Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 25, 2013 14:03:33 GMT -5
As others have said, you can't force someone to get help. Getting your wife into therapy is actually a really good does because it would teach her how to cope & how to help without enabling. Sounds like pretty much everyone is just enabling right now & all that does is drag things out further.
As far as alcoholics, they often are forced into treatment as part of a sentence. However, treatment is completely meaningless unless you agree you have a problem & actually want to fix it. Same thing with the cousin, even if you keep hospitalizing her, it won't help long term unless she wants help. All it does is stabilize her until her next episode.
Your wife needs to learn to distance herself from her cousins bad choices & the resulting consequences. She needs to learn about codependency & develop boundaries. You can't change another person, but you can change how you interact & respond to people that are creating drama & negativity in your life.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 25, 2013 14:04:13 GMT -5
OK, you are a dick. But you're right. But sometimes you don't need to be a dick or be right.
How about "yes, your cousin is a trainwreck, but she's not staying up all night worrying about it, so neither should you."
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 25, 2013 14:06:05 GMT -5
Well, you can also short circuit it by answering the first "you don't take this seriously" with "Of course I'm not taking this seriously. She needs meds and therapy. Until she getting that, I'm not going to take it seriously."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 14:06:13 GMT -5
Just give your wife a high hard one and stop trying to understand her.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 25, 2013 14:10:58 GMT -5
Well that conversation pretty much makes you look like a complete jackass. In that case it looks like your wife just wants to talk/vent & instead of acting like a husband & listening your are being a jerk.
Doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about the cousin, you should be there for your wife. She is worried & upset & you are belittling those feelings. I suggest you find a better way to handle these conversations. If she wants more help beyond just listening, then suggest ways she can distance herself from the situation.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2013 14:14:19 GMT -5
I remember one time I was venting to my husband and he was coming up with all kinds of helpful suggestions and then he got frustrated and said "I don't understand. What do you want me to do??!!" And I answered "I just want someone to listen to me." A real turning point in our marriage. After that, he listened. And every once in a while he would say "Do you want a suggestion?" And sometimes I say "No - I know what I have to do." But more often it is "Yes, please."
Learning to listen to your wife is a real key to a golden marriage.
Learning to pretend to listen to your wife - you will still bring home the silver.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 25, 2013 14:23:08 GMT -5
Well that conversation pretty much makes you look like a complete jackass. In that case it looks like your wife just wants to talk/vent & instead of acting like a husband & listening your are being a jerk. Doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about the cousin, you should be there for your wife. She is worried & upset & you are belittling those feelings. I suggest you find a better way to handle these conversations. If she wants more help beyond just listening, then suggest ways she can distance herself from the situation. Exactly. No one gets a prize for winning an argument with their spouse, and needling your wife into an argument just so you can "win" (which is what your conversation reads as) is pretty immature.
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Formerly SK
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Post by Formerly SK on Mar 25, 2013 14:56:25 GMT -5
Well that conversation pretty much makes you look like a complete jackass. In that case it looks like your wife just wants to talk/vent & instead of acting like a husband & listening your are being a jerk. Doesn't matter if you don't give a shit about the cousin, you should be there for your wife. She is worried & upset & you are belittling those feelings. I suggest you find a better way to handle these conversations. If she wants more help beyond just listening, then suggest ways she can distance herself from the situation. I cannot believe you are so obtuse as to think your conversation was anything but being a jerk. You don't seriously see what an ass you were We have some family members imploding right now (BIL/SIL I posted about recently). The strain has affected my marriage as we are each processing the grief differently. I'm the typical woman in that I need to talk to process it. OTOH, DH is in too much pain to talk about it. We also are hyper sensitive to their issues being contagious and we do NOT want it contaminating us. We are combating this by talking TOGETHER and setting boundaries TOGETHER. We're identifying our needs/fears and making sure we address them...TOGETHER. Because ya know, we want to be TOGETHER. So you have a choice. Continue with the charade you posted and watch your wife's pain and grief dissolve the quality of your marriage (because it will), or step up and be the partner/friend people expect to have in times like this. Help her deal with her cousin. No doubt she needs guidance on how to remove herself emotionally from the situation. Offer it. You can't help the cousin, but you can prevent the cousin's issues from damaging your life.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2013 14:59:31 GMT -5
I think Archie was spot on about Carl needing counseling.
Unfortunately, it is really hard to get someone who doesn't feel like they are hurting anyone and just feels like "that is the way they are" to get help to improve themselves.
I just wish there was something we could say to make people understand that they are, in fact, not perfect and could be better by just making a few good decisions.
Can anyone think of a way to convince someone to get help?
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 25, 2013 15:27:03 GMT -5
I think Archie was spot on about Carl needing counseling. Unfortunately, it is really hard to get someone who doesn't feel like they are hurting anyone and just feels like "that is the way they are" to get help to improve themselves. I just wish there was something we could say to make people understand that they are, in fact, not perfect and could be better by just making a few good decisions.
Can anyone think of a way to convince someone to get help? Best. Post. Ever.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 25, 2013 15:29:01 GMT -5
I think Archie was spot on about Carl needing counseling. Unfortunately, it is really hard to get someone who doesn't feel like they are hurting anyone and just feels like "that is the way they are" to get help to improve themselves. I just wish there was something we could say to make people understand that they are, in fact, not perfect and could be better by just making a few good decisions.
Can anyone think of a way to convince someone to get help? Well, we can switch to trying to get Carl to get help. If anything works, he can try that on his wife's cousin....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 15:29:37 GMT -5
I think Archie was spot on about Carl needing counseling. Unfortunately, it is really hard to get someone who doesn't feel like they are hurting anyone and just feels like "that is the way they are" to get help to improve themselves. I just wish there was something we could say to make people understand that they are, in fact, not perfect and could be better by just making a few good decisions.
Can anyone think of a way to convince someone to get help? Best. Post. Ever. I agree. She said I was spot on. ; )
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 15:53:47 GMT -5
Oh I know I was being a prick/jerk or dick. But after two years, it gets old to talk about the same person that obviously does not want our help and think she is doing perfectly well.
Sorry but you knew you were going to get paid 47k when you accepted the job; that was no shocker. You have a kid, a mortgage, in the middle of custody issues/divorce and you decide to quit because you have too much on your plate and more worried about having fun and relaxing. I wish I could do that too but I got bills to pay.
Fighting to have your child yet when you have him you leave him with your family members/mother so you can go get your nails done/ go out drinking or play paintball?
So no I am not going to lose sleep over that and I cannot muster the sympathy or empathy my wife expects from me.
This girl is taking her mom down with her because she has used all her savings/money to help her daughter or should I say enable. Now she quit or for fired from her job and guess who is left holding the bag? Her mother.
So no I don't understand why is everyone making a big fuss over her; as I told my wife maybe it is time for everyone to let her actually fall and hit rock bottom.
One cousin already said she is done because they always have to do what the girl wants to do and she ends up always having to pick up the tab; so she ends up spending more money than she has. Has she said: who the hell get their nails done twice a week after asking an aunt to pay a bill for them?
And you want to come spend a week at my place? Really? But she cannot drive because she is claustrophobic which is why she is trying to return her fiat. So her solution is flying to MA from NY. Really? So a car is claustrophobic but a plane is not? Ok. My wife suggested the train instead since it is cheaper but she insisted on taking the plane. As long as we don't pay for it.
She does not need our help, she is not losing sleep over her actions so why should we?
As her mom told me two years ago: I am not afraid of debt. Guess what? She is eating her words now per my MIL.
Bankruptcy? Sell the house? No one wants to make the hard choices but just worry/lose sleep about it. 2 years of worrying about it haven't done shit. 2 years of just tiptoeing around the issue has done nothing.
So unless someone is going to face it head on and tell her exactly how it is, worrying sick about it, crying and praying is just passing time.
When someone with a kid, mortgage, bills, absolutely NO savings just up and quits their job because their priority right now is to have fun and relax, every ounce of sympathy and empathy I could muster just died.
Yes I am a dick and jerk, I know!
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 25, 2013 15:59:35 GMT -5
So no I am not going to lose sleep over that and I cannot muster the sympathy or empathy my wife expects from me
You don't really have to give two farts about the cousin. Just fake it. Is it really worth fighting with your wife over just to be right and "tell it like it is?"
If it was my DH I would probably say something like "I understand this is hard for you and that you care about your cousin. Unfortunately you can't help someone who doesn't want to help themselves. You and your family have done all you can (big fat lie, I know). Until she accepts she has a problem you're going to make yourself sick over nothing".
Then I'd probably slip him my copy of Co-Dependent No More and strongly suggest he screen his cousin's calls for awhile.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 25, 2013 15:59:39 GMT -5
I suspect Carl's hangups with counseling (assuming he has them) are similar to WWBG's - a fear that the counselor isn't just going to "fix" their wives, but that they themselves will have to make some concessions. Both seem to come here for validation that they are doing everything correctly and would be on top of the world by now if not for their silly, spoiled wives - and a counselor isn't going to just nod and say "you are SO right" and that their wives goals/feelings/whatever are invalid simply because they don't align with the YM doctrine.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 25, 2013 16:02:28 GMT -5
If it gets so old, then why argue about it? Why not just listen (or pretend to listen) or change the subject? What's the purpose of pissing your wife off and starting an argument?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 16:14:11 GMT -5
So no I am not going to lose sleep over that and I cannot muster the sympathy or empathy my wife expects from me. So no I don't understand why is everyone making a big fuss over her; as I told my wife maybe it is time for everyone to let her actually fall and hit rock bottom. she does not need our help, she is not losing sleep over her actions so why should we? Yes I am a dick and jerk, I know! The first, you are not jerk at all, that I know. After 2 years of what you went trough you should not feel guilty about how you perceive things as truth in kind of hopeless situation. Second, explain that to your wife. So you both can able to come to mutual agreement. Third, show her the empathy of her feeling but firm and be honest about your feeling also.
And give her many hugs....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 16:31:25 GMT -5
I suspect Carl's hangups with counseling (assuming he has them) are similar to WWBG's - a fear that the counselor isn't just going to "fix" their wives, but that they themselves will have to make some concessions. Both seem to come here for validation that they are doing everything correctly and would be on top of the world by now if not for their silly, spoiled wives - and a counselor isn't going to just nod and say "you are SO right" and that their wives goals/feelings/whatever are invalid simply because they don't align with the YM doctrine. Lol, this could not be further from the truth. One of the major reasons I know for a fact I am not getting married again if I ever get divorce is I know I am not easy to live with. I have mood swings I am a dick with a capital D I do not do romantic moves I am stubborn and headstrong I should learn to just shut up I am impatient I don't care to do half the things my wife wants to do I am selfish with a capital S I do not care to do nice things just because other guys are doing them I am a control freak I refuse to end up like my father I refuse to just accept things because that what guys are supposed to do I am very proud and have a big ego Insult me once and you won't have the opportunity to do it again (comes with the pride). And that is not even 1/4 of the things that are wrong with me. I am far from perfect, heck I am the total opposite of that. I don't need a therapist to tell me that but I was more than willing to pay for one, but my wife was the one against it... Not me No one can point out my faults better than me and I am a work in progress every day I am alive. But that has also made me very impatient of others folks behaviors when the solution to me seems so obvious. My wife might be spoiled but she is not silly, get it right ! ETA: I have a 1.2k couch seating in my leaving room with a 3k dinning room set, planning to buy a house that YM does not think I can afford because I don't have 2 years of savings and a 30k car for my wife. I am not living the YM doctrine, that ship has sailed!!! I am the wrong example of YM doctrine, sorry to disappoint . Also planning to buy myself a spinning bike for my birthday (find one used for $250 instead of 1k new) ; just booked a hotel to take my wife to the Berkshires for our 10 year Anniversary in May and also looking into booking a cruise for our 5 year wedding anniversary in August. I am in YM hell and loving every second of it.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 25, 2013 17:01:24 GMT -5
If it gets so old, then why argue about it? Why not just listen (or pretend to listen) or change the subject? What's the purpose of pissing your wife off and starting an argument? This. There are better ways to make your point than to be an ass to your wife. You have to know by now that sort of attitude will only piss off your wife, yet you do it anyway. Then you come here to bitch about your wife under the guise of trying to help the cousin. The same cousin who you insisted just a few weeks ago was completely fine. The truth is you can do nothing to help your cousin, but you sure can do a lot to help your wife get through this & lessen the impact on your marriage. Start by not creating fights for fun when this is clearly hard on your wife. You both need to stop letting the cousin come between you & that means honest (but not cruel) discussions need to happen.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 17:01:56 GMT -5
Live your life the fullest the way you see it fit, cawiau. I can see a lot of love in your heart! And your reasoning makes a sense to me. And you know it. There's no wrong, right way's to live your life, is there? As long as you do it with good intention. And you are the one who knows about your situation. Give your Mrs. a lot of hug's. And tell her, you love her...... Understood.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 25, 2013 20:22:35 GMT -5
I think I have a solution that might help Carl & the wife. I'm rather blunt and logical and don't really do the sappy stuff - my best friend can be the exact opposite. We have a lot of things in common, but those differences can cause the worst fights. (And even worse her threshold for a fight is WAY below mine, so she thinks it's a knock-down-drag-out fight and I'm like we're just debating! I'm trying to get you to see my side!) So several years ago we came to an agreement that if we're talking and one of us tells the other to stop, we stop. No questions asked, immediate change in topic or someone goes for a walk while we cool off (unless, of course, the topic is severe enough that harm could be done - but that has never arisen yet). To be perfectly honest she pulls the "stop" card way more than me, but it's my cue to shut up and leave her alone. (And, not sure if this applies to Carl & wife, that she's no longer having fun. I grew up in a family that debated a lot so those conversations are fun to me, she sees them as arguing.)
Granted, it's not a marriage, but we've been best friends for 8 years and I don't think we'd be as close without acknowledging that part of each other and coming up with the cue - instead of the situation dissolving into tears or anger and bewilderment. (Actually, I'm quite certain. She met a new friend of mine that loves to debate like me and is quite logical - she freaking can't stand him. Made quips to me several times of how can I stand him....yeah, I've neglected to point out that I share the qualities she hates in him.)
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quince
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Post by quince on Mar 25, 2013 21:02:05 GMT -5
Maybe your wife needs a therapist so she can vent to someone without venting to you?
We don't "vent" in our household. We look for solutions or shut the hell up. I would have a hard time dealing with a spouse who just wanted to complain and drain me emotionally while I make sympathetic cooing noises and try to figure out how little attention I can pay to what they are saying while still managing to interject the correct comments at the correct times.
For a brief, current crisis, I'm totally there to listen. If you're complaining to me about the same thing for the fiftieth time after a year of actionless bitching, please leave me out of it.
Um. But you were kind of an asshole. I get that it's easy to be that, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't get much better a reaction out of your wife by just saying- "we can't fix it, I would prefer not to hear about it anymore.", so you might as well entertain yourself but...bleh. Not nice. It's nice to be nice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2013 23:11:26 GMT -5
Does your wife need the drama? Some people quite simply do, even if it is emotionally draining. With the amount of drama in the extended family, it might just be that this is how they like to & choose to live. Allowing herself to get sucked in is being a participant in the drama and is her choice.
Cousin might be doing her best to find a new husband to take care of her, hence the priority on nails and play time. Might be the best avenue for her since she is having difficulty taking care of herself & in fact does not seem to have ever done so since MIL has been footing the bills of excess for years.
There are many dynamics going on in this family story & I doubt you get the whole truth from anyone involved. I would make an extra effort to ensure that you don't let this situation adversely affect your marriage. Your wife's involvement + your comments make it seem like you are creating a very negative scenario. I'd let her know that for the serenity of your marriage, you want her to limit her interaction with cousin since it is having an adverse affect on her. It is her choice to allow cousin to tell her stories etc, but she's bringing the stress and negative impact into your marriage as a result of her choice to just listen and not judge. If she needs to vent/talk, she should say what she needs to say to cousin, not be upset about it with you later.
Is she worried at all that the crazy runs in the family? Maybe you two need to have a discussion about what you would do for/with each other if you found yourselves in this soap opera of a life. How would you help each other & how would you make sure that the one that's gone off the deep end stops, listens, and remembers this conversation from years ago. Maybe she feels that if this happened to her, you'd be a jerk and take off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2013 9:33:19 GMT -5
"Sorry but you knew you were going to get paid 47k when you accepted the job; that was no shocker. You have a kid, a mortgage, in the middle of custody issues/divorce and you decide to quit because you have too much on your plate and more worried about having fun and relaxing. I wish I could do that too but I got bills to pay. Fighting to have your child yet when you have him you leave him with your family members/mother so you can go get your nails done/ go out drinking or play paintball? So no I am not going to lose sleep over that and I cannot muster the sympathy or empathy my wife expects from me." I am pretty sure everybody here agrees with you that the cousin is laying in the bed she made. What everyone is saying has nothing to do with the cousin, it is all about how you treated your wife with that conversation. I am guessing that you do this a lot just because of the "attitude" you seem to have here. I am not saying that as an insult. Being honest does not equal being a jerk. Being honest is a good quality, being a jerk is not. The people who suggest counseling for cawiau, from what I can tell he would never go to counseling because of the same reasons he was talking about why he doesn't need any improvements at work. "Also planning to buy myself a spinning bike for my birthday (find one used for $250 instead of 1k new) ; just booked a hotel to take my wife to the Berkshires for our 10 year Anniversary in May and also looking into booking a cruise for our 5 year wedding anniversary in August." You are missing the . Honestly, I don't think anybody cares if you burn your money, take vacations with it, or save or whatever you do. It is your life.
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Mar 26, 2013 9:35:19 GMT -5
If it gets so old, then why argue about it? Why not just listen (or pretend to listen) or change the subject? What's the purpose of pissing your wife off and starting an argument? makeup sex?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Mar 26, 2013 9:50:57 GMT -5
If it gets so old, then why argue about it? Why not just listen (or pretend to listen) or change the subject? What's the purpose of pissing your wife off and starting an argument? makeup sex? That's kind of like breaking a plate over and over because the craft glue you use to fix it gets you high. I would think after a certain point, things get harder to fix...
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Mar 26, 2013 9:55:06 GMT -5
Wasn't it Thyme who said she knew a couple that insisted picking fights and pissing each other off was fun and kept the relationship "spicy". Then later divorced?
I'm pretty blunt and the people that love me are aware of it but I know when I need to be tactful. Sometimes "telling it like it is" just isn't worth it.
I don't give two farts what happens to DH's niece, but my MIL DOES. I am not going to point out everything niece has done wrong and why she deserves what she got. It isn't worth the damage it'll do to my relationship with my MIL.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2013 10:01:11 GMT -5
"That's kind of like breaking a plate over and over because the craft glue you use to fix it gets you high. I would think after a certain point, things get harder to fix... " Sometimes love, make-up sex, gifts, whatever is not enough to undo the damage you do. Not to compare you to my ex (because I know you are nothing like him) but I told him before the divorce, before I got a lawyer, before things go so f.ugly, "I may take the things you do/say to me and it may look like I will always be okay with your unkind words but believe me there will come a time I will be done and nothing will change my mind then". It wasn't in those words exactly but you get the point. And that is exactly what happened. When I was done, I was f. done!
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Mar 26, 2013 10:05:22 GMT -5
My DH is very blunt, and over the years it has caused some hurt feelings and sadness on my part for feeling as though I'm just not good enough in most areas. I've tried to tell him again and again, most times it's not WHAT he is saying it's HOW he says it.
The inflection in his voice, his choice of words, even though he would never intentionally hurt my feelings, I still tend to shut up and crawl back into myself for safe keeping.
Be careful Carl, you can't read another persons mind, so choose your words carefully, as what you are saying comes across as mean, crass and judgemental even though you never intended it to be that way.
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whoami
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Post by whoami on Mar 26, 2013 11:10:22 GMT -5
I'm pretty blunt and the people that love me are aware of it but I know when I need to be tactful. Sometimes "telling it like it is" just isn't worth it. I don't give two farts what happens to DH's niece, but my MIL DOES. I am not going to point out everything niece has done wrong and why she deserves what she got. It isn't worth the damage it'll do to my relationship with my MIL. Replace "niece" with MIL in this scenario and this is us. I dislike MIL. I think she is a mean, nasty pot stirring manipulator who has alienated the vast majority of people in her life because of her attitude. She too, is "blunt" but has no filter and no social graces whatsoever. I refuse to have anything to do with her. Whenever DH tells me about her latest drama, my head nearly explodes for the internal eyerolls and tongue biting I have to do to keep my big mouth shut. I say nothing. DH isn't stupid. He doesn't need me to explain to him why it always falls on him to be the one to deal with all crap even though she has family where she lives. He understands why no one wants to deal with her and accepts my decision to have zero to do with any of it. Even though he knows she is difficult, he doesn't want to hear me bad mouth his mother. It would be nothing more than rubbing salt in the wound.
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