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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 12:31:02 GMT -5
MidJD is right, there are patient confidentially laws that medical providers must adhere to. Unless there's an immediate danger, the doctor or psychologist would have a lawsuit on their hands if they divulged patient history. I would personally just off myself if I had pedophillia urgers and couldn't control them. That's better than harming someone else. There was a pedophile that did talks for psychology classes. He had been sexually abused as child, but as a teen when he started to get these feeling, he told his parents and his uncles/aunts so he would never be around children because he was so horrified by the idea of doing this to anyone else. The money from the talks goes into a trust, he requested to be found mentally incompetent, to say under the control of his parents who manage the trust and the bodyguard(s) who makes sure he is never alone with a child, nor is he allowed to get within X ft of schools etc. He also willingly went through chemical castration. A pedophile like that can live, anyone else, I'm with Phoenix, off yourself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 12:35:51 GMT -5
You surprise me with this. If your sex drive was pointed at something wicked, wouldn't you want to be able to freely talk to therapists and find solutions that protected others from your desires, but also helped you to live a decent life? If castration is the only solution and you can't arrest people for what they desire, then you are left with dealing with sexually abused kids. Because most men are not going to ask for castration, no matter what they think. I was molested when I was a kid. It would have been nice if he had of asked for and received some kind of help before and maybe the thing not happen. Shoot him in the head or whatever one wants after the fact doesn't change history. Ther is still the abused kid. The article defines pedophilia as the thought not the act. I am sure no one thinks the act is okay or justified by any thing. The article says the desire is not chosen but inherent. The act is chosen. Or that is how I read it. Asking for help should be encouraged and perhaps studies on how pedophiles are created and whether they can be imprinted to a healthier sex preferences.Mostly, pedophilia, which is not all people who sexually abuse children, is caused, they believe by sexual abuse of the person. However, there has to be another or other factors because not all children who are sexually abused become pedophiles. Also, it is sex linked for most part (so majority of pedophiles are men). Keep in mind though, not all sexual abusers are pedophiles, because pedophilia is a psychological diagnosis.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 12:49:36 GMT -5
Pedophilia is as pedophilia does.
Prosecute people for the crimes they commit rather than the crimes we figure they're likely to commit if given enough time.
As for how would-be pedophiles suppress their impulses, that's between them, their families, their ministers, and their doctors. If the public is aware of a man's sexual predilections (which is unlikely unless he's acted on them in some public way), then he'll have to deal with the negative stigma.
Under no circumstances should his predilections be treated as normal or acceptable.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Sept 25, 2012 14:20:41 GMT -5
Is the general consensus, 'pedophiles are terrible, end of discussion'? I thought the article interesting. I don't think that's what anyone is saying. I think you're confusing the act of pedophilia with seeking help for pedophilia. Those are tow different issues. Pedophilia itself should be stigmatized. Seeking help for it falls under seeking help for a mental illness, similar to things like depression. If the discussion is "how should a mental health professional handle a patient who suffers from pedophilia" my answer is the same as any other mental health patient, with privacy. So yes, I do think someone who had these desires but hasn't acted on them yet should be able to seek professional help and not be stigmatized for such, or be put on the sex offender list, or have the authorities called. But that has more to do with the stigma of seeking help for mental illness than pedophilia itself. DramaQ is right, anyone serious about their addiction will do everything they can to remove themselves from what they are addicted to. In the case of a pedophile, they would do everything they can to not be with kids and especially not be alone with kids.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 25, 2012 14:26:31 GMT -5
If his pedilictions come From being abused as a child and he has not acted on them then he is victimized again.Well if someone announced to me they were having impure thoughts about kids, I am going to take action to make sure my kids are never alone with that person. I'd feel bad for the person if it was because they were abused, but once the cat is out of the bag yeah I am going to look at you funny. It's not vicitmizing them all over again, it's being pragmatic. Like I said before even if you assure me you are getting treatment I am not going to put that temption (my kid) in front of you anymore than I would put a bottle of vicodin on the table and leave my DH with it. If they are truly interested in dealing with it then they'll understand why I behave the way I do. Look at gin's post on the subject. The guy recognizes he can't be alone/around kids and has taken many steps to prevent himself from acting on his thoughts. If the discussion is "how should a mental health professional handle a patient who suffers from pedophillia" my answer is the same as any other mental health patient, with privacy. I do think someone who had these desires but hasn't acted on them yet should be able to seek professional help and not be stigmatized for so, or be put on the sex offender list, or have the authorities called. But that has more to do with the stigma of seeking help for mental illness than pedophillia itself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 15:00:54 GMT -5
Pedophilia is as pedophilia does. Prosecute people for the crimes they commit rather than the crimes we figure they're likely to commit if given enough time. As for how would-be pedophiles suppress their impulses, that's between them, their families, their ministers, and their doctors. If the public is aware of a man's sexual predilections (which is unlikely unless he's acted on them in some public way), then he'll have to deal with the negative stigma. Under no circumstances should his predilections be treated as normal or acceptable. Read post 34 for how unlikely he will be found out. If his pedilictions come From being abused as a child and he has not acted on them then he is victimized again. Pedophilia is as pedophilia does is only true if you ignore the definition of pedophilia. It is defined as attraction not an act. Not true. See the bolded below. According the DSM IV " The paraphilic focus of Pedophilia involves sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 years or younger). The individual with Pedophilia must be age 16 years or older and at least 5 years older than the child. For individuals in late adolescence with Pedophilia, no precise age difference is specified, and clinical judgment must be used; both the sexual maturity of the child and the age difference must be taken into account. Individuals with Pedophilia generally report an attraction to children of a particular age range. Some individuals prefer males, others females, and some are aroused by both males and females. Those attracted to females usually prefer 8- to 10-year-olds, whereas those attracted to males usually prefer slightly older children. Pedophilia involving female victims is reported more often than Pedophilia involving male victims." "Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger). [And:] The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty. [And:] The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 15:24:30 GMT -5
I don't know what 'paraphillic focus' is. I looked up 'pedophilia' Before I posted and the definition was attraction, urge etc. Not act. I think your definition is something else, Aybe definition of a particular crime. Pedophilia is a psychological term, not normally a legal term. Some areas may be misusing the term to mean sexual abuse, but if we are talking about the actually psychological disorder, the definition is from the DSM IV, which is what defines psychological disorders. You may have found a layman's definition, which is not wholly accurate. A paraphillic focus is defined as-a sexual dysfunctions or behaviors that stem from a deviant sexual object/person.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 15:30:35 GMT -5
It would appear, per gin's reference to the DSM, that action is necessary.
Either way, "pedophilia is as pedophilia does" is my definition.
Define "victimized again". You're saying he has urges, he keeps them in check, nobody knows about them. How does that make him a victim?
In the case of post #34, the medical professional obviously made an assessment that this man was a public threat. Psychiatrists may want to look at revising their guidelines as to when they report patients, depending on how effective counseling is at preventing impulse from becoming action. Let them do so.
Frankly, the fact that a man has sought counseling is an indication that he's having difficulty managing (why on Earth would he admit something so damning otherwise?) And if he truly wants help, a part of this is recognizing that he will be treated like a threat, that he is in danger of being reported if the professional feels he's a threat to others, and that he may be subjected to extreme measures (such as monitoring, or career restrictions, or chemical castration) to prevent him from becoming a pedophile.
He is not a pedophile until he acts, and how he deals with his demons is between him, his family, his minister, and his doctor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 16:01:56 GMT -5
CHEMICAL castration. There are drugs a person can take that will reduce the urges, and with therapy help some to live without acting on their predelictions.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 16:02:19 GMT -5
Maybe we need a new word for that?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Sept 25, 2012 16:18:04 GMT -5
Considering that "covering their ass" is a legal requirement for the profession under those circumstances, the two are one and the same.
So be it. We're talking about the group of men with pedophilic impulses, who believe pedophilia is wrong, who can't suppress the urges independently, who believe they can suppress the urges if they talk about them with a psychiatrist, but who a priori reject the advice of psychiatrists because sacrifices would need to be made.
This describes what? Thirty people out of three hundred million in the continental US?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2012 18:42:24 GMT -5
Gin was the pedophile who spoke at yor college a pedophile by your definition? He was not allowed on our campus because we had a childcare center on campus, he was at a nearby, private university. "The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty." He met the the bolded criteria, and was quite clear that he could not control himself and would abuse a child which was abhorrent to him. He had illegally watch child porn which is what caused him to come out to his parents for help. The problem with pedophilia is that they WILL offend, and reoffend, and escalate if not already at the child sexual abuse stage, unless stopped by someone else. That is why child porn is illegal, because it is well known in the field, that those who use child porn (actual child (5-14) porn, not daddy kink or whatever), will, if not stopped, sexually abuse a minor.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 5:49:38 GMT -5
If pedophiles are created as you say, don't you think all the more reason to have sympathy. No one is suggesting sympathy for the act, just for the desire. People can control the act not the desire.
Until an individual begins to reflect and asks questions of themselves.. "What is the matter with me?" Not only does this apply to the pedophilia, but anyone who's lived through a traumatic childhood of any other sort. The article says some are afraid to ask for the help they need because people will believe them guilty. Read Rukh's statement below, which seems sensible. I do have sympathy for the adult pedophile who struggle with the desire who've never acted upon the desire, yes. But the actual offender, who understands the act violates a child's person on so many levels and is an illegal offense, who held back the desire for as long as they could and one day decides, I just gotta follow through.. That known offender has now allowed me to compartmentalize how I label them.. Sympathy may still be there, but the actual offense puts the offender into an entirely different category.. Like criminal.I strongly believe, most sexually abused children from the onset of abuse are so shaken at first, knowing innately something was not right about the violation, but too frightened to say so to anyone. Couple that, with that same sexually abused child living in a home, holding onto what Uncle Mike did to them and being raised in a tumultuous home environment where no one suspects Uncle Mike.. That child feels unloved, neglected and at the same time keeps his/her little secret to him/herself about Uncle Mike. The child's mind is incapable of processing either world.. I believe the child either grows to abhor and blame themselves throughout their life and wonder what they may have done to warrant the abuse... Or feeds and nourishes the act(s) of violation lent him from Uncle Mike, and finds escaping comfort from his volatile world, via Uncle Mike's grooming.. I do feel great sympathy for that child.. Great sympathy for the child hidden in the adult pedophile.. Yes. The 64 thousand dollar question is how can a society prevent the offense in the first place, whether an offender seeks counsel or not before acting upon the desire.. I believe through educating ourselves of what the groomer looks like and realize it can be anyone.. Educate our children to speak out loud and boldly to anyone concerned about any touch feely adult they are uncomfortable with.. Teach our little and big children the areas on their bodies no one should ever come near, etc.. And we as parents and adults to watch over our children as best we can.. Be ever so wary of anyone who is so mesmerized over your children or teen.. You could be looking at your child/teenage/semi adult, seemingly gift horse, right in the mouth.. It would be ideal to catch the troubled child from the earliest onset of abuse or that same abused child turned adult before any acts are committed and commit both to counsel.. In the meantime we must deal with the offense and the offender accordingly.. Learning how to separate the offender from the the crime is possible and is why the professional counselor is able to counsel even with the most vile offenders.. It is what they do..
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 26, 2012 6:52:06 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I don't understand how, if you destigmatize the thoughts, you will get more people to try to stop their behavior? If you want to destigmatize bondage fantasies, fine... so long as it occurs between two concenting adults, I don't care if whips and chains lose their stigma. But sex with children SHOULD be thought of as untenable. There is NO legitimate outlet for that type of predeliction. Disapproval and distaste are appropriate and should be maintained, with vigor. The article isn't saying we should destigmatize the crime. They want us to destigmatize admitting to being sexually aroused by children. If you feel safe in admitting that you have these thoughts to a psychologist, perhaps the psychologist can help you learn how to avoid the thoughts, or something you can do when the thoughts DO occur so that you don't harm children. I think right now anyone with these kinds of thoughts would never, ever admit them to another living person out of fear that they would be jailed just for having the thoughts. It would be helpful if these people felt safe in confiding to professionals who could help them avoid hurting kids. That doesn't make the behavior 'good.' It used to be, long long ago when I was little, that no one discussed breast cancer. Women who got it hid it, other people whispered about it. How many women avoided getting treatment because they were ashamed to discuss it with their doctor? Maybe if people got past the shame of having bad thoughts about kids they could also ask for treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 7:16:59 GMT -5
Again, if they got past the shame for bad thoughts, why would they seek treatment? ... I think this is about the mental health profession, destigmatizing and improving treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 7:24:38 GMT -5
Fear is a powerful weapon of refrain. Even when people seek professional counsel for reasons other then the tendencies discussed here, tend to hold back their deepest secrets so even the counselor won't think them the most despicable.. All of us who've posted, I believe, on this thread has at least one deep dark secret we've promised ourselves about ourselves we will take to our grave.. Why? Because of the shame of it and fear of what man may dare think of us if we tell it.. There are just some things too difficult to utter about ourselves to others.. And equally, some of the acts we hear of others committing, too difficult to handle mentally by us, those same folks with secrets. The topic being discussed just happens to be one of those acts that cause many heads to tilt or spin.. It is the unnatural thoughts that baffles those who are not challenged with the same thought pattern and the criminal act that literally enrages folks to react beast-like after hearing a child has been harmed in that manner..
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Sept 26, 2012 8:13:36 GMT -5
Everyone talks about the perpetrator and how we should pity them. How about the victims? They live with this forever. This act is a selfish act. It doesn't bring joy to anyone but the perpetrator.
In the words of the famous bunny rabbit, " de spic a ble"
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 26, 2012 8:20:22 GMT -5
From what I have read in psych classes, pedophiles think they are showing LOVE and to them, it is LOVE. We aren't talking here about the cruel people who victimize children, they may be called pedophiles because their victims are children but they are just criminals looking for a weak victim.
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mrsdutt
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Post by mrsdutt on Sept 26, 2012 14:35:07 GMT -5
LOVE is 2 sided. LOVE is shown with a hug or a kind act. It is not introducing a child to things that are only meant for adults. That is insanity. Ask any child who has been affected by this LOVE. It's abhorrent. Very few ever recover from this act of LOVE. Are victims in your psych books too? I can't believe anyone would fall for this crap. Are we suppose to form understanding and compassion for the perpetrators? Sick sick sick.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 26, 2012 14:48:07 GMT -5
In Pennsylvania we have a Sex Offender Assessment Board. Anyone who pleads guilty to or is convicted of a sex crime has to undergo an assessment before sentencing. The outcome of the assessment helps the judge to determine if the defendant will be labeled as a "sexually violent predator." The defendant didn't necessarily have to engage in violence during the commission of the crime to be labeled as an SVP.
I've sat through much testimony regarding these offenders and their mental health evaluations. Most of them don't think or aren't willing to admit they've done something wrong, even after being arrested and convicted. Part of their illness is the inability to grasp the abnormality or wrongness of not only their feelings, but their actions as well. The recidivisim rate for pedophiles is extremely high. I don't think they can be "fixed," so to speak.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 26, 2012 14:56:47 GMT -5
I am told that pedophiles actually have a lower rate of recidvism that other criminals.
Maybe because people know they are sex offenders and take precautions?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 15:01:08 GMT -5
Actually no. As a matter of fact it is a big part of my life not having things like that.
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kgb18
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Post by kgb18 on Sept 26, 2012 15:18:03 GMT -5
Interesting. The DAs here tell me the recidivism rate is high. Many of the cases I've covered in recent years the defendant has committed similar acts in the past. I've found some studies. The rate seems to vary based on the profile of the offender and the type of offense. Exhibitionists have an incredibly high rate and incidents of incest recidivism is a smaller percentage. I spend a great deal of time writing about sex offenders. It seems to be a huge problem in our county. Our pizza delivery guy is in jail awaiting trial for molesting children in his family. He was on probation for doing the same thing 5 five years ago. FWIW, I don't think I have any deep, dark, take-it-to-my-grave secrets either. Maybe I'm just boring.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 26, 2012 15:24:22 GMT -5
I don't have a deep dark secret either. I've been trying to come up with one but I got nothing. I'd make lousy soap opera material.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2012 15:49:04 GMT -5
Interesting. The DAs here tell me the recidivism rate is high. Many of the cases I've covered in recent years the defendant has committed similar acts in the past. I've found some studies. The rate seems to vary based on the profile of the offender and the type of offense. Exhibitionists have an incredibly high rate and incidents of incest recidivism is a smaller percentage. I spend a great deal of time writing about sex offenders. It seems to be a huge problem in our county. Our pizza delivery guy is in jail awaiting trial for molesting children in his family. He was on probation for doing the same thing 5 five years ago. FWIW, I don't think I have any deep, dark, take-it-to-my-grave secrets either. Maybe I'm just boring. According to the psychology research into this, pediphiles will reoffend, unless they are stopped. I don't know about the amount of pediphiles that get recharged, but I do know the research shows they will continue unless someone else stops them.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 26, 2012 16:09:51 GMT -5
Does anyone remember that show years ago on where the pedophile was talking and said he could have a child within twenty minutes of being released? He flat out said he couldn't be cured. When they will tell you they can't be cured, believe them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 5:20:48 GMT -5
Actually no. As a matter of fact it is a big part of my life not having things like that.
I don't have a deep dark secret either. I've been trying to come up with one but I got nothing. I'd make lousy soap opera material.
Latebloomer.. DramaQ. Maybe using words like "deep dark secret" were a bit too strong describing anything, most of us have, at least one of, a secret. One about ourselves we'd rather not share with anyone else in the world. Deep dark is relative to your world environment and how your standard of values were established.. Deep dark secret by no means relate to anything criminal either.. To say the least as matter of fact.
If you, Latebloomer and DramaQ are void of any secret you are ashamed to share with anyone, I must honestly say, you are the very first two I know of who doesn't..
Hypothetically speaking- A secret could be something as simple as... Me plucking my neighbors' prize flower from their landscape and she gathering neighbors immediately around her.. Me being included in her immediates. The flower owner pleads with us to share anything we saw as suspicious to our neighborhood, as she vows to take the matter to the extent the law will allow..
I say nothing.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 27, 2012 12:30:24 GMT -5
Does anyone remember that show years ago on where the pedophile was talking and said he could have a child within twenty minutes of being released? He flat out said he couldn't be cured. When they will tell you they can't be cured, believe them. I'm not an expert but I believe this can't be cured, either. The person has to be willing to control his urges. I would imagine there are plenty of people walking around with thoughts about kids in their heads that they never act on (and will never act on) because they know it's wrong and hurts kids. We don't know who those people are because they never commit any crimes. Perhaps it would be helpful if those people felt like they could talk to a professional about how to eliminate those unwanted feelings without fear of being reported to the police or added to a list of criminals just for having thoughts. Then there are the other pediphiles who don't recognize what they're doing is wrong and who think they are just expressing love for the child. I always thought it would be useful to have "Pedephila Island." We could push these people out of a plane with a parachute and drop them onto the island to live out their natural life surrounding by other pedephiles. We would drop down medical supplies and tools for farming and building houses, etc., and they could talk on phones to people on the mainland, but no physical interaction between them and everyone else. They wouldn't exactly be in prison, but they couldn't get out, either. Or if isolating an island would be hard, we could rope off one of the lesser-used states and make that our holding pen for all our non-repairable criminal types. Didn't they make a movie where New York became a prison?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 27, 2012 12:34:11 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree about "deep dark" secrets. While not saying anything about the flower is wrong, it is not a secret that is on the level of having sexual thoughts about a child. Like it or not sexual thoughts about a child are despicable. If they weren't then why would anyone seek help for it?
I still can't really think of anything that I would be ashamed to share with anyone because the things I feel worst about are already public knowledge. Most people I hung out with in high school know the first one and at least three other people know the most recent.
I did stupid stuff as a kid, we all do, but I can't think of anything I did that if I brought it up now would be a source of deep shame and humilation that would make people think differently of me.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2012 12:40:07 GMT -5
Actually no. As a matter of fact it is a big part of my life not having things like that.I don't have a deep dark secret either. I've been trying to come up with one but I got nothing. I'd make lousy soap opera material.Latebloomer.. DramaQ. Maybe using words like " deep dark secret" were a bit too strong describing anything, most of us have, at least one of, a secret. One about ourselves we'd rather not share with anyone else in the world. Deep dark is relative to your world environment and how your standard of values were established.. Deep dark secret by no means relate to anything criminal either.. To say the least as matter of fact. If you, Latebloomer and DramaQ are void of any secret you are ashamed to share with anyone, I must honestly say, you are the very first two I know of who doesn't.. Hypothetically speaking- A secret could be something as simple as... Me plucking my neighbors' prize flower from their landscape and she gathering neighbors immediately around her.. Me being included in her immediates. The flower owner pleads with us to share anything we saw as suspicious to our neighborhood, as she vows to take the matter to the extent the law will allow.. I say nothing. What are you talking about?? Seriously you seem to be taking a long winding journey and I have no idea where you are going with it. You originally said everyone has a deep dark secret they are scared to share with the world for fear of how they will be judged. I say I don't and I don't think most people do.
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