't know enough of wealthy or really rich people, but I haven't observed all that entitlement everyone is talking about then candidly, you are ignoring a lot of information. this board, the MSM, and every rich person i know feels that "they built that".And you and I already had this conversation (although, I don't know why, since you don't seem to remember any of it) - this rich vs poor thing. no, we have not, actually. this study is presenting a whole new facet of this "conversation" for me- one i had never even considered: that the sense of entitlement is not just in people like Romney, but it is a CLASS THING. that NEVER occurred to me before. so, you are mistaken. we have not discussed this before now. First - let's be clear - "I" don't consider feeling of entitle about certain things as a bad thing. If I earned it - you better believe it I think/feel I am entitled to it. Why wouldn't I? And what "class" are we talking about?
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Jul 18, 2013 11:45:44 GMT -5
But what these studies showed is that even if you didn't earn it, you got it through a random coin flip, you still think/feel that you're entitled and forget that the game was rigged in your favor from the get go.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:46:19 GMT -5
Actually the immigration reform is being spearheaded by a coalition of both dem and republican senators (yes, hard to believe, but true). They're called the Gang of Eight with the two main senators organizing it being McCain and Schumer. The dems on this coalition have gone to the president and begged him NOT to make this an Obama - or democratic - issue because they know that would cause the dems to rally to it and republicans to rally against it, which they think might kill it. They think the best way to get it approved is a bipartisan effort. The dems need to pass this because they've promised for years they would. The republicans need to pass it so they can appeal to the hispanic vote - which, like it or not, is a growing segment of voters. So I don't think, if it passes with this bipartisian support, the dems would be able to take credit for it - not with McCain around to call bullshit. however, it is quite clear if you watch or review the coverage of this bill in the House, that if it fails, due to the fact that Boehner won't shepherd it through the House, the GOP WILL get blamed for it FAILING.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:48:46 GMT -5
To me the study is more about human nature than class. If you remove class I think we can all agree (and now that I'm typing we can all agree on P&M I realize I'm about to make myself look stupid) that it is human nature to want to take credit for every good thing that goes our way and ignore or downplay any advantages that we can't control which helped us get there. So it does make complete sense to me that rich people, over time, take all the credit for their success and forget or ignore any advantages they had that contributed. if you change "ignore" to "tend to lose sight of", i would agree with this statement en todo.It's that whole you did not build that vs. the yes I did with my own two hands and no help at all thing. Look at people like Bill Gates. We hold him up as this genius businessman, which he undoubtedly is, that built his empire from the ground up, which isn't nearly as true since he had a pretty big trust fund from mom and dad to get started. Human nature being what it is, over time he's going to downplay the top flight education his parents paid for, trivialize the trust fund, and only remember the decisions he made to get where he is. It's human nature. It doesn't make him an asshole, it makes him just like the rest of us. BINGO! and actually, if you would like, we can take this a bit further. the tendency to take advantage of opportunity is a trait common in rich people and not common in the poor. it could be said that this study is simply a reflection of those traits.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:51:08 GMT -5
no, we have not, actually. this study is presenting a whole new facet of this "conversation" for me- one i had never even considered: that the sense of entitlement is not just in people like Romney, but it is a CLASS THING. that NEVER occurred to me before. so, you are mistaken. we have not discussed this before now. First - let's be clear - "I" don't consider feeling of entitle about certain things as a bad thing. If I earned it - you better believe it I think/feel I am entitled to it. Why wouldn't I? i can't tell you why YOU wouldn't- but i can tell you why I wouldn't. my businesses depend on the efforts of other people. without their labor- their work- i would not make a dime. therefore, i owe my success to the cooperation of others, and i thank them for it often. i feel NO sense of entitlement that does not include THEM. i think that WE, as a TEAM are entitled to the fruits of our labor. but i never forget the we.And what "class" are we talking about? whatever class you happen to associate yourself with.
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:52:32 GMT -5
But what these studies showed is that even if you didn't earn it, you got it through a random coin flip, you still think/feel that you're entitled and forget that the game was rigged in your favor from the get go. that is precisely the point: YOU FEEL ENTITLED TO YOUR WEALTH WHETHER YOU EARNED IT, OR NOT. it is actually a really interesting result.
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djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
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Post by djAdvocate on Jul 18, 2013 11:53:50 GMT -5
i would note that this whole idea was played out in mainstream technicolor with Obama's "you didn't build that" speech, and the reaction to it.
surely nobody forgot that?
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