wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 10:56:58 GMT -5
Some interesting threads recently on spousal relationships and money. Timely for me.
So here is mine. I don’t know what to make of DW. Is she naïve? Stupid? Out to annoy me?
Example 1: On occasion DW asks about refinancing our mortgage. Our 30 year mortgage is 2.5 years old, rate is 4.875%. I have investigated various scenarios and the one I like is to refi for 15 years, 3%, plus pay an additional lump sum “X” such the payment on new refi mortgage will be the same as our current payment. I compare this with maintaining our current mortgage but paying the same lump sum “X” now; the two cash flows are the same (I haven’t recently investigated the scenario of investing “X” in the stock market, etc; I am just accepting that I won’t be able to match the rate on the current mortgage over the short-term foreseeable future). I compare these two scenarios, see that there is some savings to the refi (about $20K) but that it’s not sufficient to make my greed gene kick in. On top of that, there are out-of-pocket costs to a refi, in this case about $4800. So the $20K savings is now only about $15K. There seems to be little urgency in this and it may be a wash in the end. We discussed this some months ago, I showed her the spreadsheets and calculations. We accepted that there was little point in pursuing a refi under the conditions. Then the other day she brought this up again, apparently having totally forgotten our previous discussion(s) on this. Okay, so I investigated with Wells-Fargo, other mortgagors, revamped my spreadsheets, got my mind back into this analysis. And I presented her with documented scenarios with my spreadsheets. I was told this was “passive-aggressive”. I don’t know what this was all about. “I was getting the facts, ma’am”.
Example 2: Only a few months back I was trying to find some places for my mom to park some cash, around $80K. I shared my explorations with DW: what the rates on CDs were (how awful they were, and long durations necessary), and it seemed that a plain jane ING savings account was one of the best choices considering high rate and flexibility in changing course. We ourselves also have a large amount in cash, also parked in ING. The other night, late in bed and I’m sleepy, DW brought up “oh, we should do something with that money”, then mentioning “GIC”s …I believe she was using Canadian jargon for “guaranteed investment certificate” rather than the US term “guaranteed investment contract”, which is a whole ‘other animal. The Canadian GIC is more like a CD from a US bank. So why bother bringing up CD’s when we’d seen only 3-4 months ago that these are pitiful versus, say, ING. Did she forget? So I explained, a bit forcefully as I was sleepy and I’m wondering why was she bringing this up at that late hour, that the CD rates are ridiculously low and why tie up funds for years to get anything approaching 1%? Then she just gave up and would not explain to me any counterpoint, she would not explain why she was thinking of GICs/CDs when we’d just been down that road a few months before. She just rolled over and gave up. I don’t understand. She did not seem angry or perturbed about it the next day (unlike me, I’m still perturbed).
So what’s this all about? I don’t know what to make of DW. Is she naïve? Stupid? Out to annoy me?
As background to this, she does not work. I wanted her to take over the household finances (tracking, pay bills, etc) this year but she adamantly refused (this would have been a big help to me to get rid of this burden).
Perhaps I give her too much credit and she really is as naïve as some of this sounds to me. Perhaps I should be gentle rather than getting annoyed.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Sept 18, 2012 11:06:15 GMT -5
I'm not gentle with my spouse when he acts like an idiot.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 18, 2012 11:08:14 GMT -5
"So I explained, a bit forcefully as I was sleepy and I’m wondering why was she bringing this up at that late hour"
I'm not sure, but I would suspect this is where your problem lies.
I also suspect that your wife doesn't want to take over paying the household bills because she expects you will be looking over her shoulder, monitoring her actions and 'speaking forcefully' when she veers from your idea of the right path.
I don't like it when DH speaks forcefully to me. Discussions work better with me.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Sept 18, 2012 11:12:38 GMT -5
Sounds like you have some relationship issues. Calling your wife naive or stupid doesn't really help.
And I can't get past "the savings is only $15k" thing. If my husband said we would save $15k on a refi I would start filling out the paperwork right away.
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 11:13:47 GMT -5
well, she may not want me looking over her shoulder, but this is what she does to me: chivvy. that's the word. I am going along, peacefully minding my own business; then she comes up and says this and that, coming up with some schemes to spend money; the effect on me is like when I've been at the salad bar and there are people hovering (and hoovering) around reaching and bumping and jostling and generally being annoying. "Leave me alone, please". I mean, we have our budget, our plans, why does DW need to regularly come up with new schemes to annoy me with ...but then disclaims any desire to take part in the responsibilities of executing these plans and new ideas?
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 11:19:38 GMT -5
And I can't get past "the savings is only $15k" thing. If my husband said we would save $15k on a refi I would start filling out the paperwork right away. $15K, hypothetical, over 15 years? And certainly reduced by the loss of eventual income tax deductions (eventually have to take standard deduction in lieu of itemizing). The perceived attractiveness or value diminishes and is only hypothetical. And there is the additional lump sum payment that could be invested in an alternate investment. As I say, it's a wash. But I went to great effort to prepare the analyses. And to have it called "passive aggressive"? That sucks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 11:20:36 GMT -5
The key to any successful presentation is to know you audience.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Sept 18, 2012 11:21:37 GMT -5
Why not just let her scheme and tune it out? DH comes up with ideas all the time, but I know that he's just talking off the top of his head. I let his ideas run their course and they are never brought up again. Why aggravate myself by "talking sternly" to him when I know if I just shut up he'll eventually run out of steam all by himself?
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 11:28:22 GMT -5
Why not just let her scheme and tune it out? DH comes up with ideas all the time, but I know that he's just talking off the top of his head. I let his ideas run their course and they are never brought up again. Why aggravate myself by "talking sternly" to him when I know if I just shut up he'll eventually run out of steam all by himself? Excellent idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 11:31:44 GMT -5
For her own sake your wife should learn how to handle money and do this type of research. I don't think you're the one to teach her though. I'd ask her to take a class through a CC or join something like The Money Club ( www.moneyclubs.com/index.html ) where she has to interact in person. It's a pretty small thing for one spouse to do for another. Once she has a basic grasp of finances your conversations will change because you'll be talking on a more equal level.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 18, 2012 11:44:45 GMT -5
Next time she asks you about something, why don't you have HER do the research on it?
The way I read things, she suggests things, you do the research and make the decisions. By tossing the research back into her lap, you're giving her the ability to understand how YOU reached the conclusions that you've reached.
Yeah, she may be remaking the wheel.....but it's also empowering her too.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 18, 2012 12:09:05 GMT -5
So here is mine. I don’t know what to make of DW. Is she naïve? Stupid? Out to annoy me?
Angry because you're disparaging her on a public message board? Hmm, choices.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Sept 18, 2012 12:14:04 GMT -5
well, she may not want me looking over her shoulder, but this is what she does to me: chivvy. that's the word. I am going along, peacefully minding my own business; then she comes up and says this and that, coming up with some schemes to spend money; the effect on me is like when I've been at the salad bar and there are people hovering (and hoovering) around reaching and bumping and jostling and generally being annoying. "Leave me alone, please". I mean, we have our budget, our plans, why does DW need to regularly come up with new schemes to annoy me with ...but then disclaims any desire to take part in the responsibilities of executing these plans and new ideas? I have no idea what she is thinking but I'd ask her and if that doesn't work people in her life who know her well that might have a clue - parents, longtime friends... I'd go with simple and to the point. Women tend to muse out loud so she might just be remembering she wanted to look into mortgages or whatever. For the refiancing I'd ask 'Why do you ask?' 'I looked into it and it really doesn't pay at this time, etc. etc.'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 12:22:03 GMT -5
Don't most people know if their spouse is stupid or naive? most people don't know if they are stupid or naive.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2012 12:22:19 GMT -5
In my case it depends on the day.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Sept 18, 2012 12:34:01 GMT -5
Perhaps your wife isn't interested in finances?
I take care of like 95% of my families finances. DH pays the cable bill and car insurance. He isn't ignorant, nor stupid. He just isn't interested in finances, in general. Fine. I run major decisions by him. He mostly just nods and says OK.
He knows how to pay bills, make a budget, etc and knows all our account information. He even runs it by me when he's going to spend like $5 at a home improvement store.
Now, I could get up in arms and get mad because he does not care about money like I do. Or I could get upset because he doesn't remember everything I tell him word for word and then wonder if he's stupid, even though he remembers a million random baseball stats and can recite them on a moment's notice.. Or I could just say "Meh" and move on.
Guess which one I do?
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 18, 2012 12:40:24 GMT -5
I'm guessing that she knows you think she's stupid. She's trying to make an honest effort to get involved and learn something without running the risk of fucking things up, but then you come back with, "Honey, you're an idiot and I'm going to prove why."
I'd have already filed for divorce.
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 12:45:48 GMT -5
So here is mine. I don’t know what to make of DW. Is she naïve? Stupid? Out to annoy me?Angry because you're disparaging her on a public message board? Hmm, choices. yeah, like that's the first time something like that has ever happened around here.
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 12:48:18 GMT -5
I'm guessing that she knows you think she's stupid. She's trying to make an honest effort to get involved and learn something without running the risk of fucking things up, but then you come back with, "Honey, you're an idiot and I'm going to prove why." I'd have already filed for divorce. Amazing how much you know about us. It's probably more indicative of your own relationships. No, I don't call her an idiot, not in the least. It's more like I am the being called the idiot.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Sept 18, 2012 12:52:51 GMT -5
Or maybe your wife has early onset Alzheimers or dementia... Okay, not likely, but if she seems to be forgetting lots of things from just a few months ago, maybe she should have a medical exam. If she brings up finances when you're about to sleep or don't have time to talk about it, just say that. There's no need to be mean and essentially call her stupid for not remembering (even if she's not mad about it in the morning). Instead, just say, "I'm half asleep right now, can we talk about this in the morning?" It's possible that she's trying to become more interested in the family finances (since you want her to take them over) and she's reading finance boards or watching finance shows, and these are things that are being brought up there. Because they are coming from an expert, and perhaps called something slightly different, she's not making the connection between what you discussed before and this. Next time something like this happens, I'd suggest the response of "We talked about this a few months ago and after doing the research, we decided it wasn't worth it. But if you think things might have changed, I'd be more than happy to send you my spreadsheet, and you can do the research, and then we can talk about it again." I will say that I am constantly coming up with new plans and "schemes" for our money. But because I am the keeper of the spreadsheets, I run the scenarios and send them to DH. Most of the time, he doesn't respond because we both know that as much as I like doing the scenarios and coming up with schemes, we're on the path that's best for us at this moment in time. Once we're completely out of probate on his mom's estate, things might change. Once things move forward on the adoption plan, things might change. But for now, we don't need to change what we're doing. Again, none of that stops me from coming up with the new schemes
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Loopdilou
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Post by Loopdilou on Sept 18, 2012 12:59:34 GMT -5
I'm guessing that she knows you think she's stupid. She's trying to make an honest effort to get involved and learn something without running the risk of fucking things up, but then you come back with, "Honey, you're an idiot and I'm going to prove why." I'd have already filed for divorce. Amazing how much you know about us. It's probably more indicative of your own relationships. No, I don't call her an idiot, not in the least. It's more like I am the being called the idiot. Actions speak louder than words.. I'm saying that is probably her impression of you when you do things like pulling out the spreadsheets.
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kittypuppymom
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Post by kittypuppymom on Sept 18, 2012 12:59:59 GMT -5
Maybe you come across sounding like you think she is stupid. Do you micromanage the books? Have you let her go completely to run with it? I am thinking you double check her all the time. $15K to her is not a wash as you put it. Who does the taxes? I am betting that you do it. So she is not understanding that either. I agree that she needs to take some classes. So someone other then you needs to teach her how to manage the finances. If this is a real burden as you say it is then you walk away from the books and let her handle it.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 18, 2012 13:17:23 GMT -5
Dh can be very similar to this. I've tried every possible way to get him involved in the day to day money management. I've done it for over 15 years, and honestly I'm just freaking over it. Needless to say that he is still not involved much (although he does actually check the account balance these days before spending).
So if that's the way its going to be--fine I can deal with it. My frustration comes in because there are weeks where I swear every sentence dh has starts with, "I (or we) really need x" and then something that costs money that we can't afford right now is listed out. He's welcome to try to come up with a way to fit 'x' in the budget, but I'm done trying to rearrange things to make 'x' happen regardless of what we did have budgeted.
OP--can you try to set up a monthly meeting with your wife to do the budget together? Then at least she is involved in your day to day stuff, and she could start to take some things over. Or ask her to find a place to park your mom's money and just go with her decision. If she doesn't feel like she is asking permission she may show that she wants to be involved more, but doesn't have the confidence to do it right now.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 18, 2012 13:36:10 GMT -5
DF is great with long term goals and investing. I am TERRIBLE! But I am good with monthly budgeting. Example is I actually had to start an envelope system for my car insurance and Christmas. Not like I don't know both are coming! But they get here and I "oh shit." we all have our strengths and weaknesses. What are yours and what are your wife's ?
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wodehouse
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Post by wodehouse on Sept 18, 2012 13:43:25 GMT -5
Zib, my wife is very smart and very wise, especially in 'reading' people. She has many strengths where I have weaknesses. And I guess vice versa. I regularly let her know about her strengths as well. She does have weaknesses too...and so do I.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Sept 18, 2012 13:44:33 GMT -5
"As background to this, she does not work. I wanted her to take over the household finances (tracking, pay bills, etc) this year but she adamantly refused (this would have been a big help to me to get rid of this burden)."
Well, as a first step, and as a way to try to understand her thought process, I would ask her about the household finances.
Just say (very nicely, not forcefully) that you would really like for her to take over the household bills. Then sit back, stop talking, and LISTEN to what she says.
I expect you will hear one of two things 1) finances bore me silly, do I really have to do it? or 2) I hate having you look over my shoulder and second guess every little thing I do when I try to do anything financial. I'd rather you just continue to do them and avoid the arguments.
If the problem is #1 you might be stuck with doing the family finances. DH is that way, he HATES being responsible for paying bills (always forgets, then pays them late) and HATES trying to budget anything. He loves to save money, but that's the extent of his financial enjoyment. It's just how he's wired. Maybe your DW is the same way. It sucks being the financially responsible one, but there it is.
If the problem is #2 you need to re-evaluate how you interact with your wife. If you want her to pay the bills, let her pay them and stay out of the way. Don't go back and review them. Don't second guess her. Don't require her to report back to you. Don't talk forcefully to her when she doesn't do exactly what you think is right. Just let her run with it and stay out of it.
Imagine if you want to learn how to make a pie crust. Your wife shows you how to make one, but then she won't leave the kitchen. Stands there and makes snide comments as you get flour all over, or when you use a different pie pan than she would use, or because you rolled the crust a little too thick or a little two thin for her taste. You'd want her to stay the hell out of the kitchen, and when you set that pie down on the table, all you need from her is glowing approval, no matter how crappy it tastes - because at least, you made the effort, you're trying to learn, etc, etc.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 18, 2012 13:49:58 GMT -5
Trouble with that system is what happens when a spouse is no longer there to do it all?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Sept 18, 2012 14:08:34 GMT -5
So here is mine. I don’t know what to make of DW. Is she naïve? Stupid? Out to annoy me?Angry because you're disparaging her on a public message board? Hmm, choices. yeah, like that's the first time something like that has ever happened around here. And I find it distasteful every time.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 18, 2012 14:30:35 GMT -5
Neither is a good thing. You need to know about finances as well as how to shop for groceries.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Sept 18, 2012 14:34:23 GMT -5
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