Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 31, 2013 20:08:26 GMT -5
"I don't believe in Santa" is just as much a fact as "your mom and dad just pretend to be Santa". Just a different way of saying it, while not propagating a lie. That is where the "respect" part comes in. Believe me, I'm a very logical, "facts", type person--to me it comes down to delivery. I just told my son not to go telling everyone (since he figured it out so young), and if asked, just tell them he "doesn't believe". He didn't have to spill the whole thing for them. Definitely. "I don't believe in Santa" is a true statement, no argument from me. What I was disputing is that a child answering truthfully that there is no Santa is not the same thing as a child insulting another child's doll and play. Not believing in Santa doesn't suck the joy out of anything. We have a pretty rockin' Christmas and Easter around here. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) I'm just going to blame recent surgery and my Superman medication for not being able to come up with a better analogy earlier ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) My point was pretty much the same as yours, don't teach your child to lie to cover for someone else, but also help them understand a way that still takes the other child's feelings into account (the original post was for Quince--I hadn't read yours yet when I typed it up). It's not always easy for me to help my son figure out how to do this, neither one of us has the best tact (and, if he thought something was stupid, he'd say it... so it's been a process). When coworkers and friends ask what I think, I tend to start with "do you really want to know?" because I know it will sound harsh. I am not someone who should work with other people's kids, lol. Completely off topic, but have you ever had to deflect things when it comes to babies? I've seen a handful of dreadfully ugly babies and I just can't choke out an "oh, how cute" so I have to stick with "my, he is so big", or "what a cute outfit", or something similar. If a baby is so ugly they're cute I can do it, but some... yikes...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 20:08:28 GMT -5
I always wrote out the Santa cards with my left hand (I'm right-handed) and used different wrapping paper for the Santa gifts. But at some point, my kids STILL figured it out! In my experience it's generally a primary school kid with older siblings who "spills the beans". At some point that last kid is just BEGGING for the truth and it just seems wrong to lie to them at that point. I don't think there is anything wrong with telling them the truth, if they are really really asking. But, I don't think it was your MIL's place to do so. That's just mean / passive aggressive. How hard it is to tell the child, "You need to ask your parents about that?!" Look at it this way, Wrong ... most of us believed in Santa Claus at some point. Yet we are all still here to tell the tale LOL. I was floored one day when DS1 asked how the Tooth Fairy got all those coins she handed out every time a kid lost a tooth. I'm NOT proud of the fact that I said (because I was really taken aback and wanted to "keep the magic", especially for the younger ones, and it was late, and I was on my own in those days, etc etc etc) "You stupid child, she goes to the bank, just like everybody else!" I still feel badly about answering him like that. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/sad.png) And he's 26 now! LOL! I know it's hard now but I hope you can laugh at this one day! I had a boss who decided that she never lied to her son for any other reason, so why should she lie to him about Santa / the Easter Bunny / the Tooth Fairy? I'm sure everybody LOVED seeing her son going into nursery at 3/4 announcing loudly that his mama told him they were all lies. Do you guys know the NORAD Tracking Santa site? That helped DS3 believe for an extra year or two. ;-) I also told my kids a lot of crazy shite, because it was funny, and I like to encourage using one's imagination. I told my kids there were miniature people in the speakers playing live music. I told DS1 the truth about that the day he dismantled our expensive speakers and couldn't find them inside. I started out by telling him they were on a coffee break, but that didn't work (he insisted I take him to see them), so I had to tell him the truth.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Mar 31, 2013 21:22:43 GMT -5
vonna, I get the feeling you don't have kids. Parenting is hard, so please don't get snippy when a parent says they didn't handle something well. It's hard to admit when I've messed up as a parent and acknowledge that I've screwed up so badly I must apologize to my kids, much less tell other people that I did it. you didn't need to point that out to wrong side. My kids found out because XH and I separated when they were 5 & 9 and they didn't understand why Santa didn't show up at XH's house for them. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/sad.png) Ouch! I haven't even posted on this thread until now. I apologize. I was on my iPad, and I cannot quote a post on there and then be able to type outside of the quote box. I got my "v" names mixed up. ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/melancholy.png)
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Mar 31, 2013 21:27:23 GMT -5
Or that XH is just an asshole so Santa skipped that house over... Too much truth? Yeah, it got even worse when a the next year, he had a new girlfriend who has a niece who lives with her. Santa filled the niece's stocking, but didn't fill my girls' stockings because they were at home with me for Christmas morning. I don't think there's any other word to use besides asshole.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Mar 31, 2013 23:07:10 GMT -5
As I said, I do believe in Santa. While I don't see Santa as a fat guy in a red suit with a funny hat, I do believe in the mystique that creates the image. When, during the holidays, we're searching frantically for that "just right gift" for the children we love so much, finding, wrapping, and placing that gift under the glittering tree, we really ARE Santa. There's something very special - even magical - about the feelings that accompany the Christmas season for those who observe the holiday. Center among those feelings are laughing, happy, beloved children. Yep, I'm very happy to have been Santa at those times, and I'll be thrilled to do it again when my great-granddaughter is old enough to really get into it with us. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/smiley.png) Awesome post. Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real. They are in the hearts of the parents/grandparents, etc. that try to make an occasion special for a child. Life sucks sometimes even for little ones. Whether it's falling down and skinning your knee or getting picked last or getting picked on. There is nothing wrong with trying your best to make some wonderful memories for your kids and for having one or two days a year be a bit magical. And calling it a "lie" to go along with Santa and the Easter Bunny, while technically correct, sounds to me like an over-dramatization that people feel they need because they choose to raise their kids differently. They need some reason to do the things they do so they call those who don't choose their way "liars". Everyone has every right to raise their children as they see fit in this regards. NOBODY has the right to choose how other people's children are raised by encouraging their own children to interfere by "just telling the truth". A parent makes their decisions for their own children - not anybody else's. You don't have to tell your kids to lie. It's a really good opportunity to teach them that sometimes, it's better to just say nothing at all.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 6:12:53 GMT -5
And calling it a "lie" .... while technically correct, sounds to me like an over-dramatization that people feel they need because they choose to raise their kids differently. Funny, but that's pretty much what I thought when I read sentiments like this "Santa, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy are real. They are in the hearts of the parents/grandparents, etc. that try to make an occasion special for a child....for having one or two days a year be a bit magical." Just as "NOBODY has the right to choose how other people's children are raised," it seems odd to expect another family and their children to participate in a lie that someone has chosen to tell. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 7:14:48 GMT -5
Again though, how is it participating to say 'We don't celebrate that. Or I don't believe in that.'
The point is you don't have to look at the other person and say 'You are wrong. You believe a lie. Your parents are liars.'
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 1, 2013 8:00:39 GMT -5
I don't think anyone on this thread has used the word "liars," but to say that the word "lie" is an over-dramatization - well, what else would you call it? However noble the motivation, it IS a lie.
And for parents - when your kid asks you, "How come it's OK for you to lie about Santa but not OK for me to lie about ____?" - how do you answer that?
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 8:08:16 GMT -5
Again though, how is it participating to say 'We don't celebrate that. Or I don't believe in that.' The point is you don't have to look at the other person and say 'You are wrong. You believe a lie. Your parents are liars.' Of course. And when kids are older and able to understand and use more sophisticated social tools, they should absolutely say whatever is truthful yet still spares peoples' feelings and respects their beliefs. Just as the MIL in the OP is old enough to know how to be both polite and truthful by nicely telling the OP's kids to talk to their mother about Santa instead of being a passive-agressive witch and undermining OP by spilling the beans. Different ages of children will have varying abilities in those social skills, though. If one 3 year old comes up to another 3 year old and asks "How does fat Santa fit down a chimney? Do you think Santa is real?" Then the responding 3 year old probably won't have the skills to deflect and say "we don't believe that, ask your parents." The responding 3 year old is probably just going to simply say, "no, Santa's not real." And that's OK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 8:12:30 GMT -5
Is all pretend play a lie? When your three year old comes up to you and says she's a doctor and wants to take your temp, do you call her a liar? Etc.
Those who mantra ' I never lie to children', do you always use brutal honesty, or do you use age appropriate measures, kind of like the med Thread... I mean, when grandpa goes to the hospital, do you give them the 20% chances flat out, or do you say Grandpa is doing everything he can to get better. ?
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 8:25:03 GMT -5
Pretend play isn't a lie, that's why it's labeled "pretend."
Along those lines, your child doesn't truly believe that pretend play is real, does he? Harry Potter is a great example. Kids love Harry Potter and the pretend world of Hogwarts; they'll role play and even practice spells. They know the spells and magic isn't real, but that doesn't diminish how much fun they have and their enjoyment of the play.
So why does Santa have to be real for it to be fun? Kids have just as much fun knowing Santa is pretend. Kids understand and are comfortable with pretend, so why lie about this?
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 8:32:31 GMT -5
So I'm wondering....for all your "truth is a must" parents. Let's say Mary (who is overweight) is sitting in the corner crying because she got picked last for dodgeball at recess. She is crying and asks why nobody wants her to play. I suppose you think it's A-Ok for your child to tell her, "Well Mary? My mom says to be truthful. Nobody wants you to play because you are fat." After all, isn't it "odd" that people expect your child to just "go along"?
Hurting a child is hurting a child. Whether it be about their weight or their beliefs, hurt is hurt. Nobody else gets to choose what does and doesn't hurt a child. As I said, sometimes it's better to just say nothing at all.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 1, 2013 8:34:51 GMT -5
I don't remember ever believing in Santa, and I had wonderful Christmases as a child.
And I'm still curious how to answer when your kid asks why it's OK for you to lie about Santa and isn't OK for them to lie about something else. If I had a great answer for that, maybe I would do the Santa thing with my kid... but I don't, so I'm not.
I think it's different from the "little white lies"/not hurting people's feelings explanation, or even (below) the glossing-over-the-really-bad-parts-of-something explanation. Completely making something up out of thin air isn't really comparable to either.
I was 7 when my grandmother died of cancer. I had no idea she was sick, and was pretty pissed at my parents for a long time because of it. They told me she just had a cold and it was fine. So while you might not want to say, "Yeah, Grandpa's probably going to die," completely concealing is not doing your kid any favors, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 8:37:10 GMT -5
Pretend play isn't a lie, that's why it's labeled "pretend." Along those lines, your child doesn't truly believe that pretend play is real, does he? Harry Potter is a great example. Kids love Harry Potter and the pretend world of Hogwarts; they'll role play and even practice spells. They know the spells and magic isn't real, but that doesn't diminish how much fun they have and their enjoyment of the play. So why does Santa have to be real for it to be fun? Kids have just as much fun knowing Santa is pretend. Kids understand and are comfortable with pretend, so why lie about this? So, you say Santa is coming! (But really you know he isn't right?)... ? How exactly do YOU play Santa without lying, I'm trying to understand.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 1, 2013 8:38:28 GMT -5
First of all, I don't think that situation is remotely comparable. But even if it was, no one here has advocated for their kid to go around telling everyone that Santa isn't real. I think everyone agrees that Wrongside's MIL was in the wrong (no pun intended).
But there's a difference between going around telling other kids the "truth," and being asked to lie so that you don't spoil others' illusions.
Just as there's a difference between walking up to Mary and saying "you're fat," and responding in the affirmative if Mary asks you if she's fat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 8:39:35 GMT -5
Kids need to learn when it is ok to lie and how to do it correctly. They learn this mostly by watching how their parents do it. So lying to them about Santa is an important way to teach them a lesson on social interaction.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 8:45:18 GMT -5
I don't think anyone on this thread has used the word "liars," but to say that the word "lie" is an over-dramatization - well, what else would you call it? However noble the motivation, it IS a lie. And for parents - when your kid asks you, "How come it's OK for you to lie about Santa but not OK for me to lie about ____?" - how do you answer that? I believe I already addressed (in fact, I see it in my post you quoted) that technically, it is a lie (the man in the red suit). So the answer to "what else would you call it" has already been given. And the word "lie" has been used in this thread repeatedly. If a person says somebody is telling a lie...that makes that person a liar. What else would YOU call it? As for how you answer your question, you explain Santa IS real and it's not a lie. Santa is the heart of the ones who want to make a day wonderful for children and that the man in the red suit coming down the chimney with a bag of toys is a story - a very nice story - to bring to life those hearts. Just like any other story. And then you explain, if you know the difference, that there are stories moms and dads tell their children - like Santa and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy - and there are lies that hurt people. There are no "absolutes" in life. There are going to be many many occasions when you have to explain to your child why there is a difference. I'd hate for a mother to have to hear that her child didn't fight an abductor because she had been taught not to hit. There are no absolutes.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 8:47:52 GMT -5
First of all, I don't think that situation is remotely comparable. But even if it was, no one here has advocated for their kid to go around telling everyone that Santa isn't real. I think everyone agrees that Wrongside's MIL was in the wrong (no pun intended). But there's a difference between going around telling other kids the "truth," and being asked to lie so that you don't spoil others' illusions. Just as there's a difference between walking up to Mary and saying "you're fat," and responding in the affirmative if Mary asks you if she's fat. Sorry. No difference. If truth is a must in all situations, then it's a must in all situations. No exceptions. No matter how much it hurts. Whether it's that Mary believes in Santa Clause or Mary doesn't know she's fat. All the same. Truth is a must!
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 1, 2013 8:51:19 GMT -5
I asked that only because you seemed to object to the use of the word "lie" and called it an over-dramatization. If there's a better word, I'm happy to use it.
Now that is an over-dramatization!
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 8:56:17 GMT -5
So, you say Santa is coming! (But really you know he isn't right?)... ? How exactly do YOU play Santa without lying, I'm trying to understand. We definitely use phrases like "Santa is coming." Just like when they were into Harry Potter, I practiced making up spells with them. They just understand that it's pretend and part of the fun. We share the inside joke by an extra knowing smile when we talk about Santa, for example. It's fun, but they don't think Santa is an actual, real person. Not a big deal. When you pretend play with your kids, they know it's not real. Even little ones grasp that idea. You don't have to be a meenie or a stick in the mud about what's "real" and what's pretend - they know. Same thing with Santa in our house. We play, pretend and talk about him even though they know he's not real. Still fun.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 8:56:21 GMT -5
Now that is an over-dramatization! Exactly.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 9:14:49 GMT -5
Now that is an over-dramatization! Exactly. Since you're the only one using this type of over-dramatization, I guess we can now assume you've learned your lesson. ![](http://images.proboards.com/new/tongue.png)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 9:15:56 GMT -5
To me Santa, Easter Bunny, etc. are big old games of pretend. Not a lie, pretend.
As with most games of pretend, kids come around to it. They decide how they want to play. My son was more than willing to give up the game, although maybe because he still got to play it for sis for awhile. I could tell yesterday my 11 year old daughter kind of wished she'd never let on she knew. Sorry if its not the same for you, but for us It's just harder to maintain that magic when everyone is in the know.
and like pretend, as I've said, I've always encouraged them to think, asked them what they thought when they had questions, as they were coming around to the game. But as I've also said, they both kept playing after they knew... They liked the game too...
Ever watch Friends? The one where Pheobe fills in her name for every blank in Mad Libs...and Monica feels compelled to tell her 'you know it doesn't count right, as good mad Libs in our heads'....
To me, this is near the same thing. I mean, if you put Santa presents under the tree, even if you insist on telling your toddler they are pretend, if another kid asks what Sant brought, let them List the toys without prefacing 'but you know he's not really real, right?'
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 9:16:24 GMT -5
And since that's all you can come up with in rebuttal, I guess we can now assume you've learned yours!!
I'm not saying that anybody is right or wrong in how they bring up their children in regards to belief in Santa. I actually don't know for sure what I'd do. I just have an issue with parents who think it's ok to interfere in another parent's choices by encouraging - or at least condoning it - when their child spills the beans and justifies it by saying "we tell the truth".
I do know this. IF I chose to bring up my children to know that Santa is a "game" from day one, I would kick their little behinds if they hurt another child by telling them Santa isn't real. Because one of the first things I DO know I'd teach them is that it isn't ok to hurt others. Some things are better kept "in family". Sometimes it's better to say nothing at all. I know it might happen and I know it does happen but that doesn't mean it should happen.
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milee
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Post by milee on Apr 1, 2013 9:21:42 GMT -5
No need to rebut a Straw Man.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 1, 2013 9:35:51 GMT -5
As opposed to what? Telling their child they were wrong for "spilling the beans"? Punishing them?
There seems to be an assumption that any kid who tells "the truth" about Santa or who makes it known s/he doesn't believe, is doing it for malicious purposes. I don't think that's the case. In my experience, it tends to come out when one kid is going on and on about Santa and then asks another kid what s/he thinks. Most of my friends who were the oldest in their families were very careful to preserve the myth for their younger siblings, even if they normally fought like cats and dogs.
While I want to teach my kids kindness above all, and that they shouldn't deliberately hurt others' feelings, that type of social awareness tends to come with age. I'm certainly not going to instruct my kid to lie to others about it, or punish them if they mistakenly say "Santa's not real" instead of "we don't believe" or whatever the permissible phrase is...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 9:48:18 GMT -5
No prob. I guess I should rethink my stance on not having my kids tell people God isn't real. It really is a travesty they have to go around putting up with other people's lies/pretend/fantasy all the time ![](http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/rolleyes2.gif) Like I've said, I have no problem with a kid saying they don't believe. I DO think there can be maliciousness involved in the 'telling' though ... I mean Jordan didn't just tell wrong's boys he didn't believe, neither did MIL. If a kid knows enough to give that 'special wink' when they talk Santa, they know enough not to 'spill the beans'... I don't sanction calling people liars in this case and honestly don't understand the need for some people to insist, 'but they are liars'...
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 1, 2013 9:54:05 GMT -5
Just like kids learn the real 'facts' about sex from other kids, so do most kids eventually learn Santa is really their parents. At what age they find out is just a matter of chance.
No harm-no foul as to when and how they eventually find out. They will find out. Looking back, it will probably be one of the smallest disappointments in their entire life.
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 1, 2013 10:00:53 GMT -5
My second grad teacher made it obvious. It was also the year my father got cancer.
She was the same one who was talking and laughing while the rest of the class was torturing one of my classmates 15 feet away from her.
I saw that woman again when I was 10. By then, I was bigger than her and gave her a REALLY FIRM handshake. I really wanted to beat her up.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Apr 1, 2013 10:24:30 GMT -5
As opposed to what? Telling their child they were wrong for "spilling the beans"? Punishing them? There seems to be an assumption that any kid who tells "the truth" about Santa or who makes it known s/he doesn't believe, is doing it for malicious purposes. I don't think that's the case. In my experience, it tends to come out when one kid is going on and on about Santa and then asks another kid what s/he thinks. Most of my friends who were the oldest in their families were very careful to preserve the myth for their younger siblings, even if they normally fought like cats and dogs. While I want to teach my kids kindness above all, and that they shouldn't deliberately hurt others' feelings, that type of social awareness tends to come with age. I'm certainly not going to instruct my kid to lie to others about it, or punish them if they mistakenly say "Santa's not real" instead of "we don't believe" or whatever the permissible phrase is... I don't know if you are deliberately missing the point or if you just don't get it. Since you seem to be a highly intelligent woman, I'll assume it's deliberate and you just want to keep on arguing despite the fact there is nothing to argue about. Nobody said you should instruct your kids to lie. What I said is that sometimes, it's better to say nothing at all. I'll say it again in case that's still not clear. I never said anybody should instruct their child to lie. I said sometimes it's better to say nothing at all. I agree that I don't think kids always do this maliciously. They may very well not know how much they are hurting someone else. That's why it's up to the parents to teach them.
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