Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 1:38:06 GMT -5
School socialization takes many forms, it isn't just from authority, but also peers. Socialization of accepted norms has always been part of the process. Pheonix. Reading a book about people in a subgroup, normalizing and humanizing them would be part of the process you describe. So why wouldn't Two Mommies be an acceptable book, if your example were applied to lesbians instead of Muslims? Well, I'm going to have to bow out of the "two mommies" discussion, we'll just keep going around in circles. Let's just agree to disagree and move on.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 1:40:53 GMT -5
Kids should learn that calling people names is wrong. I don't see that as a controversial thing. You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. I don't know what school you went to, but in my school, kids called each other names all the time. Kids make fun of each other, that's just the way it is. You can do all the "education" you want, it's just in their nature.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 12, 2013 6:13:46 GMT -5
in my opinion, having my child challenge my teaching on something because they question why I hold the opinion I do is far different than putting my foot down that they can't sleep over at Joey's house because I said so. I'd guess that dj would agree with that statement, and I'd also like to think that you know the difference between the two. critical thinking isn't needed for the latter, in any case. Tell that to your kids. 'Critical thought' isn't a skill that can be taught. It's an innate curiosity, and a willingness to look further into issues to resolve unknowns or contradictions that arise in our minds. What schools can produce is critical individuals. Cynics. Children, teens, and adults that assume their rudimentary grasp of logic, semantics, and rhetoric gives them the right and ability to do as they please so long as they can exhaust any debate opponent (including parents) trying to speak truth to reason. And you're deluded if you don't think they could talk you under the table with 'perfectly logical' reasons they should be permitted to go to Joey's house. Stop embracing the illusion that critical thinking can be taught by any other means than instilling a love of learning in the learner, and stop repackaging the "talk your parents under the table" student toolkit under different names and using it as filler in your lackluster education system. 100% disagree. Critical thinking is a skill that can be taught and it something my Mom was very keen on teaching all her children starting at a very young age. What you and Republicans either forget or do not care about is if you teach kids to respect all authority no matter what you have just bred a nation of victims of sexual abuse, etc. They become a predator's wet dream whether that predator is a criminal, a person who wants to live off their hard work and money or abuse them sexually like good ole Jerry. Critical thinking and a love of learning or not the same things. Not even close. Critical thinking is the ability to turn stuff on its ear, look for 'rightnesses' and 'wrongnesses' versus just sucking up knowledge. I think it is because my Mom constantly came up with examples that my ability to disect things I have little knowledge on is so dead on. It may be why my Dad thought I'd make a great engineer because I can easily find stress points and weaknesses in physical objects but I can see it with people too. My Mom is an honest Lutheran so I wasn't taught how to exploit those people weaknesses like perhaps some political dynasties possibly learn from day one. Lastly, as a parent or even an individual I'm pretty confident I could get my child or children to follow my lead when it is really important. However, unlike you, I want to protect them when I am not there by teaching them how to know when someone or something is hinky and how to protect themselves. Sometimes when I read stuff like DJ's OP I wonder if part of the Republican party is just trying to keep Pedophlia where they think it should belong - in the home. (Not kidding at all BTW!)
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 12, 2013 6:29:32 GMT -5
Hmmm, I guess you guys went to different public schools than I did. We studied the Islamic empire and religion extensively my Junior year of high school. We never did study Hinduism much. Though I think that was more due to time constaints. Which is another thing to consider. World history is vast and so are the different cultures. People can spend their entire lives studying them. There's only so many hours in a day, so teachers often have to pick and choose what to cover. If given a choice, I can see why most would choose western civilization to focus on, since that has the most direct impact on how we live today. But that's beside the point, I think the school year should be far longer than it is. Phoenix, all public schools are not the same. In fact most curriculm descisions are on a state level and then you have county-wide intiatives, etc. Speaking as someone who grew up with a Mom teaching in the public school system(and subbed allover a district spanning many towns) I find it ridiculous that many P&Mers want to pretend public schooling in some monolithic monster. A school in Far Hills, NJ. is going to be far different than a school in Camden. A big ass regional school in say Flemington is going to be different than a smaller school like say Governor Livingston HS in Berkely Heights, NJ. What is taught goes in and out of fashion as the years pass as well. Some folks only 5 years older than me learned to write with real pens back in the day and I think I started with the messy ink cartridge ones which no longer exist anywhere. I had to take a special class in comparative religion to have any discussion about Islam or Hinduism that I remember.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 12, 2013 6:35:35 GMT -5
There is an enormous difference in denying its existence, and in leaving it up to the parents to teach their children about it. Schools are not supposed to exist as places of social indoctrination. They are supposed to be places of basic education. If you look at history, this really isn't true at all... Heck, you look at certain third world countries today I bet you can find some really interesting examples. I wonder how many are old enough on this board to remember images of Chinese children being indoctrinated to almost worship Chairman Mao and some images I remember of school children in the USSR that weren't too different ... especially shots of school kids being prepped to be Olympic athletes, etc. Schooling does mold people. Just like simply studying different languages gets you to think in the way of that language versus your native tongue.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 12, 2013 6:38:22 GMT -5
Schools serve more than one purpose, as I see it. They're not just there to shovel facts in and have them parroted back. They're also there to assist in the socialization of children. Children need to learn about the world around them so they can properly adjust to, and react to the different cultures and personalities with which they'll be confronted. It's not "just gi'me the facts, ma'am". There's more to it than that, and that is as it should be. As to critical thinking, it is, indeed, a process. It can be developed. While you cannot teach a person to think (they either do, or they're an amoeba), but you can help an individual to develop a manner of thinking that leads to logical, reasoned results. Personally, I think everyone is right about what critical thinking is. It is a process, but Virgil is right in the sense that people can choose wheather or not to engage in it. And I have to disagree, Kids don't need to be taught HOW to react to different cultures and personalites with which they'll be confronted, they need to be taught the facts AND how to analyze them by developing critical thinking skills so they can make up their own mind and react as individuals, rather than parroting what their teachers taught them as HOW to react. So you are behind all those parents who teach their kids to be Neo-Nazis or steal from people?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 6:44:15 GMT -5
Fun, then what do you think schools are for? No socialization? No critical thinking? What then? oped, Who says anything about No socialization in school, But in my experience, peoples has a tendency to congregate with their own kind.I remember reading a quote from wise man, that says. Choose your friends wisely, your wording is like yourself. Speak carefully with care.
About the critical thinking, here is more information for you. I let's you be the judge. www.criticalthinking.org//
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 6:53:45 GMT -5
Socialization happens in schools without it being a direct goal, peers socialize, adults socialize... Heck, you insistence not to include the two mommies book is a tool of socialization. There need to be a balance, in that we teach critical thinking in order to give kids a way to question, among other things, this socilizatuon... Otherwise it's just indoctrination. That is what I see the GOP doing in the OP, voting for indoctrination. Texas wants creationism in the schools, and no critical thinking... They want to sanitize history, and no critical thinking. Etc. Texas is a state curriculum state... And they help control textbook creation because of it.
Despite the fact that Socialization is always the 'BIG question' in homeschooling, and what people always ask about in fact I keep my kids out of school for socialization reasons as much as academic ones. I personally think we need less industrialized socialization... But to suggest it doesn't exist in public schools, isnt one of its aims, is naive at best. It is one of the reasons we also need critical thinking instruction.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 6:56:41 GMT -5
Fun, then what do you think schools are for? No socialization? No critical thinking? What then? oped, Who says anything about No socialization in school, But in my experience, peoples has a tendency to congregate with their own kind.I remember reading a quote from wise man, that says. Choose your friends wisely, your wording is like yourself. Speak carefully with care.
About the critical thinking, here is more information for you. I let's you be the judge. www.criticalthinking.org// Umh, your link actually supports the teaching of critical thinking ETA: and you said " In my minds, school is not part of equation of learning critical thinking skills, That's just my opinion."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 7:00:26 GMT -5
I said, you do the judging. When you can see things clearly, you will finds the answer. By the way, I am done with this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 7:11:17 GMT -5
Actually going to order some of the guides on that site fun. I use a lot of Critical Thinking Company, Thnking Toolbox and Fallacy Detective, etc. but there are one good high shool guides, higher level things on the link you provided.
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grits
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Post by grits on Feb 12, 2013 7:40:38 GMT -5
You should learn that at home before you even start kindergarten. I don't know what school you went to, but in my school, kids called each other names all the time. Kids make fun of each other, that's just the way it is. You can do all the "education" you want, it's just in their nature. Social indoctrination is trying to change basic human nature. The United States spends more money per student than most other nations. Yet, its education system has fallen way behind them in math, and science. Education needs to return to getting the basics taught to most children before it starts trying to induce social change.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Feb 12, 2013 9:28:19 GMT -5
I don't know what school you went to, but in my school, kids called each other names all the time. Kids make fun of each other, that's just the way it is. You can do all the "education" you want, it's just in their nature. Social indoctrination is trying to change basic human nature. The United States spends more money per student than most other nations. Yet, its education system has fallen way behind them in math, and science. Education needs to return to getting the basics taught to most children before it starts trying to induce social change. What are the basics? Intelligent Design? Creationism?
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 9:30:57 GMT -5
I'm from a pretty solidly middle class family where politeness was required. I went to a very poor school district but tolerance was expected Then, why would you make the silly statement that you did? I recognize not everyone was raised the way i was. The teachers spent some time with kids for less involved parents discussing how to treat people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 10:03:56 GMT -5
Public school was ALWAYS about social change, it was about homogenizing varied groups of immigrants into a cohesive social/ political body...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 11:00:01 GMT -5
the question is
how much do we want the school to differentiate from what the parents want
a lot of children are being home schooled just because the parents dont want their children exposed to everything all at once
you have a controlled environment, and you can teach them what you want, in the timeframes that you feel comfortable with
i understand what Texas is trying to do....just not sure this is the way to go about it
like others on this board, i think school should stick to the basics especially in the early grades
but at some point, kids need to be exposed to the "real world"
they need to be able to think for themselves....at what point do you stop "protecting" them, and let them see the world for what it truly is
that is the question....how early is too early?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 11:14:47 GMT -5
Wow, I seem to have missed all of the fun yesterday. Critical thinking has a specific meaning in pedagogy. As others have noticed, it is a set of skills. Innate curiosity is a wonderful gift and will help children want to explore their world. Innate curiosity leads people to ask questions. But critical thinking means they don't necessarily stop when they get their question answered - they evaluate the quality of the answer before they google the next thing that interests them. Case in point: wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_cats_are_there_on_the_moonAnother example would be the book "Heather Has Two Mommies" The GOP would have us reject this book because the title sounds controversial and against the "Judeo-Christian values on which our country was founded." Critical thinking would suggest we should read the book, so we can hold its actual contents up to our value set, before we decide if it is appropriate for children or pushing a specific agenda.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 12, 2013 11:31:08 GMT -5
the question is
how much do we want the school to differentiate from what the parents want
Great question to ask of school board candidates and continuing to ask once they are elected. If you have strong opinions on the topic, maybe it is a sign you should be the one running and serving your community.
a lot of children are being home schooled just because the parents dont want their children exposed to everything all at once
... One of the great things about our country is that parents do have choices on where to educate their children.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 11:58:57 GMT -5
"What are the basics? Intelligent Design? Creationism?"
Well, I guess opinions vary, but when I think of "basics" I think of traditional school subjects, math, history, science, english/language arts ect.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 12:00:41 GMT -5
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question.
Why is it that Oped and Cereb claim that public schools teach children social norms like getting a job and working, and that one of the main purposes is to "socialize them" but then originaly rail against the idea of children learning critical thinking to question authority. Those two ideas seem at odds with each other.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 12:03:04 GMT -5
"What are the basics? Intelligent Design? Creationism?" Well, I guess opinions vary, but when I think of "basics" I think of traditional school subjects, math, history, science, english/language arts ect. And what do you do when the powers that be don't want to teach evolution because it's against their values, despite it being a basic tenet of science education?
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 12:03:07 GMT -5
And by the way, I never said I agreed with Texas. I think studying different cultures is a good thing, and any good idea or value system should stand up to probing.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 12:04:18 GMT -5
I still haven't gotten an answer to my question. Why is it that Oped and Cereb claim that public schools teach children social norms like getting a job and working, and that one of the main purposes is to "socialize them" but then originaly rail against the idea of children learning critical thinking to question authority. Those two ideas seem at odds with each other. You should question social norms, otherwise DH would probably own some slaves and I wouldn't be able to vote.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 12:04:55 GMT -5
"And what do you do when the powers that be don't want to teach evolution because it's against their values, despite it being a basic tenet of science education?"
I'd tell those powers that be that knowledge is power. No one forces you to accept evolution, and if you're going to argue against it, you should know quite a bit about it. And that if you are really comfortable with your ideals, they should stand up to challenges and probing.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 12:05:38 GMT -5
"And what do you do when the powers that be don't want to teach evolution because it's against their values, despite it being a basic tenet of science education?" I'd tell those powers that be that knowledge is power. No one forces you to accept evolution, and if you're going to argue against it, you should know quite a bit about it. And that if you are really comfortable with your ideals, they should stand up to challenges and probing. Which is critical thinking.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 12:06:31 GMT -5
"You should question social norms, otherwise DH would probably own some slaves and I wouldn't be able to vote."
Okay, so you're saying that a school's job is to promote social change, not teach social norms like Cereb suggested?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2013 12:07:42 GMT -5
"What are the basics? Intelligent Design? Creationism?" Well, I guess opinions vary, but when I think of "basics" I think of traditional school subjects, math, history, science, english/language arts ect. Evolution is pretty basic, traditional science concept that some parents object to. Once you learn to read, the question becomes what should you read. Parents have very different views on that one. History requires a lot of editing for time and a lot of framing against our current social norms. It's all messy.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 12:10:00 GMT -5
"You should question social norms, otherwise DH would probably own some slaves and I wouldn't be able to vote." Okay, so you're saying that a school's job is to promote social change, not teach social norms? No. Schools should teach some social norms and whether or not they teach it, they do it. Schools teach critical thinking skills and you use those skills to fight against social norms if you see fit. Schools have a vested interest in social norms. It makes those job easier.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Feb 12, 2013 12:12:59 GMT -5
"Evolution is pretty basic, traditional science concept that some parents object to. Once you learn to read, the question becomes what should you read. Parents have very different views on that one. History requires a lot of editing for time and a lot of framing against our current social norms.
It's all messy."
Yes, all you've said is true. Everyone has a opinion on what's appropriate to teach kids and when, and we have to teach them something. And as you said, the question always arises with evolution and "heather has two mommies" as to wheather or not it's "exposing kids to the world" (which is good) or trying to push an agenda/indoctrinate (which is bad).
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2013 12:35:41 GMT -5
And there are always those people who think that exposing kids to other cultures or truthfully answering a question about sexual orientation is considered indoctrinating.
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