quince
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Post by quince on Mar 31, 2013 11:47:27 GMT -5
I figured Christmas out when I was 6. I don't think anyone ever pretended that any other holiday things were real. Kind of glad because the idea of these "benevolent" creatures watching and sneaking around while I slept was not particularly reassuring.
We're not planning on maintaining any of these fictions with our children- for you parents who have not played these games, how did you handle your kids talking to other people's children about it- any backlash from parents who are angry your children spoiled the illusion?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 31, 2013 11:48:16 GMT -5
If my child made it to 13 without having the ability to figure this particular "mystery" out, I'd be very worried for him/her. He's not a stupid kid and I'm sure he's wondered and he may even be pretending that he still believes. He might be keeping the fantasy alive for his mom, which in itself is maybe a little odd? If he has continued the pretense for his mom's sake, I'm more inclined to think of it as sweet, thoughtful, and kind than odd.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 31, 2013 12:05:08 GMT -5
I didn't go into it swayed one way or the other to do "santa" with my son, but he heard enough about him from family that we just did a simple stocking and present like I was raised with. Santa has never done all the presents, just one. I don't want to lie to my child, but I don't want to suck all the joy from life either. The ex was raised Jehovah's Witness, so he had never had any Christmas at all and I know he had mixed feelings about everything. For the MIL, the worst thing in the world was that her son might celebrate Christmas (he would give me and my son a gift, he just didn't call the Christmas presents--it was a little awkward handling holidays while I was married, but have to say, that Christmas tree was magical as my MIL wouldn't stay long when I had it set up ) I don't remember the exact moment I found out, but I noticed that the candy for Christmas or Easter was the same candy we sold for school fundraisers (so it was either the Chocolate Santa or the candy coated Easter eggs that gave it away--I was in kindergarten). There another little sibling by then, so we all kept it up until he was old enough to figure it out. It wasn't traumatic at all. I would just say, if you're going to teach your kids there is no Santa, just have them tell other kids (if asked) that they don't believe in him, not "there is no Santa, it's your parents". To me, it's still a thing of respect, just like not having your kid run around to anyone who plays with a doll telling the kid "dolls are stupid and you're stupid for playing with one". Just let the other kids do their thing. I knew that some friends didn't celebrate Christmas--they never tried to ruin it for me, and I never tried to ruin their celebrations for them.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 12:08:01 GMT -5
We're not planning on maintaining any of these fictions with our children- for you parents who have not played these games, how did you handle your kids talking to other people's children about it- any backlash from parents who are angry your children spoiled the illusion? One of our neighbors was very freaked out that my kids might tell her kids. I didn't argue with her, but did gently ask a series of questions like, "So you'd like for me to ask my boys to lie about something to help avoid revealing a lie that you have told?" Since my guys were 3 and 7 at the time, they would probably not have the social awareness to deflect a direct question from her kids, so... ? I'm not judging another parent's choice in this issue, but it's taking things a little too far when an adult is asking another person's child to lie to conceal something. It's probably the difference between a Pritchet and a Dreamer (Modern Family reference), but for us Pritchets, it doesn't make sense that a lie is fun and that somehow it's reasonable to ask other kids to lie to protect the lie you have chosen to tell. Younger kids especially struggle with learning about telling the truth and the idea that it's OK to lie when it's a fun lie and your mommy has said it's OK just wasn't something I thought would be helpful. Not to get into heavy off-topic subjects, but kids who are taught to blindly believe adults and that it's OK to tell lies if you have a good reason are very vulnerable to abuse. Christmas and Easter are still wonderful and fun as a family. You don't need them to believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny to have wonder and fun.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 31, 2013 12:08:42 GMT -5
Man, I NEVER entered my parents room without their permission and my kids were raised the same way. Even so, I always knocked and entered theirs after asking if they were in there once they got old enough to understand some basic manners. I would have been yelling about the violation of my room and privacy, not about them finding out like that. I'd apologize for yelling at them about ruining the holiday but not about them violating my privacy.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 31, 2013 12:08:58 GMT -5
I remember figuring it out when I was about 6 because Santa had the same handwriting as my mother, he used the same wrapping paper, and I got a pair of boots from him that had a Sears tag on them.
I wasn't traumatized.
My brother and sister are 6 and 7 years older than me. They tried to talk me into believing because they thought the present gravy train would end when I stopped believing.
ETA: my mom was very disappointed when I figured it out and tried to convince me there was a Santa, but I was having none of it. She then said Santa is the spirit of the season, so there is Santa in everyone and he's everywhere. Hit ought that was a good answer.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 12:12:06 GMT -5
"I would just say, if you're going to teach your kids there is no Santa, just have them tell other kids (if asked) that they don't believe in him, not "there is no Santa, it's your parents". To me, it's still a thing of respect, just like not having your kid run around to anyone who plays with a doll telling the kid "dolls are stupid and you're stupid for playing with one". "
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Calling a doll and a person stupid are insults and judgments and never OK. Responding to another child's query about Santa by stating that there is no Santa is a statement of fact. Different issues.
While I did teach my kids to be respectful of others and not run around purposefully outing Santa, responding truthfully to a question is not even remotely like insulting someone else.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Mar 31, 2013 12:27:32 GMT -5
"I don't believe in Santa" is just as much a fact as "your mom and dad just pretend to be Santa". Just a different way of saying it, while not propagating a lie. That is where the "respect" part comes in. Believe me, I'm a very logical, "facts", type person--to me it comes down to delivery. I just told my son not to go telling everyone (since he figured it out so young), and if asked, just tell them he "doesn't believe". He didn't have to spill the whole thing for them.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 12:31:08 GMT -5
"I don't believe in Santa" is just as much a fact as "your mom and dad just pretend to be Santa". Just a different way of saying it, while not propagating a lie. That is where the "respect" part comes in. Believe me, I'm a very logical, "facts", type person--to me it comes down to delivery. I just told my son not to go telling everyone (since he figured it out so young), and if asked, just tell them he "doesn't believe". He didn't have to spill the whole thing for them. Definitely. "I don't believe in Santa" is a true statement, no argument from me. What I was disputing is that a child answering truthfully that there is no Santa is not the same thing as a child insulting another child's doll and play. Not believing in Santa doesn't suck the joy out of anything. We have a pretty rockin' Christmas and Easter around here.
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Regis
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Post by Regis on Mar 31, 2013 13:49:55 GMT -5
DS21 and DS19 colored Easter eggs last night and left them out for the Easter Bunny. I got up this morning and hid them so they could find them. I'm glad some traditions don't die easily!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 14:07:14 GMT -5
So, is it a good thing for my Atheist son to go around telling kids God isn't real, he's just imaginary?
I vote for the, 'I don't believe', ' we don't celebrate that' line...
our homeschool group has a mix of people who celebrate/ don't touch certain secular traditions. Some WORRY, actually I've had more people worry about their kids spilling the beans than anything, but I've never saw problem, no two families celebrate anything in exactly the same way...
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Mar 31, 2013 14:58:40 GMT -5
So, is it a good thing for my Atheist son to go around telling kids God isn't real, he's just imaginary? I vote for the, 'I don't believe', ' we don't celebrate that' line... our homeschool group has a mix of people who celebrate/ don't touch certain secular traditions. Some prey, actually I've had more people worry about their kids pilling the bens than anything, but I've never saw problem, no two families celebrate nothing in exactly the same way... I was thinking the same thing. I know plenty of people who would be real offended if someone, even a little kid, told them, or their child that God wasn't real. When thses things, is Santa or God real, come up it is almost never actually about what it is said to be about. IMO it is normally a person, say a kid who wants to ruin it for others. I'm sure there are some who really are upset that others believe in something they don't, but for the most part is is more of a "nener nener, I'm smarter than you" thing. Sadly Wrongside I think this was also partly motivated by your MIL's desire to "get" you and prove to your kids that she is honest unlike you. I am 48 and I still don't understand why people feel the need to spoil other people's joy. If it bothers you just shut up and leave. My Dd is 17 and until a few years ago she believed for all anyone could tell. I know she didn't but she enjoyed the whole experience so much she didn't want it to end. Finally she asked if she could help be Santa for DS. I said sure and ever since she has helped with the Santa and Easter Bunny stuff. DS is almost 10 and I'm sure he probably does know but he enjoys the heck out of all of it so I don't think he will give it away for a while.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 15:01:24 GMT -5
So, is it a good thing for my Atheist son to go around telling kids God isn't real, he's just imaginary? I'd be OK with your atheist son saying this to my boys. My boys would probably talk to me about it and we'd use it as an opportunity to discuss religion, how it's not something that can be proved and that different people believe different things... all of which I'd like them to respect even if they don't personally agree.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Mar 31, 2013 15:04:39 GMT -5
As I said, I do believe in Santa. While I don't see Santa as a fat guy in a red suit with a funny hat, I do believe in the mystique that creates the image. When, during the holidays, we're searching frantically for that "just right gift" for the children we love so much, finding, wrapping, and placing that gift under the glittering tree, we really ARE Santa. There's something very special - even magical - about the feelings that accompany the Christmas season for those who observe the holiday. Center among those feelings are laughing, happy, beloved children. Yep, I'm very happy to have been Santa at those times, and I'll be thrilled to do it again when my great-granddaughter is old enough to really get into it with us.
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lurkyloo
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Post by lurkyloo on Mar 31, 2013 15:26:43 GMT -5
My then-supervisor and his wife handled it really well, I thought. When their twins were ten, they sat them down and explained that no Santa wasn't real...but that now they were part of this giant adult conspiracy, and so they could never ever tell anyone else...just smile knowingly when they were asked if they thought Santa was real and say "Of course he is".
I'm still wondering how I'm going to handle everything, since I was raised in a mildly religious household and DH and I are atheists. I don't want to cram religion down my kid's throat, but there's a lot of culture and some happy memories that go along with religion--singing carols at the church on Christmas Eve springs to mind. Depends on the kid, of course, but I'd hate to deprive my kid of Santa or the Easter Bunny or tooth fairy as well as the positive side of religion. I think childhood can use some of these stories.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 15:33:53 GMT -5
To me Santa and the Easter bunny have very little if anything to so with religion ( yes, we know st. Nicholas)... I call advent our 'countdown to gluttony'... I do wonder sometimes about tradition without underlying meaning, but we are having a good time so ... I'll see what they choose to practice and pass on eventually, I guess. Most of the people I know who don't do Santa and Easter Bunny, don't because they ARE religious, and those things really aren't. Our favorite Christmas movie is The Ref, and holiday story Six to Eight Black Men by David Sedaris... We do some culturally traditional things, but It's not exactly your neighbor's Christmas... Agin though, I'd guess most of us have our own ways of celebrating...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 15:36:57 GMT -5
Are you okay with your son's friends telling him God is real? Sure. He would probably say 'that's hat you believe' or something similar. We have been working on being respectful. I doubt he'd eye roll anymore. He's just always been firmly atheist, since toddlerhood. He's coming around to agnostisim, as he's been going through those deep thoughts of adolescence.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 15:40:45 GMT -5
"Most of the people I know who don't do Santa and Easter Bunny"
We may be talking about different things, then. We still "do" Santa and the Easter Bunny... the kids just know they're just part of our family fun and not a real being. It's not like I don't allow those things in the house and am trying to eliminate them from the planet, I just don't tell them that they are real. We label certain presents from Santa, set out milk and cookies, etc. just like we have Easter baskets that are brought overnight by the Easter Bunny. It's fun and sweet. Has nothing to do with religion.
But then again, we're similar to you in that we celebrate a pretty wide range of things as well. We pick and choose what fits into our family and adopt it if it's a good thing. For a shiksa, I make a mean Latke and both my non-Jewish kids have Menorahs that they light and talk about the Maccabees, for example. We're pretty inclusive.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Mar 31, 2013 15:46:51 GMT -5
We're doing a combination. We do 1 gift from Santa, and I did hide eggs last night, but we talk about being Santa for others, and he knows that auntie hid the eggs at great grandmas yesterday.
Originally we weren't going to do any of it, and I'm almost surprised that my in-laws didn't call cps considering their reaction.
I don't think that our celebrations will change as the kids get older and know. We will still decorate 12+ dozen eggs with my family, hide and hunt for some, get as gift from Santa, etc.
Wrongside-I'd see your mil as being passive aggressive and be pissed too.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 15:47:00 GMT -5
I dont know what that means It means when my my kids have always had strong beliefs about things. Son was max 5, his sister 2/3 when they would argue. He would say Great GG died and that's that, she would say Great GG turned into a baby again. ( no prompt from me). He has always had a low tolerance for 'bible stories'. Although daughter likes them. He himself identifies as atheist. I'm agnostic myself...
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 15:53:06 GMT -5
I understand milee, was talking about those I know who don't celebrate at all. I just don't think I'd encourage maybe as much outright honesty as you on the matter. But then kids will always be kids and talk about what we adults put them thru. ....
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 31, 2013 15:58:05 GMT -5
DDs best friend in K was Jewish. Her mom threatened her with death practically to keep her mouth shut! She did.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2013 17:06:16 GMT -5
I don't remember how my kids found out or how old they were. I don't remember how old I was or how I found out either. Even as a teenager, on Christmas Eve we baked chocolate chip cookies for Santa and made sure we had milk for him. Gifts from Santa still appeared under the Christmas tree after we went to sleep on Christmas Eve. Now that I think about it, maybe she carried on the tradition for my brother, who's 8 years younger than me. I don't remember when he found out either.
My family gets together on Christmas day to spend time together and exchange gifts. The tags on gifts usually say it's from Santa, even the gifts for adults. Each household passes out their gifts at the same time and we tell the kids that Santa left a gift at our house for them, to avoid confusion over which kids know and which kids don't. Then we takes turns opening our gifts, the youngest goes first and we work our way to the oldest. It gets kind of confusing to know who gave what sometimes, since "Santa" gives most of them, but nobody really cares.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 31, 2013 17:15:45 GMT -5
How do you know if your kid is telling you the truth and that they really still believe or if they are just sincerely telling you what they think you want to hear - that they believe? You know kinda like having the right answer for the "Does this make me look fat?" question...
I don't ever remember believing in Santa/Tooth Fairy etc... and I don't remember being particularly traumatized with the knowledge that they aren't real although it did make me very aware that there are lots of "look the other way" and "Nudge Nudge Wink Wink" kinds of things in life that everyone just agrees to go along with. because well, I don't know why... maybe cause they are familiar or tradition?
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Mar 31, 2013 18:11:41 GMT -5
vonna, violagirl I get the feeling you don't have kids. Parenting is hard, so please don't get snippy when a parent says they didn't handle something well. It's hard to admit when I've messed up as a parent and acknowledge that I've screwed up so badly I must apologize to my kids, much less tell other people that I did it. you didn't need to point that out to wrong side.
My kids found out because XH and I separated when they were 5 & 9 and they didn't understand why Santa didn't show up at XH's house for them.
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lynnerself
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Post by lynnerself on Mar 31, 2013 18:52:10 GMT -5
I thought most kids figured it out around the start of grade school when they discuss it with their friends. And that is often when they will ask. My kids were bright and logical, they knew Santa could not fit in a chimney or go aroung the world in one night at a failrly young age. DS was the kind to not rock the boat, he would have played along forever. DD was much more straight forward. She asked the question flat out Christmas of her kidergarten year.
Although it's fun to pretend, I think sometimes it's the parents make too big a deal of it for too long. Why would you deny the truth once the kid was old enough to ask?
I do think the MIL should have refered the question back to the parents however.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 31, 2013 19:21:54 GMT -5
vonna, I get the feeling you don't have kids. Parenting is hard, so please don't get snippy when a parent says they didn't handle something well. It's hard to admit when I've messed up as a parent and acknowledge that I've screwed up so badly I must apologize to my kids, much less tell other people that I did it. you didn't need to point that out to wrong side. My kids found out because XH and I separated when they were 5 & 9 and they didn't understand why Santa didn't show up at XH's house for them. Well there's a good explanation why Santa didn't show up at you XH's house for them-the XH never sent an alternate holiday visitation change of address form to the North Pole for the kids.
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milee
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Post by milee on Mar 31, 2013 19:31:13 GMT -5
Or that XH is just an asshole so Santa skipped that house over...
Too much truth?
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vonna
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Post by vonna on Mar 31, 2013 19:31:18 GMT -5
vonna, I get the feeling you don't have kids. Parenting is hard, so please don't get snippy when a parent says they didn't handle something well. It's hard to admit when I've messed up as a parent and acknowledge that I've screwed up so badly I must apologize to my kids, much less tell other people that I did it. you didn't need to point that out to wrong side. My kids found out because XH and I separated when they were 5 & 9 and they didn't understand why Santa didn't show up at XH's house for them. Ouch! I haven't even posted on this thread until now.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Mar 31, 2013 19:51:01 GMT -5
Underwater, that's just sad. Part of the fun of kids is seeing their joy at holiday time. I miss that so much.
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