mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 8, 2012 8:16:54 GMT -5
"So... Are you saying workers are being used, as in not benefiting or being compensated as they should be or could be? And only being used to keep capital's propped up only? And when no longer needful are then kicked to the curb after serving their capital for years with very little to show after their labor?"
Nope... not what I meant... nothing to do with how both groups are compensated... I am referring only to the "tax treatment".... labor is taxed at 35% (max) + FICA and Medicare.... capital is taxed as low as 15% (no matter where the "gain" is made, if one profits from investing in China in a plant that takes American jobs away because the Chinese plant stole US intellectual property then the US investor pays a 15% tax in the US)....
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 8, 2012 8:18:45 GMT -5
"If the premise of the OP is accurate, this does not explain the dire conditions in the most poverty stricken, third world hell holes in Africa and other countries around the global where there is no wealth and the entire population lives in squalor. "
...Education is the difference....which is something we are falling behind in with policies like teach to the test and keeping bad teachers due to poor contracts agreed to by politicians.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 8, 2012 8:38:51 GMT -5
If the premise of the OP is accurate, this does not explain the dire conditions in the most poverty stricken, third world hell holes in Africa and other countries around the global where there is no wealth and the entire population lives in squalor. You mean like Ethiopia? PHOTOS: Lifestyle of the super rich in Ethiopia Elias | March 7th, 2008
There are two ways to be rich or super rich in Ethiopia: 1) Be a member of the Tigrean People Liberation Front (Woyanne); or 2) Be a Woyanne butt-kisser. There is no other way. The photos below show how one of these super rich individuals, the owner of Sunshine Construction, lives in Addis Ababa. It is to preserve and expand this ill-gotten wealth that Woyanne will fight tooth and nail to stay in power as long as it can no matter the cost to the people of Ethiopia. It is a good thing to be rich, but not through cruel exploitation and subjugation of other people. www.ethiopianreview.com/content/2063
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fairlycrazy23
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Post by fairlycrazy23 on Oct 8, 2012 8:43:05 GMT -5
What I find funny about the peddlers of the fair tax.... do you agree with state and local sales taxes? Do you remit the tax to your state when you buy so meting in a neighboring state to bring it home... or do you potentially commit a "crime" (for most civil) and not report it as may be required.... the fair tax is a sales tax....and it will not, in my opinion, solve our problem of tax fairness or equity....states will not miraculously give up their sales tax, their income taxes.... Congress will not give up Medicare and Social Security taxes..... Congress will not give up the income tax.... you may get what you want, as a new level of tax, just like the Europe and other countries who have income taxes and VATs (it's the same things as this fair tax). What states do is not really part of the fair tax, but if Congress doesn't eliminate all income tax but implements a sales tax as well then that is not the fair tax and VAT is not the same as a sales tax, it is much worse. A federal sales tax on all goods and services replacing all income tax would eliminate all the loop holes and other games that the government and tax payers have to play, you buy something you pay tax, you don't buy something you don't. You buy baby formula you pay, you buy a yacht you pay. A refund would be given so that you don't pay taxes on the basic necessities at some some level, you make 30k you get the same refund that somebody that makes 30million. There is no special interests it is all the same. Another separate system would be needed to pay out welfare to the poor. Any welfare should be administered at the state level because the Federal Government doesn't really have the power to tax some people to give to others, but since that ship as sailed it doesn't really matter.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 8, 2012 8:52:22 GMT -5
VAT = a tax on the value of goods and services Fair tax = a tax on the value of goods and services
hmmmm....
So, small business will need to administer a new level of tax.... presently they have to deal with
State sales tax (which defines certain items as taxable and others as not) Federal and State Income tax (most states conform to federal rules with some modifications)
Under a fair tax State sales tax (which defines certain items as taxable and others as not) State Income tax Fair tax (administered by who.... more than likely a federal agency like the IRS)
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 9:34:16 GMT -5
You're talking to someone that doesn't believe we should tax the production of income, savings, or investment AT ALL. Taxes should be at ZERO for anything productive. Consumption should largely be tax-free as well. We should tax imports, and we should tax consumption past a certain point- and some items should be taxed at dollar number one. I'm really a believer in the www.fairtax.orgI'm for giving everyone, regardless of their earnings, their entire paycheck to keep for themselves. i will do my best to make sure that the "fair tax" never happens. i am convinced it will be the end of us if it does. edit: i love the fact that they use the words of that great economist and president CALVIN COOLIDGE in this video. the perfect spokesman for a totally insane idea that should be shitcanned like a $2 Chinese end wrench. It will be the end of statism. When citizens can control how much tax they pay, when we can express our disapproval with a general consumption strike-- then we'll see a lot less lag time between when bad policy is proposed or passed and when it dies.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 9:35:24 GMT -5
VAT = a tax on the value of goods and services Fair tax = a tax on the value of goods and services hmmmm.... So, small business will need to administer a new level of tax.... presently they have to deal with State sales tax (which defines certain items as taxable and others as not) Federal and State Income tax (most states conform to federal rules with some modifications) Under a fair tax State sales tax (which defines certain items as taxable and others as not) State Income tax Fair tax (administered by who.... more than likely a federal agency like the IRS) I'm fresh out of patience with comments from a place of ignorance on this. The proposal is decades old. Familiarize yourself with it. www.fairtax.org
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 8, 2012 9:36:24 GMT -5
It will be the end of statism. When citizens can control how much tax they pay, when we can express our disapproval with a general consumption strike-- then we'll see a lot less lag time between when bad policy is proposed or passed and when it dies.
Well, corporatism and cronyism will end as well as likely seeing powerful lobby groups fall by the wayside. We will definitely see power returning to the people.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 8, 2012 9:37:28 GMT -5
I'm fresh out of patience with comments from a place of ignorance on this. The proposal is decades old. Familiarize yourself with it.
You are expecting a Certified Public Accountant to keep up with tax law and proposals?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 9:42:51 GMT -5
Another example of a myopic, misinformed view of how small businesses really operate.
They don't have to reduce their income by earning less. They need only hide more income.
If you think $460 is peanuts- then you pay it. Not only that, but if it's really just $460 per $10,000 then how do you propose to close the deficit with that?
The fact that you don't have much regard for $460 shows me why you're broke, btw.
But it's a lot more than $460 per $10,000. A lot more. And businesses react to attempts to punish them for earning more.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 9:43:41 GMT -5
I'm fresh out of patience with comments from a place of ignorance on this. The proposal is decades old. Familiarize yourself with it.You are expecting a Certified Public Accountant to keep up with tax law and proposals? (Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school)
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 8, 2012 9:52:35 GMT -5
I'm fresh out of patience with comments from a place of ignorance on this. The proposal is decades old. Familiarize yourself with it.You are expecting a Certified Public Accountant to keep up with tax law and proposals? (Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school) Don't get my post wrong... MWCPA is a great source for tax advice and the tax code. Anyone with tax questions over on the Tax Forum gets very good advice and sources from MW. Though he should stick to giving tax advice.... Fact is, all small mom & pops that operate on a cash basis are hiding income. My co-worker's dad was in the dry cleaning business. He has told me time and again, his father showed him how he ran his business. It was $1 for me, $1 for the govt. ie: the "$1 for me was unreported cash income.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 8, 2012 10:04:58 GMT -5
i will do my best to make sure that the "fair tax" never happens. i am convinced it will be the end of us if it does. edit: i love the fact that they use the words of that great economist and president CALVIN COOLIDGE in this video. the perfect spokesman for a totally insane idea that should be shitcanned like a $2 Chinese end wrench. It will be the end of statism. that is certain. it will also be the end of the republic. tax revenues would plummit, and we would be left with a shell of a government. which is perfectly fine if you are Grover Nordquist.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 8, 2012 10:07:19 GMT -5
But it's a lot more than $460 per $10,000. A lot more. And businesses react to attempts to punish them for earning more. elaborate. how is it a lot more?
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 10:17:42 GMT -5
But it's a lot more than $460 per $10,000. A lot more. And businesses react to attempts to punish them for earning more. elaborate. how is it a lot more? For starters, they lost most all other deductions at $125K- including the home mortgage interest deduction. But let's not get too distracted here, or bogged down in the details-- let's focus on the larger principle: higher and higher taxes destroy the work ethic. Around the time of our founding, Edward Gibbon was completing his work, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, in which he drew certain conclusions which are accepted by virtually all historians as fact. The number two reason for the fall of the Roman Empire was higher and higher taxation which destroyed the work ethic. (The number one was the rapid rise in divorce and the devaluation of the family- another staple of the inverted value system of the Democratic Party)
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 10:19:42 GMT -5
(Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school) Don't get my post wrong... MWCPA is a great source for tax advice and the tax code. Anyone with tax questions over on the Tax Forum gets very good advice and sources from MW. Though he should stick to giving tax advice.... Fact is, all small mom & pops that operate on a cash basis are hiding income. My co-worker's dad was in the dry cleaning business. He has told me time and again, his father showed him how he ran his business. It was $1 for me, $1 for the govt. ie: the "$1 for me was unreported cash income. It's not tax fraud I'm even referring to- though as the reward for cheating goes up, the more of that you get, too. I'm talking about money wasted in tax shelters, and frivolous spending because we'd rather have a board meeting in Maui than count it as taxable income.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Oct 8, 2012 10:20:05 GMT -5
The Chineses are destroying repetitive jobs in the kitchens, jobs up and coming chefs do not want to to.... interesting videos... though new jobs to maintain and fix these robots are being created...
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 10:20:54 GMT -5
But no matter how you slice and dice it, the "rich" pay a much, much, much greater share of federal income tax revenues than anyone else. It's to the point where it's so lop-sided that the only place to go right now is a middle class tax increase.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 8, 2012 10:24:16 GMT -5
Mwcpa is just as welcome to opine, and to offer advice in P&M as you are, SF. That's an absolute. mmhmm, P&M Moderator
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 8, 2012 10:27:11 GMT -5
I'm fresh out of patience with comments from a place of ignorance on this. The proposal is decades old. Familiarize yourself with it.You are expecting a Certified Public Accountant to keep up with tax law and proposals? (Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school) I hope you don't charge tuition at your 'law' school.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2012 10:30:37 GMT -5
For those that think capital plays a smaller role, or shouldnt get any benefit from their initial investment, consider this
How many people do you know, with a decent idea for a business, but that NEVER start it?
Why?
Capital to risk is the number one reason. Period.
So those ideas go by the wayside...and maybe someone else thinks about it, and actually makes a go of it, because they find somewhere to get the initial capital needed to start the business
When a business opens their doors to make a product or provide a service, they create jobs. Without investment in all forms, they will not open. No jobs will be created, and no taxes paid by the company, or their employees
Business is the key.....there is no economy without it. Government coffers will not be filled, jobs will not exist, and government is unsustainable by itself.
Now...the question is, if you increase the taxes on the higher ups, will they "invest" less of their capital in these endeavors?
In my opinion, yes. They will have less to invest from the taxes, and they will be more careful about new investments.
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 8, 2012 10:47:03 GMT -5
"For starters, they lost most all other deductions at $125K- including the home mortgage interest deduction." Really... got a cite in the law for this claim? I bet you cannot find one.... but what do I know, maybe you can teach me with you and your buddy's vast knowledge of the tax law... how often to you address tax matters, once, twice a year... yep, you must know more than me... isn't it Romney who is actually proposing to do away with loopholes and deductions... and it was both the Bush and Obama tax commissions that suggested curtailing the mortgage interest deductions, both other than the AMT issue for home equity borrowings and the million dollar cap (1.1 in some cases, and the cap relates to interest associated with the borrowing, not the allowable interest deduction), but what do I know.... "(Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school) " "Though he should stick to giving tax advice.... " and you should stick to not telling me what to do The opinions of two extremist who always pat themselves on the back and who often claim the sky is falling always have valuable than the opinions of others, there opinions are true and the rest of us are just plain stupid, needing to be schooled and being told what to do.... (one of these them claimed all rapes are fake and another who uses this as his tag line "to argue with the person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" speaks volumes about them, in my opinion)
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mwcpa
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Post by mwcpa on Oct 8, 2012 10:54:20 GMT -5
Mwcpa is just as welcome to opine, and to offer advice in P&M as you are, SF. That's an absolute. mmhmm, P&M Moderator Thanks for this.... we all know that those two poster opinions are much more valuable then the rest of ours, (in my opinion, in their mind that is, oops there I go, sharing an opinion, they will probably correct me again)....it's not the first time they tried to attack me with their vast knowledge of everything...
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 8, 2012 11:03:17 GMT -5
Everyone's opinion is welcome! We're not all going to agree. That's a given. However, sharing opinions and being exposed to different viewpoints is how we learn, and how we adjust, or solidify our own thinking. I don't believe there's anyone posting here who is omniscient, despite the arguments of some to the contrary.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Oct 8, 2012 11:09:03 GMT -5
For those that think capital plays a smaller role, or shouldnt get any benefit from their initial investment, consider this How many people do you know, with a decent idea for a business, but that NEVER start it? Why? Capital to risk is the number one reason. Period. So those ideas go by the wayside...and maybe someone else thinks about it, and actually makes a go of it, because they find somewhere to get the initial capital needed to start the business When a business opens their doors to make a product or provide a service, they create jobs. Without investment in all forms, they will not open. No jobs will be created, and no taxes paid by the company, or their employees Business is the key.....there is no economy without it. Government coffers will not be filled, jobs will not exist, and government is unsustainable by itself. Now...the question is, if you increase the taxes on the higher ups, will they "invest" less of their capital in these endeavors? In my opinion, yes. They will have less to invest from the taxes, and they will be more careful about new investments. There is no capital without labor. Investment should at least be taxed equally with labor. "Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." Lincoln
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 8, 2012 11:42:08 GMT -5
For those that think capital plays a smaller role, or shouldnt get any benefit from their initial investment, consider this How many people do you know, with a decent idea for a business, but that NEVER start it? Why? Capital to risk is the number one reason. Period. untrue. access to capital is the number one reason. period.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 8, 2012 11:44:37 GMT -5
elaborate. how is it a lot more? For starters, they lost most all other deductions at $125K- including the home mortgage interest deduction. But let's not get too distracted here, or bogged down in the details no no, please- i really want to know the details. are you talking about the AMT, here? you know that the AMT exists without Obama charging an extra 4.6%, right? in other words, you pay that anyway, so it doesn't have anything to do with the point being discussed.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Oct 8, 2012 11:51:47 GMT -5
I'm with you, dj. I really want to get bogged down in those details!
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 8, 2012 11:58:45 GMT -5
I'm with you, dj. I really want to get bogged down in those details! yeah, for once i would like to set aside "core principles" and discuss what is ACTUALLY GOING ON.
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AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP
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Post by AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP on Oct 8, 2012 12:00:40 GMT -5
"For starters, they lost most all other deductions at $125K- including the home mortgage interest deduction." Really... got a cite in the law for this claim? I bet you cannot find one.... but what do I know, maybe you can teach me with you and your buddy's vast knowledge of the tax law... how often to you address tax matters, once, twice a year... yep, you must know more than me... isn't it Romney who is actually proposing to do away with loopholes and deductions... and it was both the Bush and Obama tax commissions that suggested curtailing the mortgage interest deductions, both other than the AMT issue for home equity borrowings and the million dollar cap (1.1 in some cases, and the cap relates to interest associated with the borrowing, not the allowable interest deduction), but what do I know.... "(Wouldn't be the first time I've had to take a CPA to school) " "Though he should stick to giving tax advice.... " and you should stick to not telling me what to do The opinions of two extremist who always pat themselves on the back and who often claim the sky is falling always have valuable than the opinions of others, there opinions are true and the rest of us are just plain stupid, needing to be schooled and being told what to do.... (one of these them claimed all rapes are fake and another who uses this as his tag line "to argue with the person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" speaks volumes about them, in my opinion) I was only slightly off- guess it has been adjusted up. However, we're talking about tax increases on those earning over $250K so everyone I was talking about I was also correct in stating they lost their other deductions: www.financialsamurai.com/2011/05/25/mortgage-interest-deduction-limit-and-income-phaseout/
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